[_ Old Earth _] Evidence to help me disprove evolution, please?

[cd27]

hey people, i am trying my darndest to disprove evolution, but these evolutionists are slick! i'm gonna need factual evidence. this time, for this, we can not rely on faith to free us from this problem. god will forever be beside us, but i we're gonna win the fight against evolution we can't go around saying things like, "oh i think this goes like this...or......it says int he bible...." the bible is absolutely correct, but athiests won't believe that, will they? no, then what's the point in quoteing a scripture? there is none, it will jsut make us look stupider. if we're gonna win this, which i do plan to do, we will have to rely on factual evidence, stuff we can show them, real evidence. like, exactly what their doing to us. they say that the can prove that the universe began billions of light years because we can see the light of stars billions of years old....so how do you answer that one? huh? Dr. Hovind answered it by saying that we can not accurately measure more than 100 light years away. wow, great evidence, unfortunately, its' not quite good enough.

he's got to prove what he says, not give a link to what someone else said a long time ago. i mean, shoot, a long time ago people said the earth was round, and had perfect proof for it, would you give a link to prove something you said with that kind of information on it? yea, i didn't think so. so guys, helps each other out here, try giving some real evidence, no faith stuff this time, though faith does help us alot wih our relationship with christ, it won't help us at all when trying to convince a well educated evolutionist and debater that evolutin isn't real. we have to be seriouse about this stuff folks! we can't let them run us over like that. they have alot of years in education and studying on how to get ready for us in the future, and it's working so far, we already have prayter out of schools, and now they're sueing people for saying the word "god" in class. try this, say "jesus" instead of "god", it ticks their little purple button more when you do that. i learned that little trick from my pastor, very good man. help me out guys, any good factual evidence that evolution isn't real would be helpful. please provide me with some. i want to show them for once and for all that they are wrong. they teach this stuff as fact in our schools, you know that? and we let them! and if they want to argue that it's real, well, society believs them, ut i can shove something else down their face too. the atomic structure theory is jsut that, a THOERY, and they teach it as fact. not one single shred of evidence can prove that an atom is even real. for all we know, it could be fake, we simply all blindl accept it. and if we can't disprove evolution with actualy and factual facts, and prove creationism with the sme, we're doomed. so, help out wil ya?

 

[Andre3000]

the atomic structure theory is jsut that, a THOERY, and they teach it as fact.

Actually the atomic structure theorIES are not theories to prove the existance of atoms. They are theories that demonstrate how electrons fill shells, pair with each other, what shapes and sizes nuclear and electron clouds form, etc. I've actually found more evidence in studying the atomic theories that there is hardly any order or design in the universe. The manner in which electrons fill shells (or do not fill shells depending on how you look at it) is simply amazing. In lower chemistry classes they teach that there are specific rules to how a shell is filled. And for such a lower chemistry class, these assumptions work just fine. But when you get into higher levels of chemistry you are taught that the way you were told electrons fill shells was actually vastly inaccurate. Same thing happens with shapes and sizes. No one atom has the exact same trends in regards to electrons, shapes, and sizes as another. There simply is no design to an atom.

 

[cd27]

there is a design to everything. look at the humna race, for example. not every human is the same, in fact, none are, not even twins, they have different personallities. this works just like an atom does, no one atome will be the same as the other. you have to remember that this is a finite universe, god is infinite. finite things break down,a nd are imperfect, god does not break down, so he is perfect. actually, to correct myself, let me state what the differences are between three words.

finite-a beginning, and end
infinite-a beginning, no end
eternal-no beginning, no end

god is eternal, we are infinite, and the universe itself is finite. the universe can break down, and be destroyed. people tell me that i'm stupid for saying this, but how can you possibly say that the creation of the universe does not take a god to do? go back and read my Inol theory, read the section of the absolute theory. even if it wasn't absolute, it would have exploded prematuarly, and the universe, would be disasterous. nothing would have formed correctly. things would e shifting through space-time as if the were on a ping pong table, thigs would be accelerating when not supposed to, but only one or two things, not the entire thing of course, then that would leave that i was meant to be that way. and if it wa meant to be that way, then who did it? first off, a law in thermodynamics states that the creation and destruction of matter can not be done......hahahaha! funny, real funny. so howed it get ehre then? "oh we don't know yet, but we'll foind out"..he's a hint, god. nothing can be created without a creator, and god is the only creator who has any power to be able to create a whole universe.

