Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

[_ Old Earth _] Evolution cannot explain the information in life

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,038.00
Goal
$1,038.00
TheRabidWolverine said:
Asimov said:
:roll:

Another huge hole in the theory of evolution is the fact that evolution has no explanation for the coded information that is present in all living organisms. Without the coded information present in the DNA of every living thing, life simply would not be possible. But the naturalistic processes of evolution have no observed ability to create that coded information.

Not yet, anyway, flinx. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I find it strange that skeptics frequently use the "absence of evidence" argument when debating the validity of the Bible, but then turn around and say it doesn't work when debating evolution.

Because in the case of the Bible there is no observational way to confirm its claims.

The bible is a book. That's it. You believe it is inspired by god, I do not. However, there is no independent way of verifying that claim. Many christians claim that it occurs through personal revelation....but to those who haven't had a revelation (such as myself) that argument falls flat.

Particularly since christianity isn't the only religion to make such a claim. Most religions claim personal experience as evidence. And you would agree with me that all those "other" religions are utterly false.

With evolution, however, we have observational data we can analyze. You said there is an "absence of evidence" for evolution. You are flat wrong. There is ample evidence. Is there proof that you would accept? Probably not today. The major hurdle for creationists (since most tend to accept adaptation) is major speciation, which very simply takes quite a long time in most cases.

You are in essence asking for observational data spanning hundreds of thousands of years. Given that we have only contemplated evolution for about 150 years, it makes it a tad difficult to deliver on your demands.

I can visit the Galapogos and come to the same conclusions as Darwin. I can research cosmology and verify the mathematics of their calculations. I can have a child with a genetic mutation. I need no text or guidelines other than my eyes and reason to discern for myself whether or not evolution and cosmological claims are correct.

To the contrary, I've read the bible numerous times. For the life of me I can't prove a darn thing in it. No more so that I can with Harry Potter or Qu'ran.

And just for arguments sake....besides evolution, what other theory exists to explain the diversity of life on earth besides: "God made them all individually". Since you believe that evolution is so irrational, what other possible method could explain for this diversity besides your "one-at-a-time-created" theory?
 
evidence

TheRabidWolverine said:
[

I find it strange that skeptics frequently use the "absence of evidence" argument when debating the validity of the Bible, but then turn around and say it doesn't work when debating evolution.
The "absence of evidence" that skeptics use regarding the bible and religion in general is that their is absolutely NO evidence to confirm the fantastic claims or promises made by a particular religion.
There is a wealth of evidence regarding evolution and so much in fact that 98% of those studying it accept it as fact. They may not all agree as to the exact process that evolution uses but they do agree that evolution is a fact of life. Unanswered questions regarding evolution is not evidence of a creator.
 
Reznwerks wrote:
The "absence of evidence" that skeptics use regarding the bible and religion in general is that their is absolutely NO evidence to confirm the fantastic claims or promises made by a particular religion.
There is a wealth of evidence regarding evolution and so much in fact that 98% of those studying it accept it as fact. They may not all agree as to the exact process that evolution uses but they do agree that evolution is a fact of life. Unanswered questions regarding evolution is not evidence of a creator.

Evolutionism is a house of cards built on a set of faulty premises. While Creationism can’t technically be classified as science, neither can Evolutionism. In fact, Evolutionism fit’s the description of a religion if you examine it objectively. The study of man’s origins is no more science than the archeological findings of those excavating an old cellar to determine the history of a past generation. This is history, not science. The fact that it’s theories are taught in school is utterly preposterous when the study of God’s Word is ruled illegal. At least equal time should be allotted to study archeological findings of ancient Biblical sites and it’s significance to creationism. How many school children learned that the walls of Jericho actually fell outward, just as the Bible describes, for instance?
 
Flinx said:
But the naturalistic processes of evolution have no observed ability to create that coded information.

Actually, this isn't completely true. It has been proved that genes and DNA replicate themselves, and in so doing they will sometimes modify themselves slightly. This may be beneficial to the organism, or it may be detrimental. When organisms mate and offspring is created, a new genetic structure is made from the gametes of the parents. Each gamete has exactly half of the genetic information of the parent present. These two gametes will join to create a totally new and unique offspring from the parents.

It should be noted that the study of evolution does not cover where DNA came from originally, nor how it was first created. Evolution simply covers why the animals you see now are not like the skeletons we find in the ground.
 
past

unred typo said:
Reznwerks wrote:
The "absence of evidence" that skeptics use regarding the bible and religion in general is that their is absolutely NO evidence to confirm the fantastic claims or promises made by a particular religion.
There is a wealth of evidence regarding evolution and so much in fact that 98% of those studying it accept it as fact. They may not all agree as to the exact process that evolution uses but they do agree that evolution is a fact of life. Unanswered questions regarding evolution is not evidence of a creator.

Evolutionism is a house of cards built on a set of faulty premises.
Whoever told you this does not know what they are talking about. The evidence is there to show that evolution is a reality. The exact process may be in dispute but evolution is fact.

While Creationism can’t technically be classified as science, thank you neither can Evolutionism. In fact, Evolutionism fit’s the description of a religion if you examine it objectively.
Not really. Evolution uses facts and real evidence to come to its conclusion. Religion is based purely on faith without evidence.

The study of man’s origins is no more science than the archeological findings of those excavating an old cellar to determine the history of a past generation. This is history, not science.
By what other criteria is one to gain knowledge of ones past than to examine the remnants of that past? Are we to throw out the evidence of what we can see and accept the stories of those we don't know and stories that can't be validated. Which would you choose, the bird in the hand or the two flying overhead?

The fact that it’s theories are taught in school is utterly preposterous when the study of God’s Word is ruled illegal.
Its not preposterous as the evidence can be seen by anyone at anytime and they can look at the reason the evidence concludes a certain outcome. There is absolutely no evidence of God or that the the bible is factual in its promises and claims.

