Eternal Life

[netchaplain]

The function of the “resurrection” is to join a spirit being with a new indestructible physical body, similar (maybe exactly) to man’s body prior to sinning. It’s also true that believers and unbelievers will both receive a resurrected body (John 5:28, 29), but not both will have “eternal life” (John 10:27, 28) in their new bodies, which is the intention of “the second death.” If eternal life means an eternal relationship with God, then the absence of an eternal relationship with God means eternal death.

So, I believe a question that may be adequate in addressing eternal life is, “when does a believer receive eternal life”? My understanding is that it is possessed at the time of rebirth, and if so, the phrase “loose eternal life” is not only an oxymoron (you can’t lose eternal life since it means life that is forever) but Scripture has no usages of such language or concept.

May God guide all who reply to this post to His truths concerning it, and God Be Blessed!

 

[chessman]

I believe a question that may be adequate in addressing eternal life is, “when does a believer receive eternal life”?

Upon hearing the word of Jesus Christ and believing the one who sent Him.

John 5:24 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:47 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life. ​

At that moment in time, the believer in The Son, has Eternal Life. Amazing, really when you contemplate what that means. And furthermore He tells us what having Etetnal Life means, just in case it wasn't obvious already. It means the one who has Eternal Life now, will not come into judgment and has passed from death and will never perish. Someone who has passed from death ever experiencing death. What a silly idea. Someone who does not come into judgment, ever coming into judgment, how absurd.

But the unbeliever remains under the wrath of God.

John 3:36 (LEB) The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.
​

Equally as clear, by definition, an unbeliever is the one on whom the wrath of God remains (not returns).

John 10:28 (LEB) And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

And furthermore someone who has been given Eternal Life, were that one ever to perish or come again (return) under God's wrathful judgment, directly contradicts all that's said about Eternal Life in these verses.

John 4:14 (LEB) But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” ​

Having Eternal Life means NEVER thirsting for eternity. It is simply impossible for someone who has been given Eternal Life to ever thirst again, perish or come under God's wrathful judgment. Period. QED

 

[JLB]

My understanding is that it is possessed at the time of rebirth, and if so, the phrase “loose eternal life” is not only an oxymoron (you can’t lose eternal life since it means life that is forever) but Scripture has no usages of such language or concept.

Paul makes it clear that eternal life is given at the end, not the beginning.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

and again

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Hmm, wonderful discussion my friend Chaplain of the net. Yours is a very interesting subject as to when eternal life kicks in. I'm of the mind that as soon as we become Born Again, we inherit eternal life....John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I also like....Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Spiritually, we're already there, sitting with Jesus. That might be a stretch for some folk, but I picture myself risen with Christ.

 

[chessman]

Paul makes it clear that eternal life is given at the end, not the beginning.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

Clearly Paul says:

NOW you have; 1) your fruit to holiness and 2) the end, everlasting life.

Which is consistent with Jesus' teaching too.

 

[netchaplain]

Upon hearing the word of Jesus Christ and believing the one who sent Him.

John 5:24 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:47 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life. ​

At that moment in time, the believer in The Son, has Eternal Life.

Thanks CM and good reply! My point is, as I'm sure you agree that eternal life cannot be lost once it is given, as
also shown below:

I believe the Spirit of God indwells you at rebirth and He "abides with you forever" (John 14:16), which answers to the permanency of being "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph 1:13, 14).

The "redemption" here is in reference to our body, for we have received redemption in our soul and spirit, but not our body. God "has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee" (2Cor 1:22) of our salvation.

 

[netchaplain]

Paul makes it clear that eternal life is given at the end, not the beginning.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

"And the end" means "resulting in." Besides, the final state of a believer concerning guilt of the sin nature is the same as the beginning at rebirth, "guiltless."

"But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life" (NLT).

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life" (NIV).

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life" (ESV).

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

The word "render" is not used in a chronological sense but as a means of payment. The passage does not indicate when the "rendering" will occur. This is the same as a verdict being concluded but sentencing has yet to pass. Same for the promises of God to the believer, He has guaranteed them but one has yet to transpire--the resurrection.

 

[chessman]

I believe the Spirit of God indwells you at rebirth and He "abides with you forever" (John 14:16)

Of course.

John 14:17b (LEB) ...You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. ​

The "redemption" here is in reference to our body, for we have received redemption in our soul and spirit, but not our body.

