End Times Confusing - Preterism

[Eugene]

Jesus "coming in the clouds" was not a literal event, he did not literally come in the clouds.

Really? Would that also apply to Exodus 13:21 "And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night"

Strong's - 3507 nefelh nephele nef-el'-ay

from 3509; TDNT-4:902,628; n f

AV-cloud 26; 26

1) a cloud
1a) used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness

 

[Hope of glory]

Endtimesduet32/70AD (response to post 320)

Thanks for the encouragement my friend. Sometimes I feel like Elijah brother, "I'm the only one left", LOL. May the "gospel of the kingdom" be forever preached, we are his "kingdom come", AMEN!

I'm sure you have seen it already, but I have formed an argument in my post 305 that the "futurists" are avoiding. It is an airtight argument which proves that when Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" ge was not referring to his "second coming". It also validates our Masters words in Math.24:34....."this generation will not pass till all these things be fulfilled". May He reward you richly for your love of the truth!

A couple of thoughts:

Concerning Luke 21:25
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring"

Isa.5:25-30

"Therefore the anger of the Lord is kindled against his people....and he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far....and in that day they shall roar against them like the ROARING OF THE SEA, and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof"

Concerning Luke 21:24

"....and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the GENTILES (same word as Heathen), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

Ezek.30:3 "For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day, it shall be the time of the HEATHEN (same word as
Gentiles)

(Of course we know that the "day of the Lord" was fulfilled in 70ad....
Math.24:35....42-43....1thes.5:2.....2Pet.3:10
But also speaks of the "the Lords day", the realm of Spirit in which we live....Rev.1:10....1Thes.5:5....John 12:36....Eph.5:8.....

Fellowship is great "in light"!!!!

 

[jasoncran]

man's theology?

What do you say about a prophecy being fulfilled more than once. In case, 70 AD and in the future again?
Is there any Biblical reasoning behind this?

none, why? the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross. also the signs that the first jewish/ gentile audience had to look for would be something that they knew to look for otherwise its gibberish to them. why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice?

 

[jasoncran]

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

I got you now. Since God's people in Revelation 18:4 are told to come out of her, wouldn't she be a church? Held responsible for the death of the apostles, which would it be? Revelation Chapters Two and Three describe the judgment of them; good or bad. Supposedly what church claims to be the church of the apostles? Providing even one apostle lived past 70 AD, seemingly this would not apply to them at that time, but at a later time. We do read of Thyatira in Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Just some thoughts to toss around.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

uhm its a city. not a church. why? uhm look at the words of jesus and that verse. prophets and apostles. the Pharisees thought they wouldn't kill the former if they were alive then and they operated in that same spirit when they killed the Lord. so that is why that says that.

you also have to deal with what modern culture when they mourn tosses soil on their heads and would cry alas and so forth.you would also have to deal with the the uses of a millstone, and so forth. remember Jerusalem was destroyed and it was rebuilt for the romans and didn't have jews return to it for years after and the Jerusalem he speaks off is the leadership, and the people too. remember that with that verse. is modern Jerusalem like that? No. it has a mixture of people and is quite secular. nothing like the ancient one.

 

[JLB]

JLB (reply to post 315)

You said: "If the temple was destroyed during the great tribulation, as you said, by the time Matthew 24:30 had occurred, the temple and city had already been destroyed"

I said:
"The destruction of the temple was the sign they Jesus had come to them in judgment by the hands of the Romans.
The confusion vanishes when you understand that Jesus' "coming in the clouds" is not an event, but it is the revelation of what had already occurred, which is expressed in colorful OT apocalyptic and prophetic language.

Jesus "coming in the clouds" was not a literal event, he did not literally come in the clouds.

You said:
"So now you get to choose, which event caused the destruction of the temple, the great tribulation or the coming of the Son of Man, "in judgement".

I said:
"Jesus' coming in the clouds was not an event"
"Again, the great tribulation culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem"
"The destruction of the temple was the sign that Jesus had come to them in judgment by the hands of the Romans.
"The confusion vanishes when you understand that Jesus' "coming in the clouds" is not an event, but it is the revelation of what had already occurred, which is expressed in colorful OT apocalyptic and prophetic language"

As for you "literalness" of Luke.21:25 keep it.
I have no problem with natural "signs" occurring in the sun moon and stars.
I also have no problem with sun moon and stars being symbolical language in Matthew and the same being the literal cosmos in Luke.
As I said before, each account of this discourse does not contradict eachother, but rather compliments eachother and adds to the overall understanding. There have always been "signs" in the cosmos and the waves have always "roared".
Your argument has not proven anything, nor proved mine wrong.

It is now your turn to address my post 305. The burden is upon you to prove my argument faulty. If you can, we continue, if you cannot than my doctrine is correct, and Jesus' words are validated.
If you do not address post 305 than it is obvious you do not want to deal with the truth, and I will be finished with this thread. However, my argument will still stand untouched, my doctrine true, and Jesus' "literal words" if Math.24:34 will have been validated.
Stop avoiding my argument please, you have been running for days, it is time to deal with this.