At least equal time should be allotted to study archeological findings of ancient Biblical sites and it’s significance to creationism.
There is absolutely no relation to biblical archeological findings and the claims of creationism in the bible. We know where the bible originated and we know who followed its dictates. What is not known and the evidence is lacking are the claims that a supernatural being favors one tribe over another and claims to be the supreme ruler over all.

How many school children learned that the walls of Jericho actually fell outward, just as the Bible describes, for instance?

Whether the walls of Jericho fell inwardly or outwardly doesn't matter. The bible has some history , some cultural laws and some fanastic promises. Just because some of the history is correct doesn't mean everything is correct or accurate. Since you brought up the walls of Jericho they are dated to 10000 years ago which still throws out the 6000 year earth.
 
Reznwerks wrote:
Whoever told you this does not know what they are talking about. The evidence is there to show that evolution is a reality. The exact process may be in dispute but evolution is fact.
Says your evolutionist. Christianity is undisputed truth to Christians. Actually, I do believe there is evidence for evolution of the species that was built into them when they were created or their DNA was adjusted for their environment at some later juncture. This only proves the amazing creativity of our Maker. It doesn’t take millions of years for God to accomplish.


Reznwerks wrote:
Not really. Evolution uses facts and real evidence to come to its conclusion. Religion is based purely on faith without evidence.
You just don’t accept the written records of the Jews as evidence. You would rather dig up bone fragments and invent your own past.


Reznwerks wrote:
By what other criteria is one to gain knowledge of ones past than to examine the remnants of that past? Are we to throw out the evidence of what we can see and accept the stories of those we don't know and stories that can't be validated. Which would you choose, the bird in the hand or the two flying overhead?
Whether the walls of Jericho fell inwardly or outwardly doesn't matter. The bible has some history , some cultural laws and some fanastic promises. Just because some of the history is correct doesn't mean everything is correct or accurate. Since you brought up the walls of Jericho they are dated to 10000 years ago which still throws out the 6000 year earth.
You see this is history, not science. If you use scientific methods to discover the evidence of a murder committed, is it then science and not a crime investigation? If you use scientific methods to reconstruct the events of a war through battlefield artifacts, is it now science instead of history?
Evolutionary claims as to what eras different layers of earth represent and what animals were living during those time frames, are historical in nature, not scientific. This is not science but history and since it is claimed to be prehistoric, without written witnesses, it can not be conclusively proven. Since the origin of the earth and it’s creatures involves their creation by whatever means and must be taken by faith in certain beliefs, it is more religious than anything. The Bible has been proven many times over by archeological discoveries but those reports have been systematically brushed aside with false dates (as you have shown) or reinterpreted to fit non biblical scenarios.

We mere mortals are stuck believing by faith. We like to think we have solid proof but except for a privileged few prophets, we must trust other’s pronouncements. When was the last time you studied an isotope eye to eye? When our whole lives won’t span a fraction of what is claimed to be their half lives, it’s really a matter of faith. If I told you that you could determine a bird’s age by the number of feathers on his back, there would be ways that you could falsify my claims. The carbon 14 dating hoax is not as easily exposed since any discrepancies are discounted as anomalies. When anything is submitted for dating, an estimated dating target is required. If there is no proof of it’s age, who can say if the dates are wrong?


Reznwerks wrote:
There is absolutely no relation to biblical archeological findings and the claims of creationism in the bible. We know where the bible originated and we know who followed its dictates. What is not known and the evidence is lacking are the claims that a supernatural being favors one tribe over another and claims to be the supreme ruler over all.
God chose Abraham to be the ancestor of the human who would be God’s only begotten son. The choice was God’s to make since it would be His very own offspring. The Israelites were to be the light of God in the world. Instead, they became in many ways a burden and an embarrassment to Him but He remained faithful to His promise to Abraham and mankind.
 
truth

unred typo said:
Reznwerks wrote:
Whoever told you this does not know what they are talking about. The evidence is there to show that evolution is a reality. The exact process may be in dispute but evolution is fact.
Says your evolutionist. Christianity is undisputed truth to Christians.
I have no doubt that Christians believe what they profess. Believing doesn't make it true.

Actually, I do believe there is evidence for evolution of the species that was built into them when they were created or their DNA was adjusted for their environment at some later juncture. This only proves the amazing creativity of our Maker. It doesn’t take millions of years for God to accomplish.
So now you know the inner workings and logistics of how God works?


Reznwerks wrote: [quote:9bcd1] Not really. Evolution uses facts and real evidence to come to its conclusion. Religion is based purely on faith without evidence.
You just don’t accept the written records of the Jews as evidence. You would rather dig up bone fragments and invent your own past.
Some of the records of the Jews are accurate and some are not. For instance there is no shred of evidence that they were captive by the Egyptians nor is there any record of them wandering in the dessert unseen for forty years. The dessert is just not that big to not leave charred pits or live in the dessert without detection by other tribes and some of them must have been hostile. The Egyptian records record nothing of the sort and this is only the beginning.


Reznwerks wrote:
By what other criteria is one to gain knowledge of ones past than to examine the remnants of that past? Are we to throw out the evidence of what we can see and accept the stories of those we don't know and stories that can't be validated. Which would you choose, the bird in the hand or the two flying overhead?
Whether the walls of Jericho fell inwardly or outwardly doesn't matter. The bible has some history , some cultural laws and some fanastic promises. Just because some of the history is correct doesn't mean everything is correct or accurate. Since you brought up the walls of Jericho they are dated to 10000 years ago which still throws out the 6000 year earth.
You see this is history, not science. If you use scientific methods to discover the evidence of a murder committed, is it then science and not a crime investigation? If you use scientific methods to reconstruct the events of a war through battlefield artifacts, is it now science instead of history?

