[_ Old Earth _] evolution or creation?

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Im sure they have nothing in common and are seperate debates. I dont even know why i posted this.

 

[Barbarian]

Evolution is only one of many ways God creates.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Which ever one has the best evidence to support it, and is useful for creating models for human understanding and further learning.

 

[WIP]

human understanding

I think this is key here. We try to explain Godly things using human understanding and wisdom, which is far inferior to God's understanding and wisdom.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I think this is key here. We try to explain Godly things using human understanding and wisdom, which is far inferior to God's understanding and wisdom.

Science's purpose is for human understanding though. That is why I defend the theory of Evolution, I think people forget that its not a dogma, its simply a tool we humans use to understand the universe around us. Its not trying to be God's knowledge or perspective.

 

[Paloma]

God created the universe, world & everything on it.
God created our minds, & gave us the power to understand, think & reason about it.
God created the order or "science" (the way things work)

Man has given names to the various processes and things we see (that God created)
Man has assembled many theories of many things, on how things work, some correct some not. (law of non contraction)

Some men have postulated "evolution" (the molecules to man senario, :God induced and non God induced)
Some men have postulated God made us and used a very strick version of "evolution" ( change within strick limits after their kinds")
Some men think aliens created us.
Some men think multiple Gods created us.
Some men think we are nothing but a cosmic accident.
More?

We all can't be right at the same time saying diametrically opposing things.

When one gets down the very bottom of it, we all are using assumptions of some kind to prove our theories to a degree. Faith rests at the bottom of what everyone believes.

~Paloma

 

[Barbarian]

It comes down to evidence. And the evidence in His creation shows evolution.

 

[Paloma]

It comes down to evidence. And the evidence in His creation shows evolution.

I agree.... In Micro, not macro. Lots and lots of micro-EV which could be easily and honestly be confused with macro.

 

[Edward]

It comes down to evidence. And the evidence in His creation shows evolution.

The evidence... Is, incomplete. One of these days science and spiritualism will get married and become one.

 

[turnorburn]

Im sure they have nothing in common and are seperate debates. I dont even know why i posted this.

That's a good question you know where it leads..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

It comes down to evidence. And the evidence in His creation shows evolution.

It comes down to fraud and lies, its a man made doctrine of humanism communism and atheism..

https://evolutionisntscience.wordpress.com/evolution-frauds/

tob

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I see a balance between God's plan, and our choices. The whole world's choices I mean. With God He is All knowing, past present and future. God is also all powerful, he can cause the world to move or to stand still and create anything in the world or take it away, and can do too many wounded out things to name in this small reply. And He is also full of more love then we can usually comprend, even when we experience it and see it. So I think within the architecture of history, parts of it is what God allows, our choices and interactions as a whole of the world, and in God's love and understanding He gives us our choices to be apart of the plans he has for us. That includes our negitive decisions and our foolish ones. God also with His love, and sometimes His discipline intervenes in our choices. Causes one choice to succeed, and another to fail, networks the world to work for us and line up for us, or work against us. Even gives us the changes we need or beg for. With those changes in mind, God changes us, and allows us to be changed.

And that's my thought on evolution. God changes us, or actively allows us to change. To fit our enviornment, or to be stronger then the enviornment, or to be weaker then the enviornment. Evolution is basically the idea that species change. It gets into other ideas of whether one species is the ancestor of several other more modern species, or whether these changes are smaller but still only in the same species. Deep down though a foundation of the idea of evolution is change within a species.

Within the bible there is change. In Genesis, the animals were to eat the grass and leaves of plants, while the fruit was what was given to mankind. From that point there was no meat in a diet, neither for predators of the wild, nor fast food of the civilized predator. Yet here today, either from Adam and Eve sinning, or from the world being so evil before Noah's time and the flood, there was a change in the enviornment, animals and mankind found survival, hunger, murder, and a food source in other living creatures. Either way for the why, God allowed the world to adapt to the new situtions it was in. Us as well in it. There was a change. But I don't think God is passive with changes. He allows or actively changes the world, and those changes are found today and given the study of evolution.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

A second thought on Evolution is the study of it and it's conclusions. The things that I am aware of with regard to evolution is [1] studying changes in animals (and people), and in plants. [2] studying the similarities and differences between specieces, or even between the same specieces from different regions. And [3] the study of manipulating changes, through breeding or, more recently, through genetic engineering. Without the concept of evolution I'm sure these topics would still be studied and explored by some, maybe even studied differently because it isn't associated with evolution. But since evolution is a concept today, these studies are incorporated into the theories and understandings around evolution theories and understanding.