Yep. In the fullness of time, though, even our bodies will be brought together with our souls in Heaven.

Ephesians 1:10 (LEB) for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him ​

 

[ezrider]

"And the end" means "resulting in." Besides, the final state of a believer concerning guilt of the sin nature is the same as the beginning at rebirth, "guiltless."

Can you please expound on this statement. When are we guiltless? Do people believe when they confess their sins and ask to have them washed in the blood of the lamb, that they are then accounted as innocent?

 

[netchaplain]

Can you please expound on this statement. When are we guiltless? Do people believe when they confess their sins and ask to have them washed in the blood of the lamb, that they are then accounted as innocent?

Yes, which is at rebirth.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[ezrider]

Yes, which is at rebirth.

Thanks for your reply!

So is that why people argue over OSAS and other such thing all the time? Because if they find themselves themselves in sin again they are no longer innocent, and must repent again to become innocent again?

 

[netchaplain]

So is that why people argue over OSAS and other such thing all the time? Because if they find themselves themselves in sin again they are no longer innocent, and must repent again to become innocent again?

You will probably need to clarify "in sin again" so I know for certain what you're attempting to share.

 

[ezrider]

You will probably need to clarify "in sin again" so I know for certain what you're attempting to share.

I would say any sin that is common to man: Angry with his neighbor, maybe drinks too much, smokes a little weed, perhaps continues in lust by watching porn. Maybe it is someone who snaps and kill someone, the sin doesn't matter. There are people who have been Christians for decades who would still actively seek out sin to repent of, or have a fear of some unrepentant sin that is effecting their relationship with God.

But more importantly, it is the idea of being made "innocent" that concerns me. Where does the idea of being made innocent come from?

 

[netchaplain]

I would say any sin that is common to man: Angry with his neighbor, maybe drinks too much, smokes a little weed, perhaps continues in lust by watching porn. Maybe it is someone who snaps and kill someone, the sin doesn't matter. There are people who have been Christians for decades who would still actively seek out sin to repent of, or have a fear of some unrepentant sin that is effecting their relationship with God.

I think it may help if we can conceive that when sinners repent and confess of their sin for the first time it intends all sin in their lives (is my understanding), which will manifest as the sins are discontinued, i.e. those who never cease from sins related to physical habits cannot show they are saved, and the discretion here is to each, for only the Lord knows for sure, and eventually so will the one sinning these type of sins.

fear of some unrepentant sin that is effecting their relationship with God.

I believe this will always be the situation for those who do not understand the permanency of salvation, and understandably so if they're depending on works as the source of salvation.

But more importantly, it is the idea of being made "innocent" that concerns me. Where does the idea of being made innocent come from?

Interesting question! Innocent of the guilt from the "condemnation" of sin (Rom 8:1). Which means innocent of the sin nature which caused God to send His Son.

Blessings!

 

[JLB]

Clearly Paul says:

NOW you have; 1) your fruit to holiness and 2) the end, everlasting life.

Which is consistent with Jesus' teaching too.

Yes, those who choose to become a slave to God and His righteousness, will bear fruit unto holiness.... Now.

The way a believer bears fruit unto holiness, now, is to become a slave of righteousness, now.

...so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

You have to read the context, with the warning and the choices Paul gives to each believer.

I will emphasize the choices in bold and blue.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23

• Those Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death.
• Those Christians who choose to present their members as slaves of God, and His righteousness will in the end receive eternal life.

Exactly what Paul started this letter to the Romans with:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The function of the “resurrection” is to join a spirit being with a new indestructible physical body, similar (maybe exactly) to man’s body prior to sinning. It’s also true that believers and unbelievers will both receive a resurrected body (John 5:28, 29), but not both will have “eternal life” (John 10:27, 28) in their new bodies, which is the intention of “the second death.” If eternal life means an eternal relationship with God, then the absence of an eternal relationship with God means eternal death.

So, I believe a question that may be adequate in addressing eternal life is, “when does a believer receive eternal life”? My understanding is that it is possessed at the time of rebirth, and if so, the phrase “loose eternal life” is not only an oxymoron (you can’t lose eternal life since it means life that is forever) but Scripture has no usages of such language or concept.

May God guide all who reply to this post to His truths concerning it, and God Be Blessed!