Truth is truth no matter where you find it. Science and the evidence will confirm in many instances what actually occurred not necessarilly what was believed. This is why many people in prison for rape are now walking free because the scientific evidence proves that someone else was there and not what was "believed" to have happened.
Evolutionary claims as to what eras different layers of earth represent and what animals were living during those time frames, are historical in nature, not scientific. This is not science but history and since it is claimed to be prehistoric, without written witnesses, it can not be conclusively proven.
Where did you take science classes. Undisturbed earth and bedrock can easily be studied and it is both scientific and historical.

Since the origin of the earth and it’s creatures involves their creation by whatever means and must be taken by faith in certain beliefs, it is more religious than anything.
No only theists accept the claims of creation by belief. Science works with evidence and facts religion only works with belief and all too often the belief does not hold up to scientific knowledge.

The Bible has been proven many times over by archeological discoveries but those reports have been systematically brushed aside with false dates (as you have shown) or reinterpreted to fit non biblical scenarios.
The bible is a valuable insight in some historical excavations but to being accurate in everthing leaves much to be desired.Just because some things might be accurate does not mean everything is and that has been proven many times as well.

We mere mortals are stuck believing by faith. We like to think we have solid proof but except for a privileged few prophets, we must trust other’s pronouncements.
Why are you so willing to accept what you can't see or dispute what you do see for what has been told by those with only first names , no credentials, no record for accuracy, motives for writing, motives for lying, accuracy in copying and etc etc etc?

When was the last time you studied an isotope eye to eye? When our whole lives won’t span a fraction of what is claimed to be their half lives, it’s really a matter of faith. If I told you that you could determine a bird’s age by the number of feathers on his back, there would be ways that you could falsify my claims.
No, if science if makng the claim they would provide a method of testing that would make the claim testable and verifiable in the majority of cases rendering that method and claim true. Deliberatily falsifying a test can be corrected by using the correct procedure.As I said when science makes claims there is someone there looking to debunk it and get the glory.

The carbon 14 dating hoax is not as easily exposed since any discrepancies are discounted as anomalies. When anything is submitted for dating, an estimated dating target is required. If there is no proof of it’s age, who can say if the dates are wrong?
Carbon 14 dating is not a hoax as it has been tested by studied by thousands of people that know far more than you or I. If it is not perfect so what. It is far more accurate than belief. What you really fail to understand is that we know the decay rate for Carbon 14 as it does not change . It has been repeatedly tested over and over and sorry to say for you the 6000 year earth is a fairy tale .


Reznwerks wrote:
There is absolutely no relation to biblical archeological findings and the claims of creationism in the bible. We know where the bible originated and we know who followed its dictates. What is not known and the evidence is lacking are the claims that a supernatural being favors one tribe over another and claims to be the supreme ruler over all.
God chose Abraham to be the ancestor of the human who would be God’s only begotten son. The choice was God’s to make since it would be His very own offspring. The Israelites were to be the light of God in the world. Instead, they became in many ways a burden and an embarrassment to Him but He remained faithful to His promise to Abraham and mankind.
Only in the bible and the bible is not a text book.[/quote:9bcd1]
 
Me, earlier:“Actually, I do believe there is evidence for evolution of the species that was built into them when they were created or their DNA was adjusted for their environment at some later juncture. This only proves the amazing creativity of our Maker. It doesn’t take millions of years for God to accomplish.â€Â
Reznwerks wrote:
So now you know the inner workings and logistics of how God works?
From observation we can see he has created tadpoles than change readily to frogs, the gradual development of embryos into offspring, and the changes within dog, cat, horse and other humanly manipulated breeds of animals. None of these things take millions of years to accomplish and they show a pattern in the workings of God’s creativity.

Reznwerks wrote:
Some of the records of the Jews are accurate and some are not. For instance there is no shred of evidence that they were captive by the Egyptians nor is there any record of them wandering in the dessert unseen for forty years. The dessert is just not that big to not leave charred pits or live in the dessert without detection by other tribes and some of them must have been hostile. The Egyptian records record nothing of the sort and this is only the beginning.
You can find experts on both sides of that issue. It basically boils down to ‘who do you want to believe?’

Reznwerks wrote:
Truth is truth no matter where you find it. Science and the evidence will confirm in many instances what actually occurred not necessarilly what was believed. This is why many people in prison for rape are now walking free because the scientific evidence proves that someone else was there and not what was "believed" to have happened.
Where did you take science classes. Undisturbed earth and bedrock can easily be studied and it is both scientific and historical.
No, only theists accept the claims of creation by belief. Science works with evidence and facts religion only works with belief and all too often the belief does not hold up to scientific knowledge.

Science is a wonderful thing in many cases. Like anything, it can be abused and evidence can be misinterpreted. When you step over the boundary of what can be proven and confirmed by blind tests, which you declare to be indisputable fact, you have misused it for your own theories, ambitions and goals.

Reznwerks wrote:
Why are you so willing to accept what you can't see or dispute what you do see for what has been told by those with only first names , no credentials, no record for accuracy, motives for writing, motives for lying, accuracy in copying and etc etc etc?

Who do you trust? Everyone must make those determinations based on their own conscience and evaluations and go with their gut instincts. Personally, I concluded that if God truly did exist, and this was his creation, he was a remarkable being; complex and capable beyond anything that man could conceive of. I resolved to approach him personally and ask for his guidance into truth about him and found he has given me assurance and convictions to change many beliefs and accept things that really can’t be explained to those who have not experienced or rather, noticed his presence. I know that sounds like a cop out but that is the best I can do. ‘To thine own self be true’ is the best advice to follow.

Reznwerks wrote:
No, if science if makng the claim they would provide a method of testing that would make the claim testable and verifiable in the majority of cases rendering that method and claim true. Deliberatily falsifying a test can be corrected by using the correct procedure.As I said when science makes claims there is someone there looking to debunk it and get the glory.
Unless the one debunking it is a creationist. Then they are ridiculed and ignored. The TOE can not be stepped on. Just like the toes of the idol in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, it is mixed iron and clay and will one day crumble.