 

[Paloma]

That was well said NNS. We do see "evolution" as so loosly defined.... Lots of it! Exactly as you said. But in many people's opinion we must further define EV, with "macro" and "micro"....macro being large massive jumps to a completely new and different creatures. "Micro" is small (but still significant and varied) changes that hit walls at times. Where exactly God has laid the "kinds" boundaries is an interestig topic indeed.

Look at hybrids. Lots of wiggle room, but dead ends at a point. ( Interesting to note, man came up with punctuated equilibrium https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium to try and explain the sudden appearance of new creatures in the fossil record.

Wiki: Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species.

https://answersingenesis.org/culture/leading-evolutionist-stephen-jay-gould-dies/

On hybrids...

From wiki:
Interspecific hybrids are bred by mating two species, normally from within the same genus. The offspring display traits and characteristics of both parents. The offspring of an interspecific cross are very often sterile; thus, hybrid sterility prevents the movement of genes from one species to the other, keeping both species distinct.[12] Sterility is often attributed to the different number of chromosomes the two species have, for example donkeys have 62 chromosomes, while horses have 64 chromosomes, and mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes. Mules, hinnies, and other normally sterile interspecific hybrids cannot produce viable gametes, because differences in chromosome structure prevent appropriate pairing and segregation during meiosis, meiosis is disrupted, and viable sperm and eggs are not formed. However, fertility in female mules has been reported with a donkey as the father.[13]

Peace!

~Paloma

 

[Stan1953]

Evolution is only one of many ways God creates.

God only created in Gen 1...after that, the world has grown through PRO creation, which is not the same as Darwin's Evolutionary THEORY.
How and why the DNA does what it does is mostly because of sin in the world, which polluted life. Sin caused and causes mutations.

 

[Barbarian]

God only created in Gen 1...after that, the world has grown through PRO creation, which is not the same as Darwin's Evolutionary THEORY.
How and why the DNA does what it does is mostly because of sin in the world, which polluted life. Sin caused and causes mutations.

It's always a bad idea to add new idea to scripture.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
It comes down to evidence. And the evidence in His creation shows evolution.

On the other hand, creationism...

It comes down to fraud and lies, its a man made doctrine of humanism communism and atheism..

WFTH-I

The problem with generic attacks is that they often backfire.

 

[Barbarian]

Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species.

Given the abundance of transitional forms in higher taxa, and the relative scarcity of such forms between species, punctuated equilibrium is the most sensible conclusion. We know speciation is a fact; even "answers in Genesis" admits that much. And as you know, the abundance of transitionals between higher taxa make it clear that common descent is a fact.

Eldridge and Gould considered these facts along with Mayr's observation that aberrant species tended to be in out-of-the way places, and realized that once a population had evolved and become fit to the environment, stabilizing selection would usually cause a long period of stasis. And that's what we see in the fossil record.

 

[Barbarian]

Interspecific hybrids are bred by mating two species, normally from within the same genus. The offspring display traits and characteristics of both parents. The offspring of an interspecific cross are very often sterile; thus, hybrid sterility prevents the movement of genes from one species to the other, keeping both species distinct.[12] Sterility is often attributed to the different number of chromosomes the two species have, for example donkeys have 62 chromosomes, while horses have 64 chromosomes, and mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes. Mules, hinnies, and other normally sterile interspecific hybrids cannot produce viable gametes, because differences in chromosome structure prevent appropriate pairing and segregation during meiosis, meiosis is disrupted, and viable sperm and eggs are not formed. However, fertility in female mules has been reported with a donkey as the father.

Hybrid speciation is a form of speciation wherein hybridization between two different species leads to a new species, reproductively isolated from the parent species. From the 1940s, reproductive isolation between hybrids and their parents was thought to be particularly difficult to achieve and thus hybrid species were thought to be extremely rare. With DNA analysis becoming more accessible in the 1990s, hybrid speciation has been shown to be a fairly common phenomenon, particularly in plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation

 

[Barbarian]

I agree.... In Micro, not macro. Lots and lots of micro-EV which could be easily and honestly be confused with macro.

Even "Answers in Genesis" now admits the fact of speciation. ICR accepts the evolution of new genera and families, as well. Macroevolution is an observed fact.