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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution Vs Evolution Concerning Textbooks

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Rebecka

Guest
3) There is no gene for memory.
I didn't say "memory" I asked why don't we know?

If monkey one knew, why didn't he somehow tell monkey 2 and monkey 2 somehow tell monkey 3, and so on...but you're saying everything evolved except the WHY. Evolution forgot to find out WHY we are here. It is not even logical that evolution evolved everything we need except for one major thing...WHY? Evolution dissolves "Who, what, when, where, how and why. Evolution ignores imortant data, such as WHY?

Evolution tells us who we are, (humans evolved from monkeys) what we are, (humans evolved from monkeys) when we are, (humans made from monkeys biillions of years ago) how we are (humans made from monkeys), but no WHY we are.

WHY cannot be ignored, VictorHadin. Why is here and it must be addressed..

By blind chance and good luck, we managed to get eyes to see and ears to hear, etc.

I've been reading about some things you say and this is why I don't answer soon, but from everything I have read by evolutionists, they assume and suppose. I deliberately counted the "assumes" and "supposes" in the science books and they are there over and over and over, but never a "I know" and it is because they have no why answer.

Your thinking is influenced by what you read by evolutionists, but the evolutionists cannot be expected to see anything but their views.

Any scientist who says and one did, that "perhaps a baby god made the universe, and that would explain the disorder" is not thinking correctly.

As I said, all our existence depends and is around and in and about and for.. who, what, when,where, how and why and they cannot be ignored.

Evolution says;

Who made us?
Nothing for there is no God.
What made us?
Nothing for there is no God.
Where were we made?
Nowhere and somewhere
When were we made?
Billions of years ago
How were we made?
Blind chance
Why were we made?
No answer.

The Bible answer all these questions.
 
S

saved4life

Guest
Evolution says;
Evolution doesn't take a stand on there being a God or not. It just takes a stand against the Bible and other popular folklore. In fact, you could call the very process of evolution, "God."

The Bible answer all these questions.
Do you just want answers, or the truth?
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
SFL, you said that evolution takes a stand against the Bible.

Nothing stands against the Bible, and evolution isn't standing, it is an unproved theory and nothing more.

Do I want answers or the truth you ask? Jesus Christ said these words and he is the only One who said them; "I am the way, the truth and the life." (NT)
In other words, what he says GOES.[/quote]
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
SFL, you said that evolution takes a stand against the Bible.

Nothing stands against the Bible, as the Bible is what holds everuthing up, and evolution isn't standing anyway, it is an unproved theory and nothing more.

Do I want answers or the truth you ask? Jesus Christ said these words and he is the only One who said them; "I am the way, the truth and the life." (NT)
In other words, what he says GOES.
 
V

victorhadin

Guest
Rebecka said:
I didn't say "memory" I asked why don't we know?

If monkey one knew, why didn't he somehow tell monkey 2 and monkey 2 somehow tell monkey 3, and so on...but you're saying everything evolved except the WHY. Evolution forgot to find out WHY we are here. It is not even logical that evolution evolved everything we need except for one major thing...WHY? Evolution dissolves "Who, what, when, where, how and why. Evolution ignores imortant data, such as WHY?

Evolution tells us who we are, (humans evolved from monkeys) what we are, (humans evolved from monkeys) when we are, (humans made from monkeys biillions of years ago) how we are (humans made from monkeys), but no WHY we are.

WHY cannot be ignored, VictorHadin. Why is here and it must be addressed..
I am honestly unsure of what you mean by 'why' and 'where we came from'. In the context of the evolution of our species, the theory of evolution and related findings certainly do shed light on how we came to be, while archaeology and geology have found indicators of what this planet was like in the past and cosmological studies have thrown light on the realities and distant pasts of the universe we live in.

Firstly, the theory of evolution only looks at the origins of species, so don't try to blanket every scientific discipline which casts doubt on literal biblical interpretation as 'evolution'.

Secondly, I assume that you are referring to one of two things with your 'why':
1) 'The meaning of life' or a similar abstraction; what can be said to be our 'purpose'.
2) How in the first instance did the universe come into being.