Reznwerks wrote:
Carbon 14 dating is not a hoax as it has been tested by studied by thousands of people that know far more than you or I. If it is not perfect so what. It is far more accurate than belief. What you really fail to understand is that we know the decay rate for Carbon 14 as it does not change . It has been repeatedly tested over and over and sorry to say for you the 6000 year earth is a fairy tale .

This is from the site you gave on carbon 14: The raw BP date cannot be used directly as a calendar date, because the assumption that the level of 14C absorption remains constant does not hold true in practice. The level is maintained by high energy particles interacting with the earth's upper atmosphere, which may be affected by changes in the earth's magnetic field or in the cosmic ray background, e.g. variations caused by solar storms. In addition there are substantial reservoirs of carbon in organic matter, the ocean, ocean sediments (see methane hydrate), and sedimentary rocks; and changing climate can sometimes disrupt the carbon flow between these reservoirs and the atmosphere. The level has also been affected by human activities -- it was almost doubled for a short period due to atomic bomb tests in the 1950s and 1960s and has been reduced by the release of large amounts of CO2 from ancient organic sources where 14C is not present -- the fossil fuels used in industry and transportation.
These are just a few of the things known to effect your prize method.
 
evidence

unred typo said:
Me, earlier:“Actually, I do believe there is evidence for evolution of the species that was built into them when they were created or their DNA was adjusted for their environment at some later juncture. This only proves the amazing creativity of our Maker. It doesn’t take millions of years for God to accomplish.â€Â
Then why didn't God make them that way the first time. You contradict what the bible says. God didn't use evolution according to the bible as he made them after their kind etc.


Reznwerks wrote:
So now you know the inner workings and logistics of how God works?
From observation we can see he has created tadpoles than change readily to frogs, the gradual development of embryos into offspring, and the changes within dog, cat, horse and other humanly manipulated breeds of animals. None of these things take millions of years to accomplish and they show a pattern in the workings of God’s creativity.
There is creativity but it is not from God. If you look at tadpoles they look just like human sperm. If you look at developing embryos of different mammals they all look alike in the beginning.

Reznwerks wrote:[quote:421e8]Some of the records of the Jews are accurate and some are not. For instance there is no shred of evidence that they were captive by the Egyptians nor is there any record of them wandering in the dessert unseen for forty years. The dessert is just not that big to not leave charred pits or live in the dessert without detection by other tribes and some of them must have been hostile. The Egyptian records record nothing of the sort and this is only the beginning.
You can find experts on both sides of that issue. It basically boils down to ‘who do you want to believe?’
The only "experts" on the other side are theists. The facts are as I presented and it is not a matter of what you want to believe but what are you willing to give up when the evidence doesn't support your belief.

Reznwerks wrote:
Truth is truth no matter where you find it. Science and the evidence will confirm in many instances what actually occurred not necessarilly what was believed. This is why many people in prison for rape are now walking free because the scientific evidence proves that someone else was there and not what was "believed" to have happened.
Where did you take science classes. Undisturbed earth and bedrock can easily be studied and it is both scientific and historical.
No, only theists accept the claims of creation by belief. Science works with evidence and facts religion only works with belief and all too often the belief does not hold up to scientific knowledge.

Science is a wonderful thing in many cases. Like anything, it can be abused and evidence can be misinterpreted. When you step over the boundary of what can be proven and confirmed by blind tests, which you declare to be indisputable fact, you have misused it for your own theories, ambitions and goals.
Then what evidence do you present outside of your belief that the bible is true?

Reznwerks wrote:
Why are you so willing to accept what you can't see or dispute what you do see for what has been told by those with only first names , no credentials, no record for accuracy, motives for writing, motives for lying, accuracy in copying and etc etc etc?

Who do you trust? Everyone must make those determinations based on their own conscience and evaluations and go with their gut instincts.
When thousands of people study and confirm the evidence I will trust them over a book written by anonymous authors filled with errors and contradictions and lacks any provable evidence. Remember some evidence is far better than none and believable evidence is better than fantastic claims without any.


Personally, I concluded that if God truly did exist, and this was his creation, he was a remarkable being; complex and capable beyond anything that man could conceive of. I resolved to approach him personally and ask for his guidance into truth about him and found he has given me assurance and convictions to change many beliefs and accept things that really can’t be explained to those who have not experienced or rather, noticed his presence. I know that sounds like a cop out but that is the best I can do. ‘To thine own self be true’ is the best advice to follow.

Reznwerks wrote:
No, if science if makng the claim they would provide a method of testing that would make the claim testable and verifiable in the majority of cases rendering that method and claim true. Deliberatily falsifying a test can be corrected by using the correct procedure.As I said when science makes claims there is someone there looking to debunk it and get the glory.
Unless the one debunking it is a creationist. Then they are ridiculed and ignored. The TOE can not be stepped on. Just like the toes of the idol in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, it is mixed iron and clay and will one day crumble.
I can't recall any theist presenting any scientifice paper and having it published in any serious scientific publication. Do you know why? In order to do so they would have to show evidence. They don't have any.

Reznwerks wrote:
Carbon 14 dating is not a hoax as it has been tested by studied by thousands of people that know far more than you or I. If it is not perfect so what. It is far more accurate than belief. What you really fail to understand is that we know the decay rate for Carbon 14 as it does not change . It has been repeatedly tested over and over and sorry to say for you the 6000 year earth is a fairy tale .

