[_ Old Earth _] Evolution

[Heidi]

May I also remind you that many people with high I.Q's have produced offspring with low I.Q's and many animals that are healthy breed offspring that are deformed. So your explanation of the survival of the fittest is nonsense & hasn't been proven at all.

 

[jwu]

Unfortunately, yes. As I pointed out, your posts doesn't make any sense. You have so many leaps to conclusions that contradict today's reality with zero proof that everything happened the way you say it did! Your idea of proof is seeing a human and an ape and saying we came from the ape! Sorry but that is no proof at all.

Ok, then please point out where exactly these leaps are, so i can try to fill them.

You also said that evolution takes a long time to which I responded that it is a very convenient explanation. It's again the same explanation that I can use to say that aliens depostied offspring and we will prove that by waiting millions of years from now until they come back!

Evolution takes many generations, in case of beings with long generations it therefore takes a longer time. Nonetheless evolution has been directly observed in humans. And also in more detail in case of more short lived species.

Evolution actually contradicts the way humans & apes have bred since recorded history, my friend. So in order to prove your theory, you're going to have to come up with some strong evidentiary proof, not in theory, but in today's reality, otherwise it's as speculative as my saying we came from aliens. And that is a fact.

It contradicts the "way we breed" only if it stated that an ape gave birth to a human. Do you believe that this is what the theory of evolution states?

May I also remind you that many people with high I.Q's have produced offspring with low I.Q's and many animals that are healthy breed offspring that are deformed. So your explanation of the survival of the fittest is nonsense & hasn't been proven at all.

I don't understand what this has to do witih the point. The IQ isn't completely genetic. And even if it was, then the fact that often children have a higher IQ than the parents would disprove your point.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Heidi what you're saying is that we look at person A and A's cousin B and decide that B must be A's grandmother. This SHOWS you don't understand evolution, because what an evolutionary biologist would conclude is that B and A are related and there is at least one person common to their lineages.
This also shows that you are unwilling to argue against anything but the strawman version of evolution that You yourself have invented. So you can just turn off your computer and keep telling yourself that humans didn't come from bananas and stop bothering us.

 

[jgarden_47]

Whether the world was created in 6 days, 6 million years or 6 billion years is largely irrelevant. The evolution or the creationist theories of life are of little importance. If one believes in a God inspired universe, the timelines and mechanics are academic. The real question is not how we got here, but what is God's purpose of our existance.

 

[Barbarian]

And we have a winner!

 

[Heidi]

Unfortunately, yes. As I pointed out, your posts doesn't make any sense. You have so many leaps to conclusions that contradict today's reality with zero proof that everything happened the way you say it did! Your idea of proof is seeing a human and an ape and saying we came from the ape! Sorry but that is no proof at all.

Ok, then please point out where exactly these leaps are, so i can try to fill them.

[quote:54908]You also said that evolution takes a long time to which I responded that it is a very convenient explanation. It's again the same explanation that I can use to say that aliens depostied offspring and we will prove that by waiting millions of years from now until they come back!

Evolution takes many generations, in case of beings with long generations it therefore takes a longer time. Nonetheless evolution has been directly observed in humans. And also in more detail in case of more short lived species.

Evolution actually contradicts the way humans & apes have bred since recorded history, my friend. So in order to prove your theory, you're going to have to come up with some strong evidentiary proof, not in theory, but in today's reality, otherwise it's as speculative as my saying we came from aliens. And that is a fact.

It contradicts the "way we breed" only if it stated that an ape gave birth to a human. Do you believe that this is what the theory of evolution states?

May I also remind you that many people with high I.Q's have produced offspring with low I.Q's and many animals that are healthy breed offspring that are deformed. So your explanation of the survival of the fittest is nonsense & hasn't been proven at all.

I don't understand what this has to do witih the point. The IQ isn't completely genetic. And even if it was, then the fact that often children have a higher IQ than the parents would disprove your point.[/quote:54908]

Evolution has been directly observed in humans? What have humans evolved into? :o Even if you do think that some humans are better than others (as if anyone is qualified to judge that), we are still humans. We have not bred offspring that are as different from us as we are from the apes. We are still only breeding humans. And apes are still only breeding apes.

Of course some children have higher I.Q's than their parents which actually confirms my point that humans breed healthy and unhealthy offspring which defeats the evolution theory of the survival of the fittest. Even the notion that you think we are more fit today (which is preposterous, by the way), we are still breeding defective offspring. This again disproves evolution.

There are so many holes in the theory of evolution, it looks like a sieve. But evolutionists would prefer to hold on to these holes instead of admit there is a God whose description of creation in the bible has been verified all through history. Again, the truth holds no contradictions. Evolution does.