Now if that is not the case (as the 'whys' of speciation, planetary formation and so forth have been well covered already) then say so.
Number 1) is just that; an abstraction. The 'meaning' pf existence is rather a vague question since it is philosophically up to interpretation even when we know the exact method of eistence. I can only say that there is no direct answer to this, as reality doesn't have a plan for us tiny little creatures on a backwater dirtball of the universe. If you want a 'meaning' past genetic imperative, make up your own.
For 2), as I have been over in the first page of the 'origin of the universe' thread, it is not 100% certain yet, but invoking the god-of-the-gaps doesn't solve anything.

And this is really the issue: You can wax poetic all you like, but can you really give me an instance of how invoking god can explain a philosophical, scientific or metaphysical conundrum, and not dodge the question by alluding to an unknown method?

Not one religious philosopher has ever managed to do this, but by all means give it a go.

By blind chance and good luck, we managed to get eyes to see and ears to hear, etc.
Well not 100% blind, as natural selection is a distinct non-chance influence, but I see what you mean.

I've been reading about some things you say and this is why I don't answer soon, but from everything I have read by evolutionists, they assume and suppose. I deliberately counted the "assumes" and "supposes" in the science books and they are there over and over and over, but never a "I know" and it is because they have no why answer.
That is because a 'proof' is an impossibility outside the realm of mathematics. Nothing, and I mean nothing can be proven 100%, which is why scientists use that terminology.

Even the jargon is frequently misunderstood. A scientific theory, for example, is not an unbacked hypothesis. The scientific definition for 'theory' is a hypothesis which maps a plausible model for a situation, violating no major physical laws and which closely fits available data on the subject, successfully predicts empirical findings on it's subject matter, can be verified by repeatable observation and experiment and has, furthermore, passed peer review. A 'theory' in the scientific sense is quite a strong thing. Newtonian gravitation is 'just a theory' but all the equations match up to evidence regardless. The same applies for such well-known cornerstones of science as general relativity, which has also beene experimentally verified.
Evolution, likewise, is a 'theory' and not a hypothesis because it is extremely well-backed by available evidence and has predicted numerous things (such as speciation in isolated ecosystems and the existence of DNA) which have been verified later on.

So think before you say 'just a theory'. In strictly scientific terms, a theory is a lot. -And it is on scientific terms, not popular jargon, that evolution is labelled a theory.

Your thinking is influenced by what you read by evolutionists, but the evolutionists cannot be expected to see anything but their views.
As I have repeatedly stated, the scientific method is self-checking. Constant tests and observations are being taken to verify or criticise (for the theories of evolution are not constant and need refining on occasion; a good example would be the punctuated-equilibrium model for mass-extinctions). As a result, the whole lot is constantly being observed, tested and refined; it is not a static article of faith as you assume. If observations were to show that a certain facet of evolutionary theory is incorrect, then they would be taken into account.

Any scientist who says and one did, that "perhaps a baby god made the universe, and that would explain the disorder" is not thinking correctly.
Sounds to me like a scientist who is making a joke, but in any case it is irrelevant. The analytical structure of the scientific method as a whole doesn't care a jot about the ramblings of any individual professional; it is findings and observation that matter more.

Evolution says;

Who made us?
Nothing for there is no God.
Nope. It doesn't say that at all.

What made us?
Nothing for there is no God.
Nope.

Where were we made?
Nowhere and somewhere
That statement is nonsensical.

When were we made?
Billions of years ago
Nope. 'We' weren't around as a species that long ago. Self-replicating proteins/ ligases would have been.

How were we made?
Blind chance
Once natural selection becomes an issue, it isn't even all that blind.

Why were we made?
No answer.
No answer, because the question is out of context. I could explain to you the methods by which self-replicating proteins can form (though that is abiogenesis, not evolution) or by which speciation occurs, but you are clearly not interested in the method, but in a personified 'why' that isn't necessary here.