This is from the site you gave on carbon 14: The raw BP date cannot be used directly as a calendar date, because the assumption that the level of 14C absorption remains constant does not hold true in practice. The level is maintained by high energy particles interacting with the earth's upper atmosphere, which may be affected by changes in the earth's magnetic field or in the cosmic ray background, e.g. variations caused by solar storms. In addition there are substantial reservoirs of carbon in organic matter, the ocean, ocean sediments (see methane hydrate), and sedimentary rocks; and changing climate can sometimes disrupt the carbon flow between these reservoirs and the atmosphere. The level has also been affected by human activities -- it was almost doubled for a short period due to atomic bomb tests in the 1950s and 1960s and has been reduced by the release of large amounts of CO2 from ancient organic sources where 14C is not present -- the fossil fuels used in industry and transportation.
These are just a few of the things known to effect your prize method.
Funny how it is still being used and accepted as accurate enough for its purpose. Your only goal is to discredit its use at any cost to maintain your belief in a 6000 year earth. It ain't gonna happen. The walls of Jericho are 9000 years old and that should be enough to get you off this idea.
[/quote:421e8]
 
Reznwerks wrote:
Then why didn't God make them that way the first time. You contradict what the bible says. God didn't use evolution according to the bible as he made them after their kind etc.
We classify them differently than God does. We may say tigers and lions are different kinds but they may both be descended from a common ancestor that God created originally. He created them that way and inbreeding within a small segment of the population caused them to develop specialized characteristics of fur patterns and body size and shape. Can you believe that poodles and greyhounds are the same kind? What happens when you mix their genes back together again? You get generic mongrels. Why did God create them so they could adapt and survive in their surroundings? Duh.

Reznwerks wrote:
There is creativity but it is not from God. If you look at tadpoles they look just like human sperm. If you look at developing embryos of different mammals they all look alike in the beginning.
That reminds me of an evolutionary hoax. LOL. The point was that growth and development and change are part of God’s creative design features and it happens in a few days or a few months or a few years, it does not need millions.


Reznwerks wrote:
The only "experts" on the other side are theists. The facts are as I presented and it is not a matter of what you want to believe but what are you willing to give up when the evidence doesn't support your belief.
What? You think any expert on the other side on that issue would not believe in God? They would have to be irrationally insane to be an atheistic expert who accepted the evidence as supporting the Biblical accounts yet denied the existence of the author. Is that your catch 22 version of the argument?


Reznwerks wrote:
Then what evidence do you present outside of your belief that the bible is true? Then what evidence do you present outside of your belief that the bible is true?
Why don’t you go to your local Bible bookstore and get a good book on the subject? Or do a web search. Isn’t that your standard answer for me? I don’t have time to read to you….insert creationist web site here…

Reznwerks wrote:
When thousands of people study and confirm the evidence I will trust them over a book written by anonymous authors filled with errors and contradictions and lacks any provable evidence. Remember some evidence is far better than none and believable evidence is better than fantastic claims without any.
Do you spend as much time on Islam sites? Why don’t you try converting them since they are much more dangerous to society at large? Why is it so important to denounce Christianity? Could it be you have motives inspired by enemies of God? The unjustifiable intense opposition to God is another evidence of the “fantastic claims†of the Bible. The Bible describes a spiritual war against God that can be witnessed on every part of the globe and inside our very own minds if we are honest.


