Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

Those whose faith in Christ is weak as they never allow it to mature or build upon it will be more inclined to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, 32, from their heart and completely turn away from Him denouncing God in their lives when not trusting God in all things when they face the trials and tribulations of this world and actually blame God for their torments.

I think it's time to put this one to bed. Jesus was clear about what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was. It was attributing the miracles of Jesus to Beelzebub. One had to see Jesus' miracles and then conclude that they came from the devil. That, alone, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Once saved always saved are only those who are in Christ and endure all persecutions, trials and tribulation as they stand strong in their faith that is Christ Jesus until their physical death unto the end of days here on Earth as then they are saved from the lake of fire as their names are found written in the Lambs book of life which is eternal life with the Father.

Sure sounds like a works based salvation to me. Not much different than what the Pharisees believed and taught.

OSAS means eternal security for all who have believed. Jesus said that those who believe in Him WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 3:16 and in John 10:28.

[No personal assessments. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, but you have not addressed the scriptures in which I posted from Romans 6

You're kidding, right? This isn't how this thread works. The OP is very clear. I've given 6 points that prove eternal security, something you don't accept.

So, since all Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, then all of the verses in the first 5 points fit into one of these 4 categories.

So, if you want to refute the OP, you have to address each point and prove which category is in view, and show how it doesn't teach eternal security.

If you believe that any of the verses in the first 5 points ARE about teaching, then you must prove that they teach something other than eternal security.

So, I'm waiting for your response.

I've given clear verses that I am convinced teach eternal security. So, if they don't teach that, what do they teach?

That's the ONLY way you're going to be able to refute my position. I've made my position very clear.

Just reposting any other set of verses won't cut it. You have to prove the verses I presented don't teach what I'm convinced they do teach.

If you can.

 

[JLB]

I recognize, however, that within the book of Revelation Jesus speaks to Christians about non-Christians

Within the book of Revelation, Jesus warns Christians what they will receive if they overcome, and what they receive if the they become liars or sexually immoral...


And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

These words are spoken as an encouragement and admonition to Christians, about Christians.


Within the book of Revelation, Jesus warns Christians about taking the mark of the beast and being tormented day and night forever and ever.


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12



JLB

 

[WIP]

Reminder:
ToS 2.6: A member may not impose additional rules upon threads by claiming on/off topic or by other means. Moderators will enforce only the rules as included in the ToS and are not obligated to enforce regulations promoted by a member.

This includes declaring what is or is not an acceptable post.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"And I've shown the meaning of the Greek word, which means to "possess"."

Freegrace, it doesn't matter what you or I want to say 'hold fast' means, the point you aren't addressing is it's a condition to be saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

But you say there is no condition whatsoever for the believer to be saved at the resurrection.

 

[JLB]

I recognize, however, that within the book of Revelation Jesus speaks to Christians about non-Christians

Within the book of Revelation, Jesus warns Christians what they will receive if they overcome, and what they receive if the they become liars or sexually immoral...


And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

These words are spoken as an encouragement and admonition to Christians, about Christians.


Within the book of Revelation, Jesus warns Christians about taking the mark of the beast and being tormented day and night forever and ever.


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Petty points of scripture can be debated 'til the cows come home but that is a result of improper reading the scriptures that in this case, as is usual, has resulted from a practice of faulty Hermeneutics. At some point every word of every scripture must be reconciled to every other word found in the scripture.

And in the end John 10:28 must enter into the mix. And that brings to the forefront a question that must be answered individually, "Who is saved?" And right there lies the whole issue.

Agree with you 1000%

 

[FreeGrace]

Within the book of Revelation, Jesus warns Christians what they will receive if they overcome, and what they receive if the they become liars or sexually immoral...


And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

These words are spoken as an encouragement and admonition to Christians, about Christians.


Within the book of Revelation, Jesus warns Christians about taking the mark of the beast and being tormented day and night forever and ever.

Scripture tells us that salvation (Eph 2:8), eternal life (Rom 6:23) and justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) are gifts of God. And Scripture tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). These facts prove that your "interpretation" of Scripture is incorrect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agree with you 1000%

I'm curious, do you also think there are zero conditions for the believer to be saved?