The Bible answer all these questions.
As S4L said, it answers them incorrectly in a great many cases. Known physical laws prohibit a literal genesis (try shaking off all that gravitational potential energy from the Earth's formation in a few days. It is impossible, even if you surrounded the planet with superconductors at zero Kelvin it couldn't be done. Countless millions of years were necessary for the surface to cool down, and it would still take that. You cannot get around it without ignoring the laws of physics.
The bible also depicts a literal global flood, which is nigh-on bonkers (and if you want me to furnish you with some simple, checkable maths to that effect, then just ask. It only takes a few minutes on a calculator.)
It also alludes to a flat Earth.
It also gives pi's value as 3 (though in the interests of good narrative, I can understand this. Giving it to ten decimals would just bore the reader). ;)
It also has god flouting the first law of thermodynamics regularly.
It also contradicts geological, cosmological and archaeological findings on the age of the Earth and star systems.


To summarise, I expect you to back up your assertion that it provides answers. What answers in particular?
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
am honestly unsure of what you mean by 'why'
Who, what, when, where, how and why are relevant and they are with us because they serve a purpose. They need answers. They have answers. Why are we here? Why? Not "just because.." We are here because God made us. How simple the answer.

Who am I? Rebecka
What am I? a human being
When was I ? Birthdate
Where was I ? In God's heart
How were you born? His love in my parents and his love in their parents and his love in their parents and back to Genesis where it says that God made me in his image and after his likeness in his love.
What made you? An Intelligent Mind Who is my Creator.
I know I didn't make myself. Evolution implies I somehow came together, in other words, I made myself. I know I didn't make myself. I just know it.

How did you get here?

I was born from my parents and understand I can go back to our start in Genesis.
Why are you here?

I understand I am here because God's greatness and power manifested itself in the creation of all things with me being one of the things he made.
Where are you going?
He said in his Book that when I die, my spirit will return to him and my body will return to the dust from where it came. My soul's (mind) destination is determined by if I have the Christ within since he is the Saviour (One who saves) of the world he made and has left instructions on how to prepare myself in his best selling Book called the Bible.
Why are you going?

I understand I must die because of disobedience to his words by those who went before me, but through the Saviour who came, I can live forever somewhere else.
When are you going?

It could be anytime, but I know I won't be here past maybe a hundred years.
How will you get there?
He will come and get me.

These questions have answers. God has answered every question in the human heart.
Science cannot answer any of these.

Evolution says I am nothing but a monkey that looks human and my existence is meaningless and I am headed nowhere with no purpose. Evolution shakes it's head at legimate questions even if those questions are asked in tears.
Evolution says that billions of years ago when no one was there, yet a man who went to school a few years, a sinner; can tell me what happened because some other sinner just like him "invented" a machine that measures time and they know exactly what happened and so claiming they know more than God.

A drunkard who spent his life in shame and sorrow can come to Jesus and recieve a brand new life filled with joy, peace and hope. It is happening everyday.

What has evolution done for anyone? Nothing.

I know two young boys personally. One was taught about Jesus, the other about evolution.
The one said to the other; (I heard it, I was there) "I'm not sure if there is a God."
The other turned to him and with joy all over his little face said with happiness in his voice, "I know there is a God! I felt the Holy Ghost! I know there is a God. I know it!"

It was truly one of the most wonderful things I was ever priveleged to witness.
And that is why God lets us feel him to convince us he is real.

That is what converted me. I felt God.
 
V

victorhadin

Guest
These questions have answers. God has answered every question in the human heart.
Science cannot answer any of these.
But again you neglect to centre on the critical point here: How do you know these answers are truthful?

You can believe in a literal genesis all you like, but since the evidence serves to contradict it, then all you are doing is sticking your fingers in your ears.

Why do you think that those answers are correct? I don't expect circular reasoning here.

Evolution says I am nothing but a monkey that looks human and my existence is meaningless and I am headed nowhere with no purpose. Evolution shakes it's head at legimate questions even if those questions are asked in tears.
Evolution says that billions of years ago when no one was there, yet a man who went to school a few years, a sinner; can tell me what happened because some other sinner just like him "invented" a machine that measures time and they know exactly what happened and so claiming they know more than God.
You really haven't the faintest clue, do you?

No 'machine' was invented to measure time and the age of the earth, Rebecka. The evidence pointing to an old Earth is in multiple different directions and independantly testable: The fact that we can see distant galaxies, millions of light years away, the fact that numerous different forms of radiometric dating, performed on rock and ore deposits the world over point to it, the fact that sedimentary rock exists and is common, etc etc etc.