Reznwerks wrote:
I can't recall any theist presenting any scientifice paper and having it published in any serious scientific publication. Do you know why? In order to do so they would have to show evidence. They don't have any.
(About carbon dating: )Funny how it is still being used and accepted as accurate enough for its purpose. Your only goal is to discredit its use at any cost to maintain your belief in a 6000 year earth. It ain't gonna happen. The walls of Jericho are 9000 years old and that should be enough to get you off this idea.
You have a lop sided view of things. You should expand your horizons beyond the limits of your filtered evo sites. Here’s a little reading for you:
Kathleen Kenyon, who excavated Jericho wrote in her book, Archaeology in the Holy Land, page 134,
"The final end of the early Bronze Age civilization came with catastrophic completeness. The last of the Early Bronze Age walls of Jericho was built in a great hurry, using old and broken bricks, and was probably not completed when it was destroyed by fire. Little or none of the town inside the walls has survived subsequent denudation, but it was probably completely destroyed, for all the finds show that there was an absolute break, and that a new people took the place of the earlier inhabitants. Every town in Palestine that has so far been investigated shows the same break. The newcomers were nomads, not interested in town life, and they so completely drove out or absorbed the old population, perhaps already weakened and decadent, that all traces of the Early Bronze Age civilization disappeared."
"An absolute break . . . a new people . . . every town in Palestine . . . newcomers were nomads . . . completely drove out or absorbed the old population . . . " Could we expect to find a more apt description of the Israelite invasion - nomads from the desert who initially were not interested in living in the cities?
James Pritchard, who excavated in Gibeon in 1956, found the same types of evidence. Writing of his own discoveries at Gibeon he stated,
"These relics of the Middle Bronze l people seem to indicate a fresh migration into the town of a nomadic people who brought with them an entirely new tradition in pottery forms and new customs in burial practices. They may have come into Palestine from the desert at the crossing of the Jordan near Jericho and may then have pushed on to settle eventually at places such as Gibeon, Tel el-Ajjul and Lachish, where tombs of this distinctive type have been found."
Gibeon, Where the Sun Stood Still page 153.
Nothing could more aptly fit the Biblical record of the Israelites coming in from their desert wanderings, crossing the Jordan at Jericho and occupying the Promised Land.
Second came the period of affluence and power during the centuries of the Israelite monarchy when King David and his son Solomon, under the direction of God, enlarged and enriched the nation. (as mentioned earlier in the article) Concerning the Middle Bronze IIB Period, prominent Israeli archaeologist Dr Amihai Mazar wrote,
"The Middle Bronze Age architecture was to a large extent innovative and original. Together with the massive fortifications of this period, it evidences a thriving, prosperous urban culture. The magnitude of the palaces and temples manifests the wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the autocracy and theocracy of the period."
Archaeology of the Land of the Bible page 213. (Double Day 1990)
Third came the exile into Assyria and Babylon when large portions of the population were despatched into captivity. Writing soon after the Assyrian conquest of Israel in 722 BC the prophet said: "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire; strangers devour your land in your presence; and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers." Isaiah 1:7. We should find in this next layer, the Late Bronze Age, evidence of a depleted population, and we do.
Israeli archaeologist Israel Finklestein wrote,
"The entire country flourished in MBIIB - fortified cities, villages, and individual farms were founded throughout the region . . . In contrast to the extraordinary prosperity of MB II, the Late Bronze period was characterized by a severe crisis in settlement . . . Moreover, those sites where occupation did continue, frequently shrank in size."
The Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement page 339-341. (Israel Exploration Society, Jerusalem 1988)
Fourth came the return from exile when many of the Israelites migrated back to their original lands. "The whole congregation (which returned under Ezra) together was forty-two thousand three hundred and sixty." Ezra 2:64. Finklestein wrote,
"The Iron I period again witnessed a dramatic swing in the population of the hill country, this time in the opposite direction."
And then he voices the dilemma that faces archaeologists because of their wrong dates.
"MB II, Late Bronze and Iron I periods . . . leave two critical questions for which satisfactory answers must be found. Why and to where did over half of the MB II population, i.e., virtually all the inhabitants of the hill country, 'vanish'? From where did the people who settled the hundreds of sites in Iron I 'materialise'?"
If Israel Finklestein changed his dates he would soon have the answers. It was a period of danger and hardship. Building activity was slow. "Those who built the wall, and those who carried burdens, loaded themselves so that with one hand they worked at construction, and with the other held a weapon." Nehemiah 4:17. This then is the early Iron Age which Mr Lazare so loudly trumpets to be a period of poverty which cannot fit the reign of Solomon. You are right Mr Lazare. It does not fit the reign of Solomon, but if you get your dates correct it perfectly fits the return from exile.
But how can we justify this revision of dates? Can we fiddle the figures just to make them fit the Bible records? Yes we can, when we consider that the dates for the archaeological strata have been assigned, not on information that comes from the strata themselves but simply by their correlation with the dynasties of Egypt, and it is these dates that some scholars are now challenging.
In the introduction to Peter James book Centuries of Darkness the highly regarded Cambridge Professor, Colin Renfrew wrote,
"The revolutionary suggestion is made here that the existing chronologies for that crucial phase in human history are in error by several centuries, and that, in consequence, history will have to be rewritten . . . I feel that their critical analysis is right, and that a chronological revolution is on its way."
pages XIV, XVI.
In 1995 David Rohl published his book A Test of Time. A series of programmes based on the book was also aired on prime time TV by the BBC in UK. He wrote,
"The new chronology has determined that Rameses II should be dated to the tenth century BC - some three hundred and fifty years later than the date which had been assigned to him in the orthodox chronology."
Page 143.
Let the archaeological history be rewritten then, and it will be found to give remarkable support to the biblical records. David and Solomon did exist and were the triumphant builders of a great nation that dominated Palestine and the surrounding areas.
Lazare also takes a swipe at the record of the Israelite slavery in Egypt and the subsequent Exodus. He wrote, "There was no migration from Mesopotamia, no sojourn in Egypt and no Exodus . . . The slate was blank concerning the nearly five centuries that the Israelites had supposedly lived in Egypt prior to the exodus as well as the forty years that they supposedly spent wandering in the Sinai. Not so much as a skeleton, campsite or cooking pot has turned up."
Wrong, Mr Lazare, though I excuse you on the grounds that you are correctly reflecting the opinions of the main body of archaeologists who still cling to the traditional chronology. But Dr Rudolph Cohen, recently retired Deputy Director of the Israel Antiquities Service has excavated for twenty five years in the Negev (southern Israel) including Kadesh Barnea where the Israelites stayed for 40 days while the twelve spies searched the promised land. He claims there is so much evidence for the presence of a large number of people there at the beginning of the MBI period that he is of the firm conviction that these were the migrating Israelites.
In the July 1983 edition of Biblical Archaeology Review he wrote an article entitled "The Mysterious MBI People, he stated,
"In fact, these MBI people may be the Israelites whose famous journey from Egypt to Canaan is called the Exodus."
In 1993, I and my Australian group worked with Dr Cohen in his excavations at Ein Hatzeva, south of the Dead Sea. During the course of the excavations site supervisor Egal Israel came by to see what we were finding. I asked him whether he agreed with Dr Cohen's views identifying the MBI people with the Israelite migration. Without hesitation he replied, "Of course I do, and so do all the archaeologists down here." I said, "The archaeologists in the north do not accept it." He replied, "They do not know what they are talking about."
Later that year I was talking with Dr Ami Mazar and asked him what he thought of Dr Cohen's views. "They are a lot of rubbish," he snapped. So there is this conflict of opinions in Israel. The majority hold to the traditional chronology but it would not be the first time in history that a minority were right. At least readers should be aware that there are alternative views.
But what about carbon dating? Does not that establish the traditional chronology? I do not know of any archaeologist who has ever altered his dates from the results of carbon 14 testing. Dates are assigned on pottery styles. Samples of organic material may be sent for testing but the results will not influence the conclusions already reached. As David Rohl says in his book,
"All too often a dozen or so radiocarbon dates are included in an archaeological site report merely as scientific window dressing. This attitude is clearly reflected in a regrettably common practice: when a radiocarbon date agrees with the expectation of the excavator it appears in the main text of the site report; if it is slightly discrepant it is relegated to a footnote; if it seriously conflicts it is left out altogether . . . As the senior radiocarbon scientist Professor Ingrid Olsson frankly concluded at the Gothenburg conference: 'Honestly, I would say that I feel that most of the dates from the Bronze Age are dubious. The manner in which they have been made . . . forces me to be critical.'"
page XIX
As for the evidence from Egypt, it is strikingly supportive if you look in the right place. The Biblical date for the Exodus, based on the figures in 1 Kings 6:1, is approximately 1445 BC. By the usual chronology this would be during the powerful and well-recorded eighteenth dynasty which ruled from Luxor rather than Memphis or the Delta where the Israelites were concentrated. There is no trace of Israelite slaves during this dynasty, nor of the disaster that befell Egypt as the result of the ten devastating plagues and the destruction of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea.
However, a revised chronology would locate the Israelite slavery during the late twelfth dynasty and the Exodus at the beginning of the thirteenth dynasty. Dr Rosalie David, Curator of the Manchester Museum wrote a book in 1986 entitled, The Pyramid Builders of Ancient Egypt. Sir Flinders Petrie excavated in the Faiyyum and sent many of his finds back to the Manchester Museum. He excavated a city called Kahun where he found evidence for many Semitic slaves. Because he had the wrong chronology neither he nor Dr David identified them as the Israelite slaves, but their presence there and subsequent disappearance puzzled them..Dr David wrote,
"It is apparent that the Asiatics were present in the town in some numbers, and this may have reflected the situation elsewhere in Egypt . . . Their exact homeland in Syria or Palestine cannot be determined . . . The reason for their presence in Egypt remains unclear."
Page 191.
"It is apparent that the completion of the king's pyramid was not the reason why Kahun's inhabitants eventually deserted the town, abandoning their tools and other possessions in the shops and houses." Page 197. "There are different opinions of how this first period of occupation at Kahun drew to a close . . . The quantity, range and type of articles of everyday use which were left behind in the houses may indeed suggest that the departure was sudden and unpremeditated."
Page 199.
Slaves cannot say to their masters, "OK boss, sorry to leave you, but we are all going tomorrow." Yet this is about what happened at Kahun. The only plausible explanation is that these were the Israelites who packed up and left in a hurry.
Curiously enough, Josephus, the Jewish historian from the first century AD, records a tradition that his ancestors in Egypt built pyramids. This has usually been dismissed with scorn, for by the conventional chronology, all the pyramids were built centuries before the first Israelite arrived in Egypt. If we accept a revised chronology, however, the oppression of the Israelites occured during the Twelfth and Thirteenth Dynasties, when rather impoverished pyramids were still being built. The pyramid at Lahun on which the slaves from Kahun were working was made of millions of bricks made of mud mixed with straw - the very building material the Bible specifies as used by the Israelites in Egypt.
 