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

As we see here in this not so petty, but sobering, reference, it is indeed incumbent on the believer to 'hold fast the word' that was preached to them in order to be saved. Do you disagree? I would suggest to you that it is this very thing that makes passages like John 10:28, John 5:24, etc. true for the believer. Faith is the security of salvation. Faith is what makes your salvation secure. But some have foolishly concluded that to make a continuing faith in the gospel message a requirement for the believer to be saved on the Day of Wrath is to make the gospel a works gospel. How ridiculous. Since when has faith ever been on the works side of the faith vs. works argument for justification set forth by Paul?

 

[FreeGrace]

Freegrace, it doesn't matter what you or I want to say 'hold fast' means, the point you aren't addressing is it's a condition to be saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

But you say there is no condition whatsoever for the believer to be saved at the resurrection.

I HAVE addressed it. It means to possess. And when one believes the gospel, they DO HAVE or possess eternal life (Jn 5:24). And eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable (Rom 6:23, 11:29).

You've taken the English words as something that is ongoing, as though if one "let's go" they lose salvation. But that is NOT what the word means at all.

And I've provided clear evidence that one is saved from a point in time (aorist tense) action of believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I HAVE addressed it. It means to possess. And when one believes the gospel, they DO HAVE or possess eternal life (Jn 5:24). And eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable (Rom 6:23, 11:29).

You've taken the English words as something that is ongoing, as though if one "let's go" they lose salvation. But that is NOT what the word means at all.

And I've provided clear evidence that one is saved from a point in time (aorist tense) action of believing.

You're still not explaining why Paul says it is IF you hold fast the word that you are saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

It's a condition for the believer to be saved, but you insist there are zero conditions, or obligations attached to salvation. Explain why Paul says there is indeed the requirement to hold fast (possess, whatever) the gospel message that was preached to you to be saved, but you say one does not have to do that, or anything else to be saved.

 

[JLB]

Scripture tells us that salvation (Eph 2:8), eternal life (Rom 6:23) and justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) are gifts of God. And Scripture tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). These facts prove that your "interpretation" of Scripture is incorrect.

By stating your opinion, then "tagging" it with three of four different scripture "references", without quoting the actual scripture and the context, I suppose one could get the bible to say just about anything.

I guess that's why you can't address my post that has the scripture and it's surrounding context, written out for all to see.


Here is just one of many contrast's in the bible about two different sets of Christians.

The warning is clear.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8

and again


16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


Christians who walk in the Spirit, following the leading of the Spirit within, and produce the fruit of righteousness.
Christians who walk after the flesh, practicing the sinful desires of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

I'm curious, do you also think there are zero conditions for the believer to be saved?

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

As we see here in this not so petty, but sobering, reference, it is indeed incumbent on the believer to 'hold fast the word' that was preached to them in order to be saved. Do you disagree? I would suggest to you that it is this very thing that makes passages like John 10:28, John 5:24, etc. true for the believer. Faith is the security of salvation. Faith is what makes your salvation secure. But some have foolishly concluded that to make a continuing faith in the gospel message a requirement for the believer to be saved on the Day of Wrath is to make the gospel a works gospel. How ridiculous. Since when has faith ever been on the works side of the faith vs. works argument for justification set forth by Paul?

Did you mean to send this to me? I was just agreeing with Bill about "Who is saved" is the issue. Lots of people think they are saved and go about their business the same as they always have.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think it's time to put this one to bed. Jesus was clear about what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was. It was attributing the miracles of Jesus to Beelzebub. One had to see Jesus' miracles and then conclude that they came from the devil. That, alone, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.


Sure sounds like a works based salvation to me. Not much different than what the Pharisees believed and taught.

OSAS means eternal security for all who have believed. Jesus said that those who believe in Him WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 3:16 and in John 10:28.

[No personal assessments. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

Then we have no more to discuss especially when it comes to what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is that is clearly explained in these scriptures below that I leave you to ponder on. God bless you and you have a great day

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[JLB]

OSAS means eternal security for all who have believed. Jesus said that those who believe in Him WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 3:16 and in John 10:28.

Unfortunately this promise is to those who believe, not to those who believe then turn away and no longer believe.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are longer believers.

Believers who no longer believer, are no longer believers.

The promise is to those who believe... will never perish.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm curious, do you also think there are zero conditions for the believer to be saved?