And you dismiss this by saying that the people (not one man, Rebecka; thousands of professionals testing independantly) that come up with these results are 'sinners' and so can't be trusted?

Have you no better refutation?

Do you live in laa-laa land, Rebecka?

What has evolution done for anyone? Nothing.
Oh, you mean except for pointing us to our origins as a species, indicating how species interact and can die out and providing a base of empirical data which has been built on by biologists, archaeologists, geologists to find out more?

Exactly what price do you put on finding the truth of the matter, Rebecka? Blind faith isn't about to find it, but the growth of scientific knowledge and the testing of the world around us might.

If you honestly believe literal biblical creation and the word of god to be true, why don't you have confidence that the vast, cynical, educated machinery of the scientific process will show it to be?

I know two young boys personally. One was taught about Jesus, the other about evolution.
The one said to the other; (I heard it, I was there) "I'm not sure if there is a God."
The other turned to him and with joy all over his little face said with happiness in his voice, "I know there is a God! I felt the Holy Ghost! I know there is a God. I know it!"
I've seen people with joy all over their faces from a hit of cocaine. It doesn't convince me to try it.




Are you going to attempt to answer my challenge, Rebecka, of how invoking a god can explain matters of physics, metaphysics, psychology etc, then?

Or are you going to wax lyrical once more?
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
Are you going to attempt to answer my challenge, Rebecka, of how invoking a god can explain matters of physics, metaphysics, psychology etc, then?
You haven't presented any challenges. All you present are theories. To get you to understand would require a long drawn out study beginning at the beginning of RECORDED HISTORY and since you don't believe recorded history, but only what other evolutionists tell you, it will never work.

VictorHadin, evolution is a religion, a theory.
Nothing personal, but there are no fossils and no links and you believe in a fairytale, and yet tell me I do.

Evolution's religious motto is;
Faith is the absence of fossils hoped for; the evidence of links not seen"

and I wish you would take on my brother in Christ Kent Hovind who offers you $100,000.00, but you won't because he is too intelligent to be deceived by the atheists and evolutionists.


The sane world ruling majority knows as I do, that there is a God.

The Bible tells about certain people who are appointed to be and believe what you do, so there you have it and it applies to SFL, your sidekick.

Well, have a good night
 
S

saved4life

Guest
The sane world ruling majority knows as I do, that there is a God.
Yep, sane people like Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the 19 hi-jackers of 9/11. People who believe in and act on behalf of God are very sane indeed.
 
S

saved4life

Guest
The Bible tells about certain people who are appointed to be and believe what you do, so there you have it and it applies to SFL, your sidekick.
I'm "appointed" to believe what I do? :lol:

I'm a sidekick? :lol:
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
Hi Victor and SFL thanks for your posts...:Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color :Fade-color this is for VICTOR :sad and this is for SFL :roll:
When I'm posting to Victorhadin, I stand on my chair before my screen with smoke coming out of my ears pounding on the keyboards... :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
:wink:
Quote:
Do you live in laa-laa land, Rebecka? Victor innocently inquired...


and his sidekick SFL was kind enough to answer the question....Her and Heidi share a duplex there. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
V

victorhadin

Guest
Rebecka said:
You haven't presented any challenges. All you present are theories. To get you to understand would require a long drawn out study beginning at the beginning of RECORDED HISTORY and since you don't believe recorded history, but only what other evolutionists tell you, it will never work.
I don't take the bible word for word. Recorded history is, however, a different matter (and the bible even gets some of it right). Try me.

VictorHadin, evolution is a religion, a theory.
Nothing personal, but there are no fossils and no links and you believe in a fairytale, and yet tell me I do.
I'm not about to repeat myself over this, so please refer to the examples I showed you earlier in this thread and the other one I referenced. Dispute them directly if you disagree.

Evolution's religious motto is;
Faith is the absence of fossils hoped for; the evidence of links not seen"

and I wish you would take on my brother in Christ Kent Hovind who offers you $100,000.00, but you won't because he is too intelligent to be deceived by the atheists and evolutionists.
Some of his arguments are outright preposterous from a scientific viewpoint, Rebecka. If you wish I will go through them and comment on the dodgier ones for you. Shall I do that for you?

