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Bible Study Faith without works

wondering

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Maybe to some, but that’s not the Biblical (or English) meaning of a “ritual”.

I heard a statistic the other day that’s related, I think. How many times (on average) would you guess that a Southern Baptist Church member in the US gets baptized?
What is a ritual?
To me it means doing something that is repetitive and which may, or may not, have a spiritual significance --- it would depend on the person doing the ritual.

I know how many local Italians are getting baptized...does that count!

 

wondering

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True today as well. But then cofessing “Jesus is Lord” with your mouth could and did get people’s hands and feet nailed to a cross. Whereas now it gets you laughed at in the USA and thrown in jail in China and other countries.
How sad. Seems like we went from one extreme to the other.
Jesus did say He did not come to bring peace....
He meant the worldly peace.
 

wondering

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Answered already.
The above post is for JLB....

I just want to say, that, yes, if your answer is no. 2, GOD, then yes, the idea is calvin-istic.

You might be one,,,I don't know. This would explain your choice. Otherwise - if you're not - could you explain why you believe it to be no. 2?
 

wondering

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Speaking in the Ancient Near East was not a "work". It was talking.
Works were productive activities that produced results. (Farming, acts of kindness, and granting permission to others)

Works can best be described as a reaction to belief that reflects the gratitude of the believer.
Good point John. Never thought of this.
A work produces a result.
It could even produce a QUIET result...for instance, if someone is arguing with you and you just remain quiet because it's not worth it - the result from this "work" is that there is no further argument and it ends.
 

JLB

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Answered already.

I’m sorry, but quoting the very scripture from which you asked the question, is not an answer.


I responded to your question and they way you laid it out...
With answers being listed and numbered.


I chose one of your very own listed answers and answered your question.


Here is your post with the question.


Now a question:

According to Jesus, is believing in Christ a work of:
1. Man
2. God
3. The Devil
4. None of the above
5. 1 and 2


Here is my answer -


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29



1. Man


Believing/obeying is the work of man.


Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.



Please stop playing silly games, Chessman.


Please just choose one of the actual answers from the list you yourself provided, and just answer the question that you asked, with one of the answers you yourself provided.


There’s no need to go around and around, wasting time and creating a negative atmosphere.


Here is your question -



According to Jesus, is believing in Christ a work of:
1. Man
2. God
3. The Devil
4. None of the above
5. 1 and 2



Please answer with one of the listed answers that you came up with.






JLB
 

JLB

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The above post is for JLB....

I just want to say, that, yes, if your answer is no. 2, GOD, then yes, the idea is calvin-istic.

You might be one,,,I don't know. This would explain your choice. Otherwise - if you're not - could you explain why you believe it to be no. 2?

Here is my answer from post 21, with an explanation.


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29



1. Man


Believing/obeying is the work of man.


Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.





JLB
 

JohnDB

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Good point John. Never thought of this.
A work produces a result.
It could even produce a QUIET result...for instance, if someone is arguing with you and you just remain quiet because it's not worth it - the result from this "work" is that there is no further argument and it ends.
We measure electricity in volt/amps or watts. Watts are explained as a measure of work... which includes refridgeration (the removal of heat) as well as producing heat.

Motors are rated in horsepower... which is a number of watts.

Voltage is pressure and amps is volume while imaginating a water hose. Filling a bucket requires work...both things together.
Potential difference (required for current flow) is not watts and there is no formula to make the two equate.

Just one of those things I learned as an electrician.
 

wondering

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Here is my answer from post 21, with an explanation.


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29



1. Man


Believing/obeying is the work of man.


Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.





JLB
I agree.
I THINK chessman chose no. 2,,,GOD...
See my post no. 45.

He can believe this, of course, if he so chooses to believe in the U of the acronym TULIP.

Otherwise, there IS a misunderstanding of that verse...
John 6:29
 

JLB

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I agree.
I THINK chessman chose no. 2,,,GOD...
See my post no. 45.

He can believe this, of course, if he so chooses to believe in the U of the acronym TULIP.

Otherwise, there IS a misunderstanding of that verse...
John 6:29

I don’t want to assume anything.


Just a simple answer, like I answered him.






JLB
 

wondering

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We measure electricity in volt/amps or watts. Watts are explained as a measure of work... which includes refridgeration (the removal of heat) as well as producing heat.

Motors are rated in horsepower... which is a number of watts.

Voltage is pressure and amps is volume while imaginating a water hose. Filling a bucket requires work...both things together.
Potential difference (required for current flow) is not watts and there is no formula to make the two equate.