unread

[/b]Unread you need to understand what scientific publications are. They are not books written by someone and critiqued by the same author. Let me know when you find any theists presenting their beliefs and proofs in any noteworthy scientific publication.[/b]
 
kenyon

Kathleen Kenyon died in 1978. Was that the best and latest bit of earth shattering news you could find? I am sure that whatever she discovered or proposed has been long studied and verified or debunked. Secondly this only proves my assertion that scientists (from whatever disipline) are constantly trying to outdo each other and in this case it was she that was trying to upset the apple cart. Whether she was successful I don't know nor do I care. What you seem to be unable to grasp is the fact that theists have never been able to get anything published in any scientific paper that would support their beliefs.
 
Reznwerks wrote:
What you seem to be unable to grasp is the fact that theists have never been able to get anything published in any scientific paper that would support their beliefs.

What you seem unable to grasp is that this is due to the prejudice of the leaders of the scientific community. How many Christian articles do you think will be printed in Jewish publications? Here’s a link for you. It’s not Christian at all but it hints at how much is suppressed and misrepresented to bring you the scientific fantasy world you live in.
http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/
 
facts

unred typo said:
Reznwerks wrote:
What you seem to be unable to grasp is the fact that theists have never been able to get anything published in any scientific paper that would support their beliefs.

What you seem unable to grasp is that this is due to the prejudice of the leaders of the scientific community. How many Christian articles do you think will be printed in Jewish publications? Here’s a link for you. It’s not Christian at all but it hints at how much is suppressed and misrepresented to bring you the scientific fantasy world you live in.
http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/
You need to stay on the same page of thought. When you ask about Christian articles in Jewish publications what subject matter are you inferring. If it in regards to archeology I think if there was evidence all of it would be published. It it is theistic and had a strong arguement for presenting I think it too would be published. I guess its just you against the world. You don't believe anyone , you don't believe in evidence, you don't believe what is written, everyone is out to suppress the truth because Satan is everywhere and is trying to spread the truth. Can I ask have you ever spoken to anyone about your beliefs?
 
Reznwerks wrote:
You need to stay on the same page of thought. When you ask about Christian articles in Jewish publications what subject matter are you inferring. If it in regards to archeology I think if there was evidence all of it would be published. It it is theistic and had a strong arguement for presenting I think it too would be published.
It was a correlation. Jews don’t publish articles that are against Judaism and evolutionists don’t publish articles against evolution, no matter what you think.

Reznwerks wrote:
I guess its just you against the world. You don't believe anyone , you don't believe in evidence, you don't believe what is written, everyone is out to suppress the truth because Satan is everywhere and is trying to spread the truth. Can I ask have you ever spoken to anyone about your beliefs?

LOL. Is that our game now? Present the other side as a paranoid and rabidly fanatical psycho with half a brain already in the jar? :angel: Don’t you think you can do better than that?
 
Reznwerks wrote: Quote:
I guess its just you against the world. You don't believe anyone , you don't believe in evidence, you don't believe what is written, everyone is out to suppress the truth because Satan is everywhere and is trying to spread the truth. Can I ask have you ever spoken to anyone about your beliefs?


LOLA. Is that our game now? Present the other side as a paranoid and rabidly fanatical psycho with half a brain already in the jar? Don’ta you think you can do better than that?


******
Sure! Psalm 33:6-9 God spake and it stood fast. It is called faith, but not all have it yet, according to John 3:3 :crying:

Yet: When Adam was created on day one, how old would these ones say that he was if they could have seen him the next day? And all of His (our Lord) other works that have been contaminated by sin??