then some peope ask me, "well, if god created everything, who created god" simple, but not simple answer to that question. most people tell me i'm a fruitloop for saying this, but it mkes more senes than anything else i kow does. he created himself. a god, who can be with every single person, at every single moment, must have the ability to travel back and forth in what we call "time" at his own will. i assume that he should anyways, because he did create it, so what is gonna stop him from "abusing" his own laws? my law of creationistc creation explains how he can do this, and a god would ahve that kind of power. the law of thermodynamics works find, with humans and non eternal creatures, but witrh an eternal creature, as god, this law is no longer a law, but a manipulant of one law. god created himself. simple answer, jsut ahrd for many peopel to believe. seeing as though you don't have the power to do this, you all probably think it an impossibility to do such a thing..if that's so, then the universe shouldn't be ehre, you shouldn't be here, a fascinating faic, which not even einstein could correctly predict, time, would not even exist. it al revolvs around god. without one, this universe would nt have existed. can you find any other reason why something like matter would just "pop" up out of nowhere, i mean, tehre was no universe then. there was nothing, remember? and then it suddenly goes boom, without anything to boom from, how's there gonna be a boom? think on those for a good long while.

 

[ThinkerMan]

I would caution you that just because we don't know everything about the universe, it doesn't mean we don't know anything.

Yes, most evidence about the universe and evolution is not 100% complete. That is the exciting part of science. Some bits of evidence will always confuse scientists and biologists, which is why continuing education on these issues is so important. We still have a lot to learn.

I would liken what we currently know to being lost in the forest with 27 compasses. We know we need to go north to get out. 25 compasses point in one direction, two compasses point in other directions. I sure has heck would head in the direction of the 25, and worry about the 2 other ones later.

Creationists like to talk about the other two compasses. They aren't wrong in talking about some other "evidence", it's just that the vast majority of evidence, literally and figuratively, points in another direction.

 

[cd27]

it really doesn't point in another direction. people are finding out mroe and more, that creationism is right, mayb not all of it is right, but neither is evolution, they ar both jsut as corect. evolution has a bunch of yuears piled on it, that we creationists don't have.

 

[Andre3000]

there is a design to everything. look at the humna race, for example. not every human is the same, in fact, none are, not even twins, they have different personallities. this works just like an atom does, no one atome will be the same as the other.

That wasn't a very good comparison. You're right when you say that not every human is the same. We have different personalities, etc. (except some sets of twins who share both the same exact DNA and what seems to be a shared consciousness). However we are all physically the same except for the few genetic mutations that occur with human life. Atoms are quite different; NONE of them have the exact same physical structure as another. In fact, NONE of them follow an exact trend in physical structure. As an example, when you look at a periodic table, the size of an atom increases as you move down a column. However, that size does not increase at any specific rate. It is in fact dependent on the number and types of particles in the specific atom (which is truly random).

you have to remember that this is a finite universe,

I tend to disagree. While it is not proven either way to be finite or infinite, many studies show that the universe is increasing at an infinite rate, which is much more mathematically possible than it not increasing at an infinite rate considering the properties of exponential functions and the natural entropy of the universe. And since I was presented with these studies by a creationist professor, I tend to think that this is more the case with the universe.

he created himself

The only problem with this is that he would have had to have existed prior to creating himself. I understand what you're trying to say with him going back in time to create himself, but it's the same principle; he had to exist prior to creating himself. Therefore your theory truly does not work.

first off, a law in thermodynamics states that the creation and destruction of matter can not be done

Not only that, but these laws also state that energy cannot be created nor destroyed under any circumstances in the universe. This means that the amount of energy that exists in the univers today is the exact same amount of energy that existed in the universe 100,000,000,000,000 years ago. I also tend to agree with this both because it has been proven to be true (you can actually prove it to be true in any scientific type of experiment where any sort of data is involved) and because it is logical.

