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[__ Science __ ] Evolution and Harmless Mutations

WIP

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Most non Christians don't need anyone to scientifically prove god exists. I cannot prove that my wive loves me but I have a lot of evidence to believe that she does. Is there any evidence that can sway a belief?
I think the problem is that too many Christians think it is our responsibility or duty to prove our faith or convince non-believers of the truth. That is not what we are called to do. We are called to be witnesses and a witness does nothing except share what they believe and perhaps explain why. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit.
 

Not_Now.Soon

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I guess I don't understand why Christians care. Most will believe the bible over science on this subject from my experience. So why do so many try to debunk it?
I think there's so much that is hinged on evolution. It's become a common belief of fact instead of as an explaination of data and observations. It's become a pillar and foundation for no belief in God. Then on top of that the identity of evolution as a sphere of study has morphed from a biological study to a common phrase for change, growth, and the continuous movement of events and behavior. Since evolution is counted as being true, then every theory or chance conversation that mentions evolution plays on that foundation to support their own theory and opinions.

Because of it's large support base, the only ones who would actively try to debunk it would largely be those that are antigonized by it by nonbelievers who try to debunk their faith. Anyone else might consider evolution, as well as consider any claim that has evolution as part of it's claim regardless if evolution actually does fit there, or if it is a theory not relating to biology and evolution at all.

For me I'd go with the idea that the conclusions of evolution are conclusions not the data. It is usually just as plausible conclusion for most studies to say that "God made things this way," as it can be to say that "things evolved this way," when the topic doesn't include how the changes progressed or if there was a progression. People can even incoperate change as part of God's actions, instead of calling the change an act of evolution. There can be a drastic change of conclusion even while looking at simular data and evidence.
 

Barbarian

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I guess the sad part is that evolution can't be observed.
It's observed every day. Remember what evolution is. "A change in allele frequencies in a population over time."

At least not evolution that refers to a change in kinds.
"Kind", is a religious belief, not any sort of demonstrable classification. But of course, speciation is well-demonstrated, and that is all that's necessary for common descent. Do you see why.

Some scientists fail to understand the difference between evolution and adaptation.
Rather, YE creationists don't realize that sentence involves a conflation of physiologic response (such as making more red blood cells at higher altitudes) with genetic adaptation, (such as having a mutation that allows healthy living at very high altitudes).

I suppose as people, we fear the unknown and must strive to understand it in order to explain it. No, some can't enjoy the feeling of awe to know that something looks amazing just because that is the way God designed it.
I feel sorry for those who don't wonder about such things. How dreary the world must be for them. The more one knows about the details of His creation, the more wonderous it becomes.
 

Barbarian

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I think there's so much that is hinged on evolution. It's become a common belief of fact instead of as an explaination of data and observations.
For those who don't know anything about it, perhaps.

It's become a pillar and foundation for no belief in God.
Since Darwin thought God created the first living things, that seems rather unlikely to me.

Then on top of that the identity of evolution as a sphere of study has morphed from a biological study to a common phrase for change, growth, and the continuous movement of events and behavior.
You have it backwards. "Evolution" originally meant just "change." If that bothers you, you might consider using Darwin's choice of terms. "Descent with modification."

Since evolution is counted as being true, then every theory or chance conversation that mentions evolution plays on that foundation to support their own theory and opinions.
It's directly observed. So not much chance of rational people doubting it.

Because of it's large support base, the only ones who would actively try to debunk it would largely be those that are antigonized by it by nonbelievers who try to debunk their faith.
Seems unlikely, given the large number of theists who acknowledge the fact of evolution.

For me I'd go with the idea that the conclusions of evolution are conclusions not the data.
The data are evolution. Often, creationists confuse evolution (the observed phenomenon) with agents of evolution (such as natural selection) and consequences of evolution (such as common descent).

It is usually just as plausible conclusion for most studies to say that "God made things this way," as it can be to say that "things evolved this way,"
Two ways of saying the same thing.
 

Barbarian

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OTOH, evolutionists believe all we see came from a one celled organism.
The evidence shows all life on Earth had a common ancestor.

And what sparked that life?
Evolutionary theory isn't about the origin of life. Darwin, for example, thought that God just created the first living things. Most scientists today, think that the Earth brought forth living things, as God says in Genesis.

But we find out more and more -- and the more we find out,,,the more unplausible evolution seems...
In my own (admittedly long) lifetime, I've seen numerous predictions of evolutionary theory confirmed. This is why scientists accept it as compelling.

Darwin said the Cambrian Explosion presented a problem which he hoped future science would be able to explain...
Not quite. He acknowledged the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record as it was known in his day. Again, in my lifetime, almost every major group of organisms, now has many transitional forms that have been discovered since Darwin.

This is why YE creationist Kurt Wise acknowledges that the many transitional series in the fossil record are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

Somewhat later, the "Cambrian explosion" was presented as a puzzle. The discovery of many, many forms of Precambrian life, including many complex animals with forms thought to have evolved much later, put that to rest.
 

Barbarian

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Hi Barb...
Are you around?
I have a video I'd like you to view and then tell me what you think of it.... I understand legitimate scientists are beginning to think in this direction....I thought only Keanu Reeves knew about this stuff...

Give it a chance and let me know if you've heard about this information stuff....I've been thinking this for years.
The video erroneously assumes that something can't arise from nothing.

Virtual particles are directly observed to arise from nothing.

And there is no substance of space. Morely/Michaelson demonstrated that. "Holographic" .... ?

So some key flaws in the assumptions.

On the other hand, if God created this universe for us, it is a temporary "reality" created with particular, internally consistent rules.

It's an old idea. Read "Non Servium" in the collection The Mind's I by Douglas Hoffstader.
 

wondering

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The video erroneously assumes that something can't arise from nothing.

Virtual particles are directly observed to arise from nothing.

And there is no substance of space. Morely/Michaelson demonstrated that. "Holographic" .... ?

So some key flaws in the assumptions.

On the other hand, if God created this universe for us, it is a temporary "reality" created with particular, internally consistent rules.

It's an old idea. Read "Non Servium" in the collection The Mind's I by Douglas Hoffstader.
All my life I've heard science say that the universe always existed because something CANNOT come from nothing.

Then the Big Bang.

Now I heard that something CAN come from nothing due to the BB.

Now I hear guys like Lawrence Krauss say that nothing could create something and that there is no empty space.

Even if there is no empty space,,,what created the first OF ANYTHING?

It seems to me that scientists are twisting ideas around because they don't like the idea of an ID.

I don't see how it could be otherwise.
If I make a watch, I can't be part of that watch.
Something on the "outside" of space and time had to make what we see.

This makes much more sense to me than something being created out of nothing.

However, I think we'll all just have to wait and see.

Been watching a lot of youtube about this lately.

Dr. Tour is a chemist and he doesn't understand evolution either...as do other scientists I've been listening to.

 

Nathan12

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Dr. Tour is a chemist and he doesn't understand evolution either...as do other scientists I've been listening to.
Fantasy is meant to give them a chuckle. Not to be taken too seriously. It is simply amazing how so many major hoaxes have been perpetrated and taken seriously. The latest was the Mueller Witch Hunt, which was pure fantasy, and should have been shut down by Trump immediately.
 

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