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Faith VS. Doctrine

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With this mindset in place, and understanding that the Bible is divinely inspired


The mindset described makes sense, but the bolded part goes against what you said about bringing in one's preconceptions. Determining what to believe and what to reject is a difficult task. We cannot with honest hearts predetermine that what's written in the scriptures is actually God-breathed just because it says so. It must stand the test of scrutiny before we so readily attribute it to the Living God.
 
With this mindset in place, and understanding that the Bible is divinely inspired

We cannot with honest hearts predetermine that what's written in the scriptures is actually God-breathed just because it says so. It must stand the test of scrutiny before we so readily attribute it to the Living God.

It must stand the test of scrutiny??? Wha??? No sir, it doesn't. Believing and confessing is a one time deal. When God reveals the Holy Spirit to you, he reveals it plainly. Born Again Christians already know the Bible is God-breathed because God himself has revealed himself to them through their faith in Jesus Christ.
 
Getting hung up on the doctrine is missing the point of it and is legalism.
It is not necessarily legalism. It can become legalistic but the NT affirms throughout that we are to hold to correct doctrine. This is even seen in the very fact that the writers of the NT books are teaching certain things which are necessary for salvation (all passages from the ESV):

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

1Co 15:11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

If the doctrine of the resurrection is false, there is no salvation. Correct belief about who Jesus is and what he did are necessary for salvation.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Here "the faith" is referring to the collection of doctrines of Christianity, which would include the "gospel," itself a certain set of Christian doctrines.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

1Ti 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.

1Ti 6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Tit 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Correct doctrine is necessary and we simply cannot pit that against faith as though they are opposed to one another.

Edward said:
We really do not need to look to men for interpretation, we ask the Holy Spirit. I think it must be impatience that makes us ask men, and perhaps a desire to help those younger in faith to understand things. But many times people pride steps in and those without the Love of God and the truth within them will begin bickering, wanting to show off and seeking respect I suppose. Those that are not even worshipping the real Jesus as you said. Best to leave these types alone and pray to God for illumination through His Holy Spirit and to not be deceived.
But this ignores the clear teaching of Scripture that some are teachers. It also ignores the fact that the Bible is a collection of books written by people inspired by God, for people. This presumes that we can read it and understand. The problem is that it is written in ancient languages that the vast majority of us don't understand, so it is up to those who do to make clearer for us what is actually written. Not to mention that when one reads the Bible in their own language, they are reading a translation, often incorporating the interpretations, understandings and biases of the translators.

So, yes, while we do need the Holy Spirit, we can also put in our own effort and hard work to learn the historical contexts, the language, the idioms, etc., and also research and talk to others about what they have found. Not only can we do so but I would argue that God expects it of us.
 
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When God reveals the Holy Spirit to you, he reveals it plainly.


What do you base this OPINION on?

Born Again Christians already know the Bible is God-breathed because God himself has revealed himself to them through their faith in Jesus Christ.

I can speak from experience against this faulty conclusion. As a person that was among the ranks of born again christians himself for decades I can honestly say that I fully believed the Bible was God's inspired Word, but come to find out my belief/faith/trust did not make it so.
 
When God reveals the Holy Spirit to you, he reveals it plainly.


What do you base this OPINION on?

On the love, mercy and peace I have felt through the Holy Spirit. It's a physical and mental experience.

Born Again Christians already know the Bible is God-breathed because God himself has revealed himself to them through their faith in Jesus Christ.

I can speak from experience against this faulty conclusion. As a person that was among the ranks of born again christians himself for decades I can honestly say that I fully believed the Bible was God's inspired Word, but come to find out my belief/faith/trust did not make it so.

Then you weren't truly saved.
 
here is the test that Paul would give to all who claim to be Christians; KNOW YE NOT THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS WITHIN YOU?
 
If the premise of the thread is correct there is no need for the bible or to spend any time reading or studying it.....just have "faith" and wing it.
 
If the premise of the thread is correct there is no need for the bible or to spend any time reading or studying it.....just have "faith" and wing it.

Incorrect, some people have come to faith without knowledge of the Bible. Coming to faith is a one time thing. Do you understand what that means. Coming to faith vs. Living in faith for the rest of your life is two different things.
 
I remember Corrie tenBoom talking about trying to witness to the German people after the holocost. She said that they knew all a bout Jesus and could quote scripture even. But they were hardened and unloving. They had never had a relationship with Him. So she held up a box of chocolates and told them that it did little good to know all the ingredients and how to make them if they had never tasted the chocolates.
"Taste and see that the Lord is Good". We need to receive Him into our lives and have an ongoing relationship with Him, or all our superficial knowledge about Him is in vain. He will lead us into all truth by His Spirit. Ususally, after teaching us some basics, He seems to be more concerned with changing us into His likeness than in all the rest of the stuff we tend to argue over. In fact, the more Christ like we become, the less we seem to argue over such things.
 