You've inspired a really good conversation cd27, I hope we can continue.

 

[cd27]

well, i tend to like this conversation as well. but one thing you have got to realize is, when talking about creation and destruction of anything, you're comaparing a mortal human being against an eternal supernatural being who created the universe. if you lok at it that way, you will realize that as humans, imortal and withut knowledge as a supernatural being, we can not create or destroy any mater or energy, no mater how many tests we have to prove it. a supernatural being could change that to his will.

you are right, to an extent, on the fact that god had to exist before he could time travel. but not me, or you, created this universe, and you have to realize, god can manipulate everything, he created it, he knows how to get around it. inluding himself. one thing in life that i plan to do with physics is prove one thing, it doesn't matter what you think the universe does, they are all corect. let me explain, ok? and please work with me here, this is kinda deep, for even me.

my way of describing dimensions is very different than the way most scientists describe it. but i tend to think mine would ork beter. does this mean that i'm saying they are wrong? that dimensions are absolutely NO parallel? no, i am not. dimensions can be unified and parallel at the same time. it's a matter of how YOU perceve the information. if you belive truly that an atom works a certain way, then it will, for you. but if you truly belive it works a different way, it will work that way too. as long as both ideas are allows, independently, then they both are correct. it depends on what you belive. constantly, your brain is shaping spacetime in this universe by what it belives. if you beleive that a wormhole will take you to a certain place, it most likely will, but if you belive or have any doubt at all, it is highly likely that it will go anywhere your subconcious mind tells it to.

do you see what i mean? the laws of the universe can be shaped to what we beleive. but the problem is oncentration. you have to concentrate on it. and with sin in your life, you mind wil always wonder at a cerain point, no matter how good of a concentrater you are. the only perfect being is god. have you noticed that most depictions of doing magic is closing the eyes, saying something, or moving your hands? that's a mind thing. it helps you to concentrate. in the bible it says that god "spoke" the world into existence. wouldn't it be logical that god only has to speak something, because of his lack of sin, and that he could have something become "real" in minutes, that used to not even be there. read my theo of illusionistic creation in the Inol theory. it probably explains it a bit more.

you are correct, this is a very nice conversation.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Eric:

I like a lot of your thinking, but you are thinking deductively instead of inductively, as a scientist should.

Scientists observe, make notes, then come to a conclusion based on those observations. You are going the other way around. You are beginning with the concept of God, then going backwards to find evidence and philosophies that are consistant.

True, if you begin with an omnipotent god, then it is rather easy to get just about everything else you need. No offense, but this is cheating scientifically.

Many of the attributes you ascribe to God could also be given to the context of the universe as a whole. Just as there is no "before" god, there is also no "before" the universe. Time is a property of space, not the other way around. It is as illogical to debate "before" the big bang as it is the debate "before god".

You premise, I take it , it that all observations are false, and that only God is true. Yet, you are attempting to "prove" god and "unprove" evolution. You can't have your cake and....well, you know where it goes.

As far as time travel, just for fun I suggest reading "Slaughterhouse Five" by Vonnegut if you haven't already. It has a lot of fun with the concept of being in "all times" at once.