Please cease with this red herring. We've been over this.


The sane world ruling majority knows as I do, that there is a God.
We've been over this too. The majority disagree with your religion in any case.

The Bible tells about certain people who are appointed to be and believe what you do, so there you have it and it applies to SFL, your sidekick.

Well, have a good night
And a good night to you too. :angel:

When I'm posting to Victorhadin, I stand on my chair before my screen with smoke coming out of my ears pounding on the keyboards... :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin
Yeah; I do that sometimes. You should have heard me today arguing politics with a decidedly leftist friend of mine. :biggrin
 

Barbarian

Member
Joined
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Messages
27,357
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Christian
Yes
No transitional fossils? Here's a skeleton found in the rocks. Obviously, it's a vertebrate. But which class of vertebrate (fish, amphibian, reptile, bird, mammal)? And tell us why.



How about this one?



Which class for this one. And why?

Still think that there aren't transitionals?
 
V

victorhadin

Guest
Thankyou Barbarian. Pictures clearly say what words cannot.
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
I don't take the bible word for word. Recorded history is, however, a different matter (and the bible even gets some of it right). Try me.
Now you're making real progress lol.. and recorded history is what we can depend on, and the Bible is ancient history FYI, but when people go on about trillions of years ago this happened, or that, I roll my eyes because we must have proof because anyone can guess as we well know. I want proof and documents provide that and so does pottery and papyrus and all that is found to help us understand the people who lived before us and why we are here and where are we going


In the early Bronze Age we barely began to have written documents, but, before that, there is no proof of anything.
We can learn of ancient people, what they believed, how they survived and one thing that was always there was their belief in some gods or deitites.

If we follow recorded history closely, we see something clearly, a belief in a deity or deities by ancients and there is reason behind it and if we look, we find it.

it was only about 6,ooo years ago, God revealed himself to a man in Mesopotamia named Abram and told him he is God, that he made us and this is what is happening

Some argue that God was mean in the OT, but he was dealing with tribes and he revealed himself that way to them, then on his way to here he revealed more and each generation learned more about him as he moved it seems ahead and more ahead, in other words, it almost seemed as if God himself is learning as he goes, but he wasn't, he is all knowing, and wise to combine divinity with clay.

God gave us his Word, the Bible, but we had to do all the work to get it together. It literally took us from 4,000 B.C. to gather it together and then barely in the 14th century we invent the printer.

Like the farmer who grew a beautiful crop and the preacher went out to see it and after viewing all the crops, exclaimed; "Praise the Lord! Just look what the Lord has done!" and the farmer said; "You should have seen this place when just God had it! I did all this work. It was weeds when he gave it to me"

You might say, we invented him, but recorded history says he invented us.
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
Still think that there aren't transitionals
My stand is we didn't come from monkeys and if there are transitional fossills, they need to be presented to Kent Hovind.

I wrote this poem..."Hey little monkey swinging in the tree:
I'm not related to you; you're not related to me."
O! God in heaven fair and true:
I can look like Christ Who looks like You."
God bless you, Barbarian and thanks for those great pics :biggrin
 

Barbarian

Member
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Messages
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My stand is we didn't come from monkeys
Well, good. That's a start. You do know that evolutionary theory doesn't say we evolved from monkeys, don't you.

and if there are transitional fossills, they need to be presented to Kent Hovind.
Hovind is a joke, even to honest creationists. He's irrelevant to anyone who's serious about finding the truth. Generally, when he gets challenged to think, he retreats into mumbo jumbo or changes the subject.

But you aren't unique. When we present transitionals, no one can classify them. I chose them, of course, because they lived in times when there was no distinction between fish and tetrapods or between mammals and reptiles.

I wrote this poem..."Hey little monkey swinging in the tree:
I'm not related to you; you're not related to me."
O! God in heaven fair and true:
I can look like Christ Who looks like You."
God bless you, Barbarian and thanks for those great pics
How about that?
 
R

Rebecka

Guest
Hovind is a joke, even to honest creationists
Not to offend, but it seems Hovind thinks evolution is a joke.
My question would be why doesn't evolution offer $100,000.00 to creationists to prove them wrong?
That would be interesting
 
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