---John
 
Evolution is not full of holes. An atheist evolutionist can defend anything we throw at them.

The best strategy is to focus on patterns; there is so much order in the universe and in nature which science has no hope of ever explaining. Fibonacci numbers come to mind.

Evolution by natural selection is a fact, not a theory. I accept evolution (change) as a fact because it makes logical sense. That being said, I am a creationist and I believe the earth is less than 15,000 years old.

God created the species while allowing them to change; change is simply a fact of our existence. Did God create hundreds of species of dogs? Highly unlikely. God created one species, and over time, environmental conditions and sexual reproduction led to the diversity in species we see today.
 
Johannes wrote:
Evolution is not full of holes. An atheist evolutionist can defend anything we throw at them.

I agree. As you say, change is going to be seen in nature because God built the adaptation feature into his creation. Evolutionists have misused this as evidence of godless theories. However, when they want to cross man with ape’s ancestors, they find a lack of evidence that only a good fake piece of skull, an erroneous date method or a wild fabrication with the facts will bridge.

Because the opposition to their fallacy has been overwhelmed by their takeover of the field, and the Evolutionists have been especially good at humiliating and drowning out the opposing view, it appears like they are the voice of reason against the whackos who would take us back to an age of ignorance. The approach works quite well because the average person is largely ignorant of both the facts of creation and evolution and the godless evolutionist, like a virus, constantly revises his theories to fit with anomalies that won’t stay buried.

This bit of ridicule hurled out by Reznwerks; “I guess its just you against the world. You don't believe anyone , you don't believe in evidence, you don't believe what is written, everyone is out to suppress the truth because Satan is everywhere and is trying to spread the truth. Can I ask have you ever spoken to anyone about your beliefs?†is a classic example of an evolutionist who has come face to face with the reality that they do not own the facts or the evidence. At this point, only a good insinuation of insanity will do.
 
Johannes said:
Evolution is not full of holes. An atheist evolutionist can defend anything we throw at them.

The best strategy is to focus on patterns; there is so much order in the universe and in nature which science has no hope of ever explaining. Fibonacci numbers come to mind.

Evolution by natural selection is a fact, not a theory. I accept evolution (change) as a fact because it makes logical sense. That being said, I am a creationist and I believe the earth is less than 15,000 years old.

God created the species while allowing them to change; change is simply a fact of our existence. Did God create hundreds of species of dogs? Highly unlikely. God created one species, and over time, environmental conditions and sexual reproduction led to the diversity in species we see today.

Evolutionists can lie right to our faces which is why they don't see that human beings have not produced offspring that are as different from us as we are from apes. History has shown that apes have produced nothing but apes and humans have produced nothing but humans. But this obvious fact is lost on them. So instead, they conveniently say this all happened in pre-recorded time so there are no witnesses and no evidence, which is what they count on. But since recorded time, reality has proven their theories false because life has not evolved in the way they say it did in pre-historic times. So they invent hypostheses just like Sc-fi writers do. They say we "mutated" into humans. So if cells can mutate into superior cells, then why not leave cancer cells alone and let them mutate into healthy cells? :o

But this mutation theory doesn't work either so they have "invented" a missing link. But there is a reason this "link" is still missing. And this missing link with which apes were supposed to have copulated can still only produce characteristics of the link & the ape or they're aying that reproduction doesn't work the way they say it does. So this brings on even more convoluted hypotheses about mutations which have yet not been proven in recorded time.

In addition, they are using the very design they say doesn't exist, to formulate these hypotheses! And all of this, just to say that there is no God. The bible tells us clearly & plainly how we were created, but evolutionists reject it in favor of the human imagination which is endless! Sorry, but the truth can only be found in reality, not in the imagination. ;-)
 
Heidi said:
Evolutionists can lie right to our faces which is why they don't see that human beings have not produced offspring that are as different from us as we are from apes. History has shown that apes have produced nothing but apes and humans have produced nothing but humans. But this obvious fact is lost on them. So instead, they conveniently say this all happened in pre-recorded time so there are no witnesses and no evidence, which is what they count on. But since recorded time, reality has proven their theories false because life has not evolved in the way they say it did in pre-historic times. So they invent hypostheses just like Sc-fi writers do. They say we "mutated" into humans. So if cells can mutate into superior cells, then why not leave cancer cells alone and let them mutate into healthy cells? :o
By evolution, cancer cells have been shown to be a bad mutation because they run out of food and die. Thus we breed resistance to cancers. However, in this day and age, we are living longer so cancer is a bigger issue than disease was.

Human babies have the DNA of their parents and some mutations. This is easily demonstrated. For example, if there were 2 original humans then there are at most 4 possibilities for each space on the DNA. Yet we find some spaces that have 61 different choices. So someone sometime had a baby with a mutation on the DNA that made it something new and it was not from the mother or father.

So things change over time. If the change is good which leads to adulthood and procreation, then the genes pass on. Farm corn is 3 times bigger than wild corn based on this idea. We let the genes for big corn pass on. We select instead of letting the environment select through a fitness criteria.

Given enough time, small changes add up to big changes. There are too many indicators that the Earth is old. The first one is the age of light reacing us. We see things that must have taken light billions of years to cross. Another is solar evolution. We see stars like ors in several stages around our galaxy and know it takes billions of years to get to our stage. Another is radiometric dating. If you ever study it, you can easily appreciate how it all falls into place. It is like finding a key to a lock.

Evolution was held back because they thought the Earth was young. After all, it had a hot core and by thermodynamics, it must be young because it has to be cooling as heat escapes. However, when radioactivity was discovered, the thermodynamic argument failed and people recognized the Earth was old.

Now you can go on with your belief that none of this is true. But you will be just like the people that did not believe the Earth moved.

Quath
 
Back
Top