 

[cd27]

*sigh* i'm beginning to think that i'm the only person who thinks like i do. no ofense, i no you're right, but it is not my plan to think like a "scientist" i don't want to. i want it to be unique. let me give you a hint here. before i corected my theory, it was called the theory of flexon energy, because the energy flexed, and you know the rest. but i don't think on an scale at all of how you think. nothing near close to it. it's hard to explain, but i know for a fact that i'm right. in fact, i don't think i even understand it fully. first of all, i'm not exactly brilliant at physics, in fact, i'm still in ninth grade physics, i'm 17 years old, don't ask how i got behind two grades, it's complicated. i basically kow nothing of physics, hardly anything. and i was worse off when i first started my theory. interesting isn't it? that someone not knowing anything on the topic, can write a theory, and my flexon theory. if you change jello to energy, you would realize that it is almost exactly like the two theories Zero-point energy, and the string theory. i jsut recently changed it from flexon energy to inol jello. whe i did that, i completely tok flexon energy out of the picture. with it in the picture, i said that flexon energy was space itself, and that all energies were connected to flexon energy. now isn't that funny, that a 16 year old boy can create atheory, without hardly any education at al in the subject, and it be almost exactly like another theory, ZPE and String, which has an extreme amount of education and mathematics in it? and no, i did not steal anyomne's theory. all of my work is orriginal, i just recently discovered both teh string theory and ZPE theory. the only conclusion i can come up with as to why i know this information, is an outside force. someone else is telling em the theory. peice by peice. they're taking their time with it. and now i'm getting to where i think much differently than everyone else. i've become kind of solitary as well. my vocabulary has gotten a bit bigger. but the way i think....~arh, this is VERY hard to describe~....i think, well, i guess it's a sense that the power of the mind is extremely powerful. and that EVERYTHING is a manipulant of the mind. that you can travl between dimensions and time with using your mind only. i think like, everything is possible, everything is "real" depending on how your mind precives it. if you think, dimensions are parallel, thent ehy are, but if you think, dimensions are unified, as i do, then they will be unified. both conclusions work out find. nothing wrong with either one of them. so tehy both can exist, you see what i mean?reality depends on your mind. it's all a mind thing. here, i will post a link to one of my previouse theories. please read it. there are a few mistakes in it, but i'm trying to fix them.

http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=28643

it explains more on the subject of how inol jello works specifically. remember, i don't think like everyone else does.

i hope you enjoy the theory.

 

[Barabbas]

There is good science on both sides of the aisle. Problems come with interpretations of what is seen. Many times it will come down to a matter of faith. I know this is not helpful in argueing with Evolution, but Creationism offers many powerful arguements right back.
Since the Age of Reason began, man has gradually begun to accept Science as the answer to all. It was not this way in centuries past.
Science has NOT seen all, it interprets and experiments, and probably a little bit too much, ASSUMES.
In olden days people worshipped crowns and purple robes. Now there is the tendency to worship lab coats. Well, enough philosophy.
There are numerous books on Creationism that will assist questions you have. They cover a variety of disciplines, from microbiology to astronomy which offer refutations against Evolution. Good science backs it up too.
Please keep in mind, that MAN has an innate tendency to move away from God. It has always been this way. Evolution merely offers yet one more route away from the Creator.
Yol Bolsun.

 

[cd27]

well thanks there friend . if i actually had some money, id go and get a few of thoe books, but i don't., so ican't.

 

[Andre3000]

Actually I think I see what you're saying cd27. My philosphy class went over something very much like you described. But be careful. You said that you think that everything is possible and everything is a manipulant of the mind. Those statements includes becoming God. The way you describe the power of the mind if one truly focuses on it makes it possible for a normal human being to become as powerful as God or become God itself. If all dimensions of the universe can be changed based on what a person believes, then that person is truly God. They are able to create a new universe for themselves by simply thinking it. The fact that you think so highly of the human mind suggests to me that you think each individual person has the ability to create their own universe and are therefore Gods.

I truly find your way of thinking fascinating. Very few people think orginal thoughts like yourself, even though it is more than possible for them to do so. I just think that you have to be careful of what you come up with. It's great to come up with new ways of looking at the universe, but there has to be a method to gather evidence to support these new ways of looking at the universe. I'd also be careful of what you say at this site. Not that I mind personally, but a lot of Christian members here will see your ideas as heretical and contrary to the Bible.

Keep up the search for knowledge though.