I remember Corrie tenBoom talking about trying to witness to the German people after the holocost. She said that they knew all a bout Jesus and could quote scripture even. But they were hardened and unloving. They had never had a relationship with Him. So she held up a box of chocolates and told them that it did little good to know all the ingredients and how to make them if they had never tasted the chocolates.
"Taste and see that the Lord is Good". We need to receive Him into our lives and have an ongoing relationship with Him, or all our superficial knowledge about Him is in vain. He will lead us into all truth by His Spirit. Ususally, after teaching us some basics, He seems to be more concerned with changing us into His likeness than in all the rest of the stuff we tend to argue over. In fact, the more Christ like we become, the less we seem to argue over such things.

Good point, [MENTION=90443]Carolyn[/MENTION]!

Biblical doctrine is vitally important, but love needs to be there, otherwise it makes no sense.

(Good to see you here again; missed you lately!)

Blessings.
 
If the premise of the thread is correct there is no need for the bible or to spend any time reading or studying it.....just have "faith" and wing it.

Incorrect, some people have come to faith without knowledge of the Bible. Coming to faith is a one time thing. Do you understand what that means. Coming to faith vs. Living in faith for the rest of your life is two different things.

No.not incorrect,it is possible for someone to come to faith as you put it without being a bible scholar but if they have no essential doctrine to believe in then what value will their faith be,many today think the bible was written only for those few Christians who like to read and the rest can skate....if you have any scripture to support that quote it...we in the west have no excuse for willfull ignorance of God's word
 
When I think of childlike faith I think of faith similar to what a child, more accurately an infant child, has for a parent. The infant depends upon and trusts completely that the parent will provide everything he/she needs. Likewise, we too can have this kind of faith in God. Too often we need to "signs" to validate our faith and that deviates from childlike faith.
 
it is possible for someone to come to faith as you put it without being a bible scholar but if they have no essential doctrine to believe in then what value will their faith be,many today think the bible was written only for those few Christians who like to read and the rest can skate.

Once you have come to faith, the Holy Spirit will guide you into the Word. The essential doctrine is the Holy Spirit living inside of you. No, the rest do not skate. The one's that think their skating are not growing in grace and are quenching the spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.
 
it is possible for someone to come to faith as you put it without being a bible scholar but if they have no essential doctrine to believe in then what value will their faith be,many today think the bible was written only for those few Christians who like to read and the rest can skate.

Once you have come to faith, the Holy Spirit will guide you into the Word. The essential doctrine is the Holy Spirit living inside of you. No, the rest do not skate. The one's that think their skating are not growing in grace and are quenching the spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

Assuming they do that
 
it is possible for someone to come to faith as you put it without being a bible scholar but if they have no essential doctrine to believe in then what value will their faith be,many today think the bible was written only for those few Christians who like to read and the rest can skate.

Once you have come to faith, the Holy Spirit will guide you into the Word. The essential doctrine is the Holy Spirit living inside of you. No, the rest do not skate. The one's that think their skating are not growing in grace and are quenching the spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

Assuming they do that

??
 
Once you have come to faith, the Holy Spirit will guide you into the Word. The essential doctrine is the Holy Spirit living inside of you. No, the rest do not skate. The one's that think their skating are not growing in grace and are quenching the spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

:thumbsup
 
Wow this thread really took off! I actually agree with most of what has been written but I do see a couple posters that seem to have faith in head knowledge rather than the Lord. Perhaps in time?

I seen a few very profound statements and will address a couple things, but don't be offended if I don't respond to your particular post. I'd be here all day!

(Sparrow)
[Jam 3:1 ESV] 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

I hear you. I sure don't feel like a teacher, lol.
(Sparrow)
No doctrine (even the doctrine of Faith) is based on one verse in neglect of others. Some may come to this thread because they hear things that are not being said. What I've heard is that you have clearly stated that we are saved by Faith (and that not of ourselves, lest any should boast). The part that needs also to be stated (for proper balance) is [Jam 1:22 NKJV] 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves," and other "Action commands" that are found in the Word of truth.

I thought I did. Perhaps I was unclear? When one comes to faith, you don't put the Scriptures down and stop trying to learn them as one poster keeps insisting. You pick them up even faster with faith. Some seem to be confusing belief with faith. We can certainly believe without faith and not receive salvation (even the demons believe). Belief and faith together gives one an appetite for more. Doctrine begs the question do I have faith? Believing first...and then exercising the simple faith that we have been given (Romans 12:3... For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you./) culminates into more faith! As one poster do aptly put it; From faith to faith to faith...