I would also like to know something; do evolutionists know inside that their theory contradicts reality but just can't admit they're wrong, or do they not know it?

 

[reznwerks]

humans

[

Evolution has been directly observed in humans? What have humans evolved into? :o
Humans have not evolved into anything. Humans have evolved into what they are today.

Even if you do think that some humans are better than others (as if anyone is qualified to judge that), we are still humans. We have not bred offspring that are as different from us as we are from the apes. We are still only breeding humans. And apes are still only breeding apes.

Both PRIMATES are still evolving. You still don't understand evolution.

Of course some children have higher I.Q's than their parents which actually confirms my point that humans breed healthy and unhealthy offspring which defeats the evolution theory of the survival of the fittest.
I don't know what that statement supposedly proves. Some children have lower I.Q's than there smarter parents. What is the point? The fact that no correlation between the two can be consistantly measured proves nothing. The survival of the fittest is a fact in nature and has been proved time and time again and those that did not adapt or did not adapt fast enough died out.

Even the notion that you think we are more fit today (which is preposterous, by the way), we are still breeding defective offspring. This again disproves evolution.
Fit is a definition of mans observation. Certainly I think man is more fit intellectually than those of the past. You correctly observe that man may not be the phyical beast that was his past and he body has evolved that way. You have actually proved what you are argueing against.As to defective offspring no creature on the planet is free from defects. Again I don't know what you are trying to prove by this statement either. If perfection is a claim of God then we have no evidence of perfection in mans history. Now you can claim that man sinned and imperfection is the reward from God but what excuse can you use when animals are defective, what sin did they do?



There are so many holes in the theory of evolution, it looks like a sieve. But evolutionists would prefer to hold on to these holes instead of admit there is a God whose description of creation in the bible has been verified all through history. Again, the truth holds no contradictions. Evolution does.
Why should evolutionists abandon what they can see , observe and test for something that has no evidence whatsoever? History does not confirm any living God. If you want to accept the God of the bible then be fair and accept the God of every other civilization as all have the same amount of evidence. You see you and I are a lot alike. You don't believe in all those other Gods (nor do I) and I believe in just one less than you.

I would also like to know something; do evolutionists know inside that their theory contradicts reality but just can't admit they're wrong, or do they not know it?
You might have been told this but don't you really think evolutionists have been challenged by this many many many times before?Don't you think that they have gone back to the evidence to confirm or deny what was there? Evolutionits don't spend all their time thinking of all the ways they can decieve themselves. You should stop repeating what you are being told and just think for yourself. Does any of what you said really make sense in the real world? In answering your question evolutionists KNOW the theory DOES NOT contradict reality. Why do you think evolution gained such a foot hold in the first place? Before evolutionary theory there was the bible. Obviously the bible has lost out to what can be seen and tested. You do the math.

 

[Heidi]

And who has observed human beings coming from apes? :o And if we're still evolving, as evolutionists claim, why haven't we evolved into a species as different from us as we are from apes? To say that we will some day is not evidence. It's as speculative as saying that the aliens from which we came will come back some day and prove they are our ancestors.

And what are primates evolving into? All one has to do is go to the zoo to see what tye're breeding! ;-)

And how has the survival of the fittest been proved if we're still producing defective offspring? In addition, how are we any better today than we were umpteen years ago? There is more disease, famine, STD's, wars, & we are closer to extinguishing ourselves than ever before!! So the scientists who say we are in a state of decay have proven their point much more effectively than evolutionists.

Scientists do abandon what they can see! They can see that humans breed humans & apes breed apes but they say that didn't happen before there were any witnesses to disprove it. Sorry, but what we can see is the complete opposite of what evolutionists claim. ;-)

And how does the theory that we came out of the womb of an animal conform to present reality? :o

Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on. Your beliefs come from the imagination, not reality, my friend.

 

[reznwerks]

huh

And who has observed human beings coming from apes? :o
First of all humans did not come from apes. Are you still in school? What part of that don't you understand? Man is a specied unto himself and has evolved just like other animals have evolved. Horses used to have one hoof , elephants used to be a lot bigger, etc etc. Lastly no one ever claimed to witness humans coming from apes.

And if we're still evolving, as evolutionists claim, why haven't we evolved into a species as different from us as we are from apes?
Why should we? Do you see a need for evolution in mans make up that God overlooked? HMMMM! Why should man evolve into something so different that what he is today?