 

[cd27]

i see exactly where you are coming from, and believe me, i am careful. but let me explain to yo why we are not god's. for one, god himself said in the bible, he is the one god, and there shall be no other god's before him, that includes us. i do beleive we have that kind of power, al of us do, but it doesn't mean god would allow us to use it to our own will. if you had a daughter who is jsut now turning 7 and can't even care for herself, much less drive, drive your truck around the neigborhood, even if she had the "ability" to do so? i doubt it. god has the power to give us mind blocks to keep us from doing anything like that. he let's us do so very little with this power. he locks it so that we can;'t access it to any high extremes. we are not ready for it. there ar some epope who are, and those are the people who you hear that can move things across the room, telepathic, can read minds, and all otehr sorts of things, that is only a fraction of the power your mind has, a very small fraction.

could would not give someone the power if tehy could not use it intelligently. now, some people can use these powers, and some can use them for good, but then you have some who use them for bad. everything is planned out already. god already knows what you're going to do before you do it. but he can not intervene in your actually doing it, you have your self will. so if you wanted to hurt someone with this power that god has given you, he can only hoe that you use the powers wisely. all of these people who have this power, they are ready for it, god gave it to them because they are ready for it. they have the POTENTIAL to do good with it, but it's their choice ether or not they actually do use it for good. just because god knows what you're gonna do before you do it, doesn't mean he's not going to let you have your chance. a choice is better than no choice.

i don't know if you're a christian or not, but if you are, the thing god has placed on us to keep us from concentrating enough to be able to use these powers is sin. i know, god hates sin, and he does, because it poison's our spirits, but it's better than letting some 5 year old rule the world, isn't it?

the whole idea that someone is fascinated with how i think, well, that's flatering. i appreciate that. to be honest wiht you, i don't even know why i think like this. i just, do. it's a gift god gave me. i can only accept it, that is not something you deny. if god gives you something, take it willingly, because you have jsut earned yourself a place in the world with god's hand. this power is great, so great in fact that i nearly did not post it. but i did it anyways, because i know that only people with intelligence, people who are ready, would be able to do it, then it is their choice to use it wisely or not. there is an alternate way of doing this. but it woulkd require some high level technology. we would need a computer with a progam to do this, and a computer that could somehow deflect electromagnetic pulse shock waves and yet still us those electromagnetic pulse shock waves to do what the program wants it to do. if you read my Inol theory, and ireally hope you did, it suggests that time travel is possible. you can do it two ways, one, with your mind,a nd two, with a computer program and some really high tech gadgets.

if you ahve not already read my inol theory, PLEASE read it. it's exactly what i've been working on for the past year. i have written two science fiction novels, one with 60,000 words, and the otehr with 34,000 words. i ahve written over 100 songs, all very good lyrics and music, i ahve a formed band, working fine, but won't be able to actually play for another year, ebcause of finacing and stuff, and then i have my theory. all of this, i carry them all out at the exact same time, all but the novels, i did those from the age 14 to age 16, i am now 17. think for a second...can a seventeen year old even do that kind of stuff? much less do the ALL (but the novels) at the same time? may be hard to believe, but yes, i did it and am doing it. please, if you have any problems with my theory, tell me so that i can fix them, or explain to you what it means and possibly correct its context.

i would be more delighted to speak about my theory than about evolution, because i could really care less if some scientiss THINK the universe was created, i wouldn't give a rats butt, because none of us will truly know until the end of time when god answers al of oour questions directly. i am interested in proving my theory thoguh. if my inol theory were to be proven, you could not imagine how much technology would just jump. i mean it would skyrocket. but only if i can prove it to teh scientific world. that will be rather difficult to do. i wish i had some help here, my science team is scattered all over the world, even have different languages, so wehave obsticles in our way, any help would be appreciated.

 

[Barabbas]

You seem to have access to a computer. There are numerous Creationism sites with both questions and answers on them to assist in countering Evolution. Just type in Creation Science, Creation Evidence, or something similar, and start your research. Then again, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. There is much out there and there are always more questions, with some fascinating answers.
Yol Bolsun.