Or better a illustration of the point would be;

From faith to to faith to faith!

So once belief is established and a very simple faith is exercised, we have to continue to act on it. To trust the Lord to provide. Really trust. Let us quit associating faith with belief and start associating faith with trust. You can't pray in the morning for the Lord to provide, and then in the afternoon worry about your financial situation, or go to your friend to borrow money. That's not faith or real faith. Faith is letting your needs be known and then purposing your heart to put it out of your mind and do not worry. Trust in the Lord and forget it. I've dont this very thing and proved it to myself.

The point about the doomsday preppers was a good one. Smart people they are, but with little faith. A little preparation is fine, two swords are enough. David had a sling. Moses had a rod....and a whole lot of faith! What happened? God was with them and they prevailed. Every time I trust in the Lord with all my heart and put the worry out of my mind, he comes through for me, always last minute, never a minute late. Interesting. What a graceful loving merciful God we have!

Why does God wait until last minute? The glory. God rightfully wants the glory. Last minute does several things. It gives us the opportunity to be overcomers by testing our faith and keep faith to the end. It culminates in a greater faith if we do, and gives God more Glory. Have I missed something? There's something more to it. I can't quite put my finger on it right now. Perhaps after more coffee, lol.

I am here today. If I have missed responding to you or haven't addressed it with this response, please post again and I will answer today. Hi Fishbreath! I agree with what you said, and Carolyn...good point as noted. urk...bullseye!
 
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This is for you, MountainMan. From my morning reading.

John 4:36-40
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

:thumbsup
 
On the love, mercy and peace I have felt through the Holy Spirit. It's a physical and mental experience.

Sounds very subjective and personal Urk, and quite frankly, that's my point. Your feelings gained from and about your faith was no more real and genuine to you than mines were to me or anyone elses is to them, but no matter how strong or lasting they are/were, they are still just feelings and therefore very subjective.
The question one must be able to answer to substantiate their feelings would be that of showing how it is they know that the feelings they felt was because of the HS. How can you objectively prove that the HS worked in you?

Then you weren't truly saved.

And what does that mean Urk? What is the salvation YOU SPEAK of and when is it fully received? Evidence please.

some people have come to faith without knowledge of the Bible. Coming to faith is a one time thing.


Then what is their faith based on? Is not the Bible the measuring stick that should be used to test one's faith to see if it is in line with sound doctrine? DOes the 'personal faith' of the individual somehow trump the faith(s) outlined in the scriptures?

here is the test that Paul would give to all who claim to be Christians; KNOW YE NOT THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS WITHIN YOU?

In the Corinthian letter Paul wrote he challenged the Corinthians to start living as if they knew they had the spirit. If you recall, the Corinthians were blessed with many gifts that empowered them to do miraculous things. These miraculous powers given by the spirit apparantly didn't serve to help them in their walk as their behavior was quite worldly.
 
Ah yes, now I remember. Last minute faith and what else it does. It keeps us humble, it empowers us. Remember that God gave us control (dominion) over the earth and our lives. He wants us to exercise this in faith and act. Some supporting scriptures. This may seem a tangent but is not, even though a whole thread could be dedicated to this subject!

You Have Authority & Power:
Did you know that regardless of what others say and do, you have the spiritual authority to rise above their actions and words! [Job 22:28]

As a matter of fact - not even the devil himself can resist or thwart the plans of a child of God when he or she uses the authority that God has placed in their hands! [Luke 10:19 • Matthew 16:19]

"Behold, I give unto YOU power (Authority) over serpents and scorpions (demonic powers), and over all the power of the enemy (even Satan): and nothing shall by any means hurt you." [Luke 10:19]

"YOU shall also decree a thing and it shall be established unto you and so light will shine on your ways. When they cast you down and YOU SAY 'Exaltation shall come!" then He shall save the humble person." [Job 22:28-29]

"Truthfully I say unto you, Whatsoever YOU shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Matthew 18:18]

"Let us hold fast the profession (Confession) of our faith without wavering (the words that we speak); (for he is faithful that promised;)" [Hebrews 10:23]

"Cast not away therefore your confidence (faith and trust in Him and His promises), which has great recompense (promise) of reward (results)." [Hebrews 10:35]

TOT,
God Himself has promised that these promises are YES and AMEN - and so you can be assured that when you begin to apply the principal of speaking in faith that you will see the promised manifestation of God's power in your life!
 
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