To say that we will some day is not evidence.
No one ever said that we will evolve into something else or what changes will become evident in the future. It probably won't happen unless there is a need. A good example is the crocodile. It has remained unchanged for thousands and perhaps millions of years. The reason being is that its environment has not forced it too. It has little competition and the environment in which it finds itself has not changed.At the other extreme are bacteria and flu virus which shows hands down that evolution is a fact of life as they change every couple of months in reaction to the different vacines that are developed. You have to have your head in the sand not to admit that one.

It's as speculative as saying that the aliens from which we came will come back some day and prove they are our ancestors.
Actually this is a different topic but there is far more evidence to this theory and evidence backing it up than the one you keep relying on and that is the bible.

And what are primates evolving into? All one has to do is go to the zoo to see what tye're breeding! ;-)
WHy should they be evolving into anything? Why should they be doing it so fast as we should have to observe it. WHere do you get your ideas?

And how has the survival of the fittest been proved if we're still producing defective offspring?
Since when was it written that their was a cut off line that said OK we are now perfect? Who said that the absense of defects was the goal and purpose of evolution? As we change other factors change as well. As we become immune to some diseases those diseases change as well as they need to survive too. You are also discounting the other things in nature may cause defects. Everything "natural" is not necessarily safe and has incorrectly been used by just about everyone who has something to sell.

In addition, how are we any better today than we were umpteen years ago? There is more disease, famine, STD's, wars, & we are closer to extinguishing ourselves than ever before!!
No we are not. There is not more disease, there is not more STD's and most of the wars on the planet are religious based. I have posted this info before. We were closer to extinguishing ourselves about 40 years ago than we are today.

So the scientists who say we are in a state of decay have proven their point much more effectively than evolutionists.
WHo says we are in a state of decay? Evolutionists have no opinion on the matter as they only observe what was. You really need to enlarge your reading material.

Scientists do abandon what they can see! They can see that humans breed humans & apes breed apes but they say that didn't happen before there were any witnesses to disprove it.
Again humans breed humans and apes breed apes. THere is no big mystery. The only mystery is why is it so hard for you to grasp that man is an animal with very similar characteristics to apes and gorillas but is not one of them. Really the only thing that separates man from other animals is his intelligence. This could be the one overiding evidence of evolution that man has as compared to the other animals. Man cannot run faster , than other predators, he does not have claws, or sharp teeth, is not stronger, etc etc etc. It was intelligence that separated man and the need to bond with others that made survival possible. Yes and monkeys and apes do the same thing.

Sorry, but what we can see is the complete opposite of what evolutionists claim. ;-)
Only in your imagination and your insistance on covering your ears.

And how does the theory that we came out of the womb of an animal conform to present reality? :o
The fact that I am here is proof of reality. My mother was an animal and your mother was an animal. We both were in the womb of an animal. I don't know where you were going on that statement.

Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on. Your beliefs come from the imagination, not reality, my friend.
Sorry but it's you that has no leg to stand on. You make claims but have no evidence to back it. Remember when you complain about the lack of evidence for evolution the bible has none at all. First of all you have to prove a God exists which has not been done then if you do you have to prove that this God did what you accuse him of doing. You have a long way to go other than saying something did this and that while providing no evidence.

 

[jwu]

How can you be a Christian and not believe that God created man and animals the way the bible said he did? The bible even uses the word "we" when talking about who created the world. Who do you think the "we" is? The tooth fairy? Jesus himself says he created the world along with his Father. How can you be a Chrisian and not believe Christ? Do you not believe Romans 1:18-31? Do you not believe Genesis? Where does the bible say we came from apes?

You give off mixed messages which are very contradictory. The bible claims that sin will increase, not decrease, So how is anyone evolving?

The bible said the goal for Christians is eternal life. Do you again not believe the bible?

Sorry, but since your words are contradictory, they are not credible.

I believe that Jesus lived and died for our sins, and i try to follow His teachings. That makes me a Christian. Believing that the Bible is 100% accurate and infallible isn't required.

Evolution has been directly observed in humans? What have humans evolved into?

Not all evolution is speciation. Beneficial mutations such as immunity to diseases are evolution too.

But since evolutionists simply can't admit there's a God, they have to find some way to prove that God did not create man.

I am an evolutionist who believes in God. Please stop bearing false witness about what i say and admit!

 

[Heidi]

How can you be a Christian and not believe that God created man and animals the way the bible said he did? The bible even uses the word "we" when talking about who created the world. Who do you think the "we" is? The tooth fairy? Jesus himself says he created the world along with his Father. How can you be a Chrisian and not believe Christ? Do you not believe Romans 1:18-31? Do you not believe Genesis? Where does the bible say we came from apes?

You give off mixed messages which are very contradictory. The bible claims that sin will increase, not decrease, So how is anyone evolving?