 

[cd27]

thank you, but, iwas talking about getting help proving my Inol theorgy. and i do appreciate the advice with finding evidence with creationism, it wil be useful.

 

[victorhadin]

As an alternative approach, would it not be better, rather than selectively searching for evidence to back your 'theory', to (as others have mentioned) look for evidence that disproves it instead? You must attack your theory from all angles as a sanity-check, and this includes asking one of the nastiest question:

'Is there any empirical evidence for this?'

Or:

'Does this model predict observable results/ phenomena?'

I may look at it if I have time (which is by no means a given), but you will pardon me for my cynicism. You have, after all, made out that evolution is a process of metamorphosis (!?), you have been kept back a couple of years in school and you believe the mind has limitless potential for moulding reality.

It sounds to me more like fantasy-weaving than anything else.

 

[reznwerks]

universe

there is a design to everything. look at the humna race, for example. not every human is the same, in fact, none are, not even twins, they have different personallities. this works just like an atom does, no one atome will be the same as the other. you have to remember that this is a finite universe, god is infinite. finite things break down,a nd are imperfect, god does not break down, so he is perfect. actually, to correct myself, let me state what the differences are between three words.

First you say their is design to everything and then say look at all the differences. Their is no evidence of a finite universe in fact it appears to be expanding. God is only infinite because you give him this attribute. He has not been proven to exist.



god is eternal, we are infinite, and the universe itself is finite. the universe can break down, and be destroyed. people tell me that i'm stupid for saying this, but how can you possibly say that the creation of the universe does not take a god to do?
It is very easy to say. We just don't have an answer to every question in the universe. Thats nothing to be ashamed of.


then some peope ask me, "well, if god created everything, who created god" simple, but not simple answer to that question. most people tell me i'm a fruitloop for saying this, but it mkes more senes than anything else i kow does. he created himself.
You have absolutely no evidence to this claim but you are willing to believe this instead of all the hard evidence that exists for evolution?

a god, who can be with every single person, at every single moment, must have the ability to travel back and forth in what we call "time" at his own will. i assume that he should anyways, because he did create it, so what is gonna stop him from "abusing" his own laws?
Great story! Have you tried selling it to Disney or Warner Bros.? This is imagination at its finest but you have no evidence to believe this.


my law of creationistc creation explains how he can do this, and a god would ahve that kind of powerquote]
LOL Making up your own laws are you? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts.

 

[Darrell dunn]

I haven;t read any of his books lately, but there is a Dr Tish that has $100,000 open offer to any one that will debate him in an open forum about evolution .

He has the information you need to disprove evolution. Check your library.

-____________________

There is one ABSOLUTE TRUTH and all else is a lie!!!!!!!

 

[reznwerks]

tish

I haven;t read any of his books lately, but there is a Dr Tish that has $100,000 open offer to any one that will debate him in an open forum about evolution .

He has the information you need to disprove evolution. Check your library.
Dr Tish is a she. More on this quack can be found here:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Tc ... %22+&hl=en
-____________________

There is one ABSOLUTE TRUTH and all else is a lie!!!!!!!

 

[BenjaminTC]

First of all, evolution does not cancel out intellegent design. You can believe that the earth was created by a god, and still believe evolution has and is occurring. You, however, cannot be a young earth creationist, or a fundamentalist Christian and still believe in evolution.

Your method of determining fact is faulty. You base your beliefs on a 'sacred cow' that cannot be changed. Then you proceed to find information to prove it. This is one of many methods known as psuedo-science. You should certainly reconsider your methods because your method will lead to supersticous, non scientific, and false beliefs. The scientific method is the opposite of your method. It is the best way of determining truth in these type of matters. You need to be extremely careful about what you assume to be true. (You don't know that the universe is finite, you dont know that the human race was designed, etc.)

You do not need money to learn about evolution; you can go to the library. There are many good resources online even.