Thank you
Hope of glory

Sorry, Its too late for you to back pedal and start changing by insinuating "what you meant to say was"...

Do you believe that the destruction of the temple was Jesus Coming in Judgement, as described in Matthew 24:30. Yes or No. Answer: Yes his "coming in judgment" not his second coming.

Jesus coming as described in Matthew 24:30 is AFTER the great tribulation of those days.

There Jesus Coming as described in Matthew 24:30 did not bring about the destruction of the Temple.

As you said, it was the great tribulation of those days that brought about the destruction of the temple.

Hope of Glory said Post #316 -

Do you believe the great tribulation was the destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD? Yes or No." Answer: Yes.

Again, according to you, the temple was destroyed in the great tribulation.


According to Matthew 24:30 Jesus Coming ["in judgement"] happened after the temple was destroyed.

You can't have it both ways, You said that the context Matthew 24 is all about the temple and its destruction.


When do you say the temple was destroyed, in the great tribulation or after the great tribulation, during Jesus' Coming, as described in Matthew 24.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

man's theology?

What do you say about a prophecy being fulfilled more than once. In case, 70 AD and in the future again?
Is there any Biblical reasoning behind this?

none, why? the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross. also the signs that the first jewish/ gentile audience had to look for would be something that they knew to look for otherwise its gibberish to them. why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice?

Thank you, for responding Jason. Some people agree that it did happen in 70 AD but will repeat in the future. Double prophecy.

why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice? or any of the prophets for that matter. got it

the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross.
No it can't be holy but would the unbelieving Jews see it that way. Go ahead and build the temple (they are saying there is room to do that if they don't build the outer court) and have it destroyed again. I know I must be missing something spiritual here in the understanding of the temple or something? Can you help. Because if they don't believe in Messiah they will think it is holy before God?
If they do this will God let it go I wonder?

 

[reba]

Does it matter what a nonbeliever believes to be holy....

 

[Deborah13]

Does it matter what a nonbeliever believes to be holy....

OK so between the two of you I think I get it.

If it's not holy (which it wouldn't be) then the abomination of desolation would not apply. So therefore, there would be no abomination, therefore the prophecy would not apply to any new temple. ??

 

[Zeuszoos]

I would like to talk about the day of the Lord but firstbi think it's important to establish some facts about Math.24. Please answer the following questions with a yes or no answer. Add one sentence if you feel it's necessary to qualify your answer.

According to Math.24:1-3 is the context of this chapter about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad? Yes or no
Since in the Greek the word for "world" actually means "age", is it logical to assume that the "end of the age" refers to the end of the "Mosiac age" which was still in operation and not to the "church age" which had not even come into existence yet? Yes or no
In verse 15 when Jesus says to his disciples "you shall see the abomination of desolation...", is it not grammatically and contextually correct to suppose that Jesus meant the people whom he was talking to would see this? Yes or no
Since Jesus said "that generation" (you shall see) would see the abomination of desolation, is it correct to assume that they in fact saw it? Yes or no
In verse 29 is Jesus quoting/referencing OT scriptures such as Isa.13:10 Ezekiel 32:8 Joel.2:31 Amos 8:9, and are these OT scriptures speaking of the "day of the Lord"? Yes or no
In verse 30 when Jesus says "...the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven", us he making reference to Dan.7:13..."the Son of man cane with the clouds of heaven..."? Yes or no
In verse 34 when Jesus said "this generation" he was literally looking at and speaking to his contemporary "generation"? Yes or no
Since Jesus was speaking to his own contemporary generation when he said "this generation", it is therefore grammatically and contextually correct to assume that the generation he was referring to was the generation he was speaking to (his 1st century generation)? Yes or no

Yes to all. And it includes the rest of Matt 24. Actually Matt 23-25.


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Sent using TapaTalk2 on my way cool
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[reba]

That is how i see it Deb.

Deb, i dont have a " I know it all " attitude or the head knowledge about this stuff.... My journey started years ago with questions, like the one we are discussing here...
Personally i dont believe ones thoughts about eschatology are unto salvation... I do put out an effort to have my thoughts line up with the words of Christ... Balanced with the whole of Scripture...

 

[JLB]

inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross.

The abomination of desolation has not happened yet.

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed. Daniel 9:26

Here in verse 26 we see the destruction of the city and the temple.


27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:27

It is not until the 70th week that we see the abomination of desolation.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Zeuszoos
(reply to post 329)

Thanks for the reply brother.
And yes, chap.23-25 is right, but that was not the scope of our discussion.
Blessings my friend.

 

[JLB]

Endtimesduet32/70AD (response to post 320)

Thanks for the encouragement my friend. Sometimes I feel like Elijah brother, "I'm the only one left", LOL. May the "gospel of the kingdom" be forever preached, we are his "kingdom come", AMEN!