Just one of those things I learned as an electrician.
I do know that the first bulbs wouldn't work because they kept burning out,,exploding; whatever.

I think it's interesting how everything in our universe is correlated.

And, there are only 2 lines that make up everything...
a straight line __________________________________
and a curved line ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

Amazing.
 

wondering

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Because that’s what Jesus says.

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

I believe Jesus.
Please join us JLB.....

Chessman believes the answer to be no. 2.....GOD.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Chessman, it cannot be no. 2....
Why?
Because this is not what Jesus said !!
I explained in my post above and will not explain again.
post. no. 33

God does not MAKE us believe...If this is the case, then He is a calvinistic God.

God has works.
Jesus has works.
Holy Spirit has works.

One of the works is NOT to MAKE us believe.
This is Christianity 101 UNLESS you believe John Calvin's theology.

Could you get some support please for your POV?
Maybe a commentary....
 

JLB

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Please join us JLB.....

Chessman believes the answer to be no. 2.....GOD.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Chessman, it cannot be no. 2....
Why?
Because this is not what Jesus said !!
I explained in my post above and will not explain again.

God does not MAKE us believe...If this is the case, then He is a calvinistic God.

God has works.
Jesus has works.
Holy Spirit has works.

One of the works is NOT to MAKE us believe.
This is Christianity 101 UNLESS you believe John Calvin's theology.

Could you get some support please for your POV?
Maybe a commentary....

I would like a good honest discussion.


He should be truthful enough to just answer the question the way he has asked us to.

Just like I answered.

That way I don’t have to assume what his answer is.


I get the idea he doesn’t really know what he believes, either that or he knows but is just too ashamed of his answer.


:shrug



JLB
 

wondering

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I would like a good honest discussion.


He should be truthful enough to just answer the question the way he has asked us to.

Just like I answered.

That way I don’t have to assume what his answer is.


I get the idea he doesn’t really know what he believes, either that or he knows but is just too ashamed of his answer.


:shrug

JLB
I do believe that chessman has the perfect opportunity to make his position very clear.

Let's see if he's willing to discuss it and not beat around the bush....

I'd like to understand how God making, or forcing us, to believe is NOT calvinistic.

:whirl
 

chessman

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wondering

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Sure. Jesus said the following:

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

When asked; Who’s work is it that I am believing in Christ? I’m gonna answer it’s God’s work every time.
This is what I've noticed Chessman...
You and I never discuss a difference of opinion regarding a doctrine...the difference always (never say always) seems to be circling around words. Words or phrases or sentences that IT SEEMS TO ME you don't grasp properly.

In John 6:28 the people ask Jesus:
What shall we do that we may work the works of God...

What does this mean?
1. Are you saying that they want to know how they could do the same works that God does????

2. Or do you think they're saying that they would like to do the works OF God in the sense of doing works God would like them to do?

I mean, think of it...They certainly CANNOT do the same works that God does...so surely the answer must be no. 2.
 

wondering

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I need some rest time after dinner.
Be back later. I'm not moving on to John 6:29 till we get 6:28 straight.

IF you are calvinistic in theology, then just say so and the conversation is over.
 

chessman

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In John 6:28 the people ask Jesus:
What shall we do that we may work the works of God...

What does this mean?
1. Are you saying that they want to know how they could do the same works that God does????

2. Or do you think they're saying that they would like to do the works OF God in the sense of doing works God would like them to do?
#1 Like the Text says, they were there asking this question so that they could fill their bellies with more of this bread (natural, regular ole bread) Jesus miraculously gave them as a sign the day before. This is the same crowd Jesus had just feed with bread the day before. They KNEW He had the ability to work miracles (i.e. “the works of God”). They’d just seen it happen with their own eyes and filled their bellies with this bread and rather selfishly wanted that same ability (Jesus says so, not me).

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:26&version=NASB
So to answer your question as directly as I know how (just like I did (at least twice) to my question by directly saying “#2” to my question yet I have to withstand numerous false accusations that I avoided it) the correct answer is #1. They where asking Him how they could do miracles like He’d done. Which is why John includes not just their question, but a “therefore” conjunction:

So they said to Him, “What may we be doing in order that we may be working the works of God?” Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:28-29&version=DLNT

Or in the NASB:

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:28&version=NASB

John’s directing his readers to look at what Jesus just said about their motivations for asking this question (not make up their own ideas about why they asked this question).
 

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