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

As we see here in this not so petty, but sobering, reference, it is indeed incumbent on the believer to 'hold fast the word' that was preached to them in order to be saved. Do you disagree? I would suggest to you that it is this very thing that makes passages like John 10:28, John 5:24, etc. true for the believer. Faith is the security of salvation. Faith is what makes your salvation secure. But some have foolishly concluded that to make a continuing faith in the gospel message a requirement for the believer to be saved on the Day of Wrath is to make the gospel a works gospel. How ridiculous. Since when has faith ever been on the works side of the faith vs. works argument for justification set forth by Paul?

So many Sunday Morning Christians miss that point.

 

[FreeGrace]

You're still not explaining why Paul says it is IF you hold fast the word that you are saved:

Well, I guess that you're still not understanding what I have posted, then. Sorry about that.

It's a condition for the believer to be saved, but you insist there are zero conditions, or obligations attached to salvation.

I have always said there is ONE condition to be saved; to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as Paul answered the jailer's question about what he MUST DO to be saved.

And guess what!!? Paul used the aorist tense, which refutes your misunderstanding of 1 Cor 15:2.

Please explain why the aorist tense means so little to you, or how it doesn't refute your view of continuing to believe.

Explain why Paul says there is indeed the requirement to hold fast (possess, whatever) the gospel message that was preached to you to be saved, but you say one does not have to do that, or anything else to be saved.

Been there, done that. Post #50. Sorry I can't make myself any more clear than I have.

So at least you can quit asking me to explain, since I have. I cannot help what you cannot understand.

 

[FreeGrace]

By stating your opinion, then "tagging" it with three of four different scripture "references", without quoting the actual scripture and the context, I suppose one could get the bible to say just about anything.

Why don't you do what I do, if that's what you think. Go ahead and quote the verse yourself, as I do, and then SHOW how the verse doesn't support the poster's claim, as I do. ;)

Here is just one of many contrast's in the bible about two different sets of Christians.
The warning is clear.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8

and again
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

Christians who walk in the Spirit, following the leading of the Spirit within, and produce the fruit of righteousness.
Christians who walk after the flesh, practicing the sinful desires of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
JLB

I cannot understand why anyone would think the Bible contradicts itself. Because the OP proves eternal security, and as of yet, no one has taken the 6 points and refuted any of them.

All one needs to do is take the verses in each point, and explain what they DO teach, if not eternal security.

Or if they are not teaching something, then what category from 2 Tim 3:16 do they fall under? Reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness?

And if any of the verse do fall under any of those categories, then please show HOW they fit that category.

My point is that they all are profitable for teaching (doctrine). And the doctrine is eternal security.

So, if I'm wrong, it shouldn't be difficult to show what they DO teach instead of what I believe they do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Then we have no more to discuss especially when it comes to what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is that is clearly explained in these scriptures below that I leave you to ponder on. God bless you and you have a great day

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I guess you are disagreeing with me. But just check the context for Matt 12, beginning with v.22. You'll see that my comments were correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OSAS means eternal security for all who have believed. Jesus said that those who believe in Him WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 3:16 and in John 10:28."

Unfortunately this promise is to those who believe, not to those who believe then turn away and no longer believe.

Unfortunately, you've again posted an opinion without ANY evidence from Scripture. Yet you accuse me of doing that.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are longer believers.
Believers who no longer believer, are no longer believers.
The promise is to those who believe... will never perish.
JLB

Please prove from Scripture your thesis; that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. You keep repeating your opinion, but you've provided absolutely zero support for your opinion.

otoh, I have proven from Scripture that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes, per the very words of Jesus: John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Now, consider these very words from Jesus in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, wht do we learn from Jesus' words? That those who believe HAVE eternal life. And those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't be more clear than what He said.

btw, I addressed the aorist tense that Jesus used in John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters (aorist) by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

It seems that you don't understand how the aorist tense is used and what it means for your theory about loss of salvation. It refutes it directly. Like a torpedo to a boat.

Or, when Jesus used the aorist tense in John 4:14 - but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty forever. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

The use of the aorist tense is to show a single occurrence of an action, as distinct from continuous action.

Therefore, when Jesus said that whoever enters (aorist) by Him WILL BE SAVED. It does NOT require continuous action to be or stay saved.

As well, when Jesus said that whoever drinks (aorist) from the water that He give WILL NEVER THIRST.

So, WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life, as proven above. And Jesus promises that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Which is why Paul could write that the gifts of God, which he himself described as eternal life, are irrevocable.

So Paul and Jesus were saying the SAME THING and teaching eternal security.