I'm sure you have seen it already, but I have formed an argument in my post 305 that the "futurists" are avoiding. It is an airtight argument which proves that when Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" ge was not referring to his "second coming". It also validates our Masters words in Math.24:34....."this generation will not pass till all these things be fulfilled". May He reward you richly for your love of the truth!

A couple of thoughts:

Concerning Luke 21:25
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring"

Isa.5:25-30

"Therefore the anger of the Lord is kindled against his people....and he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far....and in that day they shall roar against them like the ROARING OF THE SEA, and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof"

Concerning Luke 21:24

"....and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the GENTILES (same word as Heathen), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

Ezek.30:3 "For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day, it shall be the time of the HEATHEN (same word as
Gentiles)

(Of course we know that the "day of the Lord" was fulfilled in 70ad....
Math.24:35....42-43....1thes.5:2.....2Pet.3:10
But also speaks of the "the Lords day", the realm of Spirit in which we live....Rev.1:10....1Thes.5:5....John 12:36....Eph.5:8.....

Fellowship is great "in light"!!!!

Jesus said -

If the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness.

JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Eugene (reply to post 321)

Why have you not replied to my post 305??????????

 

[JLB]

Jesus clarified what He meant by His reference to Daniel.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

The simple truth for all to see. The Abomination of Desolation, as spoken of by Daniel, occurs well after the destruction of the city and sanctuary.


Daniel 9:26-27 -


26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

• ... destroy the city and the sanctuary. - This event occurs in 70 AD.
  

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."


... the abomination of desolation - This event occurs 3 1/2 years after the 70 th weeks starts.


The Abomination of Desolation event clearly occurs after the events of 70 AD.

Jesus listed the Abomination of Desolation as one of His signs BEFORE, and leading up to the Coming of the Son of Man and the end of the age.

Another one of many clear scriptures that refutes Preterism!


JLB

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Remember, you are the one that said The destruction of the temple was Jesus coming, "in Judgement" as described in Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

JLB

Another point is that the word 'earth' to a first century jewish context and hearer was the 'earth' or land domain of Judea. That was the 'earth' to which they hoped to remain in.

Read Isaiah 24 and 25 noting the times the 'earth' is mentioned in reference to judgment to come on the people and ways of that covenant and at the time [lifespan] of the coming of Messiah.

Excerpt from Isaiah 24.

See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;

The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the heavens languish with the earth.
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

 

[JLB]

Remember, you are the one that said The destruction of the temple was Jesus coming, "in Judgement" as described in Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

JLB

Another point is that the word 'earth' to a first century jewish context and hearer was the 'earth' or land domain of Judea. That was the 'earth' to which they hoped to remain in.

Read Isaiah 24 and 25 noting the times the 'earth' is mentioned in reference to judgment to come on the people and ways of that covenant and at the time [lifespan] of the coming of Messiah.

Excerpt from Isaiah 24.

See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;

The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the heavens languish with the earth.
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

Where in Isaiah 24 does it say that the earth is the land of Judea?

This is a Prophecy of the Day of the Lord and His vengeance upon the evil doers of the earth.

21 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones, And on the earth the kings of the earth. 22 They will be gathered together, As prisoners are gathered in the pit,And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be disgraced And the sun ashamed; For the Lord of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.

For the Lord of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.

More twisting of God's word to try and a Preterism Point.


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

man's theology?

What do you say about a prophecy being fulfilled more than once. In case, 70 AD and in the future again?
Is there any Biblical reasoning behind this?

none, why? the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross. also the signs that the first jewish/ gentile audience had to look for would be something that they knew to look for otherwise its gibberish to them. why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice?

Thank you, for responding Jason. Some people agree that it did happen in 70 AD but will repeat in the future. Double prophecy.

why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice? or any of the prophets for that matter. got it

the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross.
No it can't be holy but would the unbelieving Jews see it that way. Go ahead and build the temple (they are saying there is room to do that if they don't build the outer court) and have it destroyed again. I know I must be missing something spiritual here in the understanding of the temple or something? Can you help. Because if they don't believe in Messiah they will think it is holy before God?
If they do this will God let it go I wonder?

I am a jew, my brother, a great uncle, and a few others that I know, all are jews and none of the testimonies that I have heard, have said it had to do with the third temple, but the cross and the sin that they had. my aunt a devout jewess know attends a Baptist church. God used my brothers wedding to get here to listen to the Lord.how many jews are saved , have been saved, and will be? countless and that fulfills what paul spoke of in romans 10.

 

[jasoncran]

Does it matter what a nonbeliever believes to be holy....

OK so between the two of you I think I get it.

If it's not holy (which it wouldn't be) then the abomination of desolation would not apply. So therefore, there would be no abomination, therefore the prophecy would not apply to any new temple. ??

most correct., the jews then had a teaching on the aod and called the roman army the desolation of desolations. if one where to look to the history of ad 70 you will find the oblations did cease. a covenant to isreal was made and the prince died for that.

 

[reba]

For the Lord of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.