The bible said the goal for Christians is eternal life. Do you again not believe the bible?

Sorry, but since your words are contradictory, they are not credible.

I believe that Jesus lived and died for our sins, and i try to follow His teachings. That makes me a Christian. Believing that the Bible is 100% accurate and infallible isn't required.

[quote:c6e40]Evolution has been directly observed in humans? What have humans evolved into?

Not all evolution is speciation. Beneficial mutations such as immunity to diseases are evolution too.

But since evolutionists simply can't admit there's a God, they have to find some way to prove that God did not create man.

I am an evolutionist who believes in God. Please stop bearing false witness about what i say and admit![/quote:c6e40]

So if only some of the parts in the bible are accurate & others are not, how do you know which parts are true & which parts are false? Just a guess? :o If so, then how do you know Jesus lived & died for your sins? Another guess? Sorry, but I wouldn't want to gamble my soul on a guess. That is not true faith. Jesus said, "Now this is etrnal life; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent." True faith is the knowledge that something is true, not just hoping something is true.

Jesus also said that he was with God in the beginning. the "we" mentioned in Genesis when referring to who created the world was God and Christ. Therefore, if you believe christ, you would believe him when he said his chosen were with him in the beginning. Jesus believed every word of scripture. He also says he is the way, the truth, and the life. He also said; "He who is not with me is against me." you cannot be both. You cannot both say that you believe him & don't believe him at the same time. it's one or the other.

Immunity to disease? :o Sorry but bacteria are now becoming resistant to the very medicines once invented to cure them. Life is bigger than us, Jwu. Every cell was programmed to survive and that includes bacterial cells as well. Every cell will develop antibodies to eventually resist any outside stimuli that threatens to kill it. And that is why medications only work for a while. But cells were not programmed to mutate! A mutation is by definition, an accident, not an evolvement.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Sorry but bacteria are now becoming resistant to the very medicines once invented to cure them.

So you are argueing that these bacteria are more superior than their ancestors? I thought that was impossible.

Where does this new information for them to become superior come from? If they are becoming resistant to new medicines, doesn't this require new information? Where does the bacteria get this information?

Are you actually argueing here that they are (gasp) evolving into "better" bacteria?

Odd. You are using proof of evolution to debase the theory of evolution.

 

[jwu]

So if only some of the parts in the bible are accurate & others are not, how do you know which parts are true & which parts are false? Just a guess? If so, then how do you know Jesus lived & died for your sins? Another guess? Sorry, but I wouldn't want to gamble my soul on a guess. That is not true faith. Jesus said, "Now this is etrnal life; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent." True faith is the knowledge that something is true, not just hoping something is true.

You don't know that Jesus died for our sins anymore than i do. We both just have faith in that. I just happen not to have faith in certain other interpretations of parts of the Bible, those which are basically falsified.

Jesus believed every word of scripture.

But what today is considered to be scripture and what is not was decided not before 300AD!

He also says he is the way, the truth, and the life. He also said; "He who is not with me is against me." you cannot be both. You cannot both say that you believe him & don't believe him at the same time. it's one or the other.

Or Jesus didn't actually say that or mean it that way, and the reports of him saying/meaning it are incorrect or misinterpreted.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry but bacteria are now becoming resistant to the very medicines once invented to cure them.

So you are argueing that these bacteria are more superior than their ancestors? I thought that was impossible.

Where does this new information for them to become superior come from? If they are becoming resistant to new medicines, doesn't this require new information? Where does the bacteria get this information?

Are you actually argueing here that they are (gasp) evolving into "better" bacteria?

Odd. You are using proof of evolution to debase the theory of evolution.

What? Do you not realize that everything including our ancestors are composed of cells? :o The cell is the essence of life itself! My point was that what is in the cell is what it is programmed to do. This is elementary! A person cannot manifest humans traits if his genes are the genes of a dog. If you don't understand these things then it's absurd to even debate with you.

The information that makes men superior to animals came from God. We have always ruled over the animals in recorded history. But evolutionists turn that completely around and say that we came from animals, even though reality shows the complete opposite!

What you fail to understand is that cells do what they were designed to do. A bacterial cell does not turn into a healthy cell. It always remains a bacterial cell or it dies. Humans always remain human until they die. Apes always remain apes until they die. How in the world is this evolution? :o This is such an elementary principle yet evolutionists don't have the capacity to understand it.

 

[Barbarian]

But evolutionists turn that completely around and say that we came from animals, even though reality shows the complete opposite!

:o

 

[Heidi]

When was the last time anyone ever saw a homonid come out of an ape? :o Only in the fantasies of men. ;-)