That's a pretty well thought out post.
I would say, however, that we do enter into eternal life at the time we believe but it does not become a permanent condition until the resurrection. John 3:16 says that whoever believes "has" (currently possesses) eternal life but it does not say that his condition is permanent. There are multiple statements in scripture which admonish believers to persevere and stay the course so that they do not loose the gift they have been given.
It is not until we are arisen that we shall be like Him.

iakov the fool

 

[gr8grace3]

That's a pretty well thought out post.
I would say, however, that we do enter into eternal life at the time we believe but it does not become a permanent condition until the resurrection. John 3:16 says that whoever believes "has" (currently possesses) eternal life but it does not say that his condition is permanent. There are multiple statements in scripture which admonish believers to persevere and stay the course so that they do not loose the gift they have been given.
It is not until we are arisen that we shall be like Him.

iakov the fool

Eph 2:8, 2:5 shows dogmatically that it is permanent. Saved forever. Don't miss that these 2 verses are talking about someone who is saved, and describes the person's position .John 3:16 does not.

John 3:16 is describing the PLAN and PURPOSE of God in salvation. It is not describing a individual who has been saved.

John 3:16 introduces a purpose clause, it why we see "present tenses" and "subjunctive moods."

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:5~~New American Standard Bible
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
~~You have been saved~~The periphrastic perfect in the Greek. Paul uses multiple verbs to make his point, because he can't get all the information in with one verb......... Saved at the moment we believe,saved right now and saved forever.

 

[Jim Parker]

Eph 2:8, 2:5 shows dogmatically that it is permanent. Saved forever.

IT says absolutely NOTHING about being saved forever.
It's not talking about salvation's permanence or impermanence. It's talking about the means of our salvation.
You are adding something that is NOT in the scriptures you quote.

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
~~You have been saved~~The periphrastic perfect in the Greek. Paul uses multiple verbs to make his point, because he can't get all the information in with one verb......... Saved at the moment we believe,saved right now and saved forever.

The Koine Greek which Paul used was the Greek of the marketplace or, as my Greek professor put it, "It's 'I seen 'im when he done it' Greek." You are attempting to make the grammar of the market make Paul contradict himself in his clear statements which refute your OSAS misunderstanding of scripture.

RO 11:17-22 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

COL 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Salvation is not permanent until the believer is raised from the dead and has entered into the inheritance prepared for him by GOd the Father. Until you die, you have the possibility and ability to discard or loose your salvation.

 

[gr8grace3]

IT says absolutely NOTHING about being saved forever.
It's not talking about salvation's permanence or impermanence.

It clearly is. If we go past the one year mark of learning Greek or don't have a bias, it is easy to see. Can you tell us what a periphrastic perfect is? "have been saved" is a periphrastic perfect. Look it up.

It's talking about the means of our salvation.

No. Eph 2:8 and 2:5 is Paul describing a believer. Not the means to their salvation. He would have quoted John 3:16 if he was describing the way for these people to be saved.

You are adding something that is NOT in the scriptures you quote.

So are you saying that the periphrastic perfect is not in Eph 2:8 and 2:5?

RO 11:17-22 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

COL 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Romans 11 is describing the nation of Israel. They were Gods client nation to advance the gospel. They failed and were cut off. Not from salvation but from client nation status. Rome became Gods client nation to advance Gods Gospel...they were cut off. The USA is Gods client nation at this time.........IMO we are close to being cut off. But not from salvation,from being His "go to" people to advance the gospel.

Col 1:21-23~~Some believers will not be presented holy and blameless. They will have their works burned, rewards lost and be refined as "if through fire". Loss of salvation believers will go through this evaluation............they are not established and firm in Christ, they have moved from the hope of the security in Christ in His gospel of Grace.

Salvation is not permanent until the believer is raised from the dead and has entered into the inheritance prepared for him by GOd the Father. Until you die, you have the possibility and ability to discard or loose your salvation.

Salvation is permanent the moment we believe. The periphrastic perfect of of Eph 2:8,5 " you have been saved" dogmatically shows us this.

 

[chessman]

Salvation is not permanent until the believer is raised from the dead and has entered into the inheritance prepared for him by GOd the Father.

Can you point out a Scripture that teaches that salvation is not permanent until after our bodies are raised from the dead?

How about Mat 25:46, is this permanent salvation on your view?

Matthew 25:46 (LEB) And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” ​