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Bible Study Faith without works

Truthfrees

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The work we have from God to do is believe.

He tells us what to do, and we do it.

This is called the obedience of faith.

It’s all through the Bible.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

Noah heard God and responded with godly fear, and built the Ark.

Noah did His part: He obeyed.

Who saved Noah’s family?
  • prepared an ark for the saving of his household
God have him wisdom, knowledge and understanding, as well as grace, to do what He has never done, for 120 years Noah worked to build the Ark.

Then it came time to round up the animals!!!!
:thud


JLB
ok - then when you say man does the works of God i will call that same thing man responds/accepts the works of God with faith/words/actions/obedience
 

ezra

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i was asking him questions trying to understand tulip freewill predestination etc

i really didn't get anywhere - the concepts the guy was sharing were too confusing so i had to give up

to this day i still don't understand the calvinist version of tulip - and after talking with you privately i have decided that it is best if i don't try any longer - thanks for all the wisdom you shared with me regarding all the questions i asked you - you helped me more than anyone else has on this matter - it helped me to lay it to rest - God bless you
it is rather confusing i understand bit and pieces .i did email correspondence went back forth for long time.. he finally gave up sometimes ya just got know when to fold them know when to hold them and know when to run lol aka kenny rogers the gambler ..
 

JLB

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ok - then when you say man does the works of God i will call that same thing man responds/accepts the works of God with faith/words/actions/obedience

Let’s tune it just a little more.


Instead of “works” plural.

Let’s stick, (for this discussion from John 6:29) with what Jesus said.


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


This is the work (singular) that God has for all of us, to obey His Son, the One God sent.


Remember, Jesus said this earlier in John -



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36


JLB
 

JLB

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wondering, this is how it works with some people sometimes.

Jesus provides the answer:


and by the end of the post it becomes:



When your motivations drive your ‘interpretation’, it’s called eisegesis.

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. ...​

When you simply interpret what the Text actually says, it’s called exegesis of the Text.

Definition: To interpret a text by way of a thorough analysis of its content. When you do exegesis, you are an exegete who is exegeting the text.​

The work that God has for us to do, is believe Him, and therefore obey Him.


This is man’s work.


Explain to us, how God believes Himself, and man is saved by God believing Himself.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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it is rather confusing i understand bit and pieces .i did email correspondence went back forth for long time.. he finally gave up sometimes ya just got know when to fold them know when to hold them and know when to run lol aka kenny rogers the gambler ..
amen - i would have kept trying but you helped me to see that - knowing when to fold is wise
 
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Truthfrees

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Let’s tune it just a little more.

Instead of “works” plural.

Let’s stick, (for this discussion from John 6:29) with what Jesus said.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

This is the work (singular) that God has for all of us, to obey His Son, the One God sent.

Remember, Jesus said this earlier in John -

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

JLB
if you can simplify it it will help more people understand - semantic gymnastics lose a lot of people -

arguing over terms creates back-draft - sharing usable truth so people can apply it successfully to their daily life is optimal for advancing
 
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JLB

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if you can simplify it it will help more people understand - semantic gymnastics lose a lot of people - i'm pretty smart but semantic gymnastics are too complicated for me - my business success revolves around making things as simple as possible for my clients

arguing over terms creates back-draft - sharing usable truth so people can apply it successfully to their daily life is optimal for advancing


This is the work (singular) that God has for all of us, to obey His Son, the One God sent.



“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46




JLB
 

JLB

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if you can simplify it it will help more people understand - semantic gymnastics lose a lot of people - i'm pretty smart but semantic gymnastics are too complicated for me - my business success revolves around making things as simple as possible for my clients

arguing over terms creates back-draft - sharing usable truth so people can apply it successfully to their daily life is optimal for advancing

Do you believe Jesus is saying that it is God’s work to believe for us?


To me that is confusing.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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This is the work (singular) that God has for all of us, to obey His Son, the One God sent.

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

JLB
Do you believe Jesus is saying that it is God’s work to believe for us?

To me that is confusing.

JLB
i'm saying God does the work - gives each man the measure of faith - calls us to Himself - sends His Son to die for us - sends His Holy Spirit to help us - sends people to pray for us and speak to us - and then it is up to us to accept/believe/obey or reject all of this that God did for us

seems like all the work is God and the little part of accept believe obey is too little to be called work - it seems to me like calling it a response would be more in line

no one says God believes for us - why do you keep saying that?

we're all saying the same thing really
 

JLB

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arguing over terms creates back-draft - sharing usable truth so people can apply it successfully to their daily life is optimal for advancing

Which is exactly why you and I are developing a Forum list of biblical words and terms, so that we can cut out the nonsense of arguing over the meaning of words.




JLB
 

JLB

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i'm saying God does the work
The work described by Jesus is to believe.


How does God do this believing for us?


Not that confusing.




JLB
 

JLB

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we're all saying the same thing really

Not even close.


Here is what I’m saying.


This is the work (singular) that God has for all of us, to obey His Son, the One God sent.



“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46




JLB
 

JLB

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no one says God believes for us - why do you keep saying that?

What other conclusion is there.


There are two person’s involved in this scenario of believing.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29



Jesus said this is the work of God, that you believe...



Here is the original question from Chessman.


Chessman said

Now a question:

According to Jesus, is believing in Christ a work of:
1. Man
2. God
3. The Devil
4. None of the above
5. 1 and 2

His answer is 2. God


Where in the Bible does it teach that God believes in Christ on our behalf?


Here’s my answer -


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29



1. Man


Believing/obeying is the work of man.


Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.



JLB
 

Truthfrees

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Which is exactly why you and I are developing a Forum list of biblical words and terms, so that we can cut out the nonsense of arguing over the meaning of words.

JLB
amen
The work described by Jesus is to believe.
This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.John 6:29
amen
i agree with you - if Jesus says this is the work of God that we believe in Jesus then somehow it is the work of God

Romans 12:3 - God gives to everyone THE measure of faith -

Jesus says in John 6:44 all that the Father draws comes unto Me -

it looks like God does the work and we accept or reject that work - accept or reject Jesus - accept or reject everything Jesus offers us -

many are called but few are chosen - i chose you you did not choose ME -

all of this together seems like God instigates / invites and we respond or not -

if we respond God gets the credit - we can never boast about anything because it really was a work of God that we responded to - Ephesians 2:8-9

if a person rejects God's offer of salvation through Christ that would be very foolish - either a sign that a person loves sin and refuses to come to Christ - John 3:19-20 - or that they don't realize what is being offered to them - 2 Corinthians 4:4
scripture says us believing is a work of God - so WE believe - but somehow God did the work to cause us to believe - iow God does not believe for us but God does something so that we have the chance/ability to believe -

imo the scripture that says GOD GIVES to EVERY man the measure of faith is the HOW - the work of God is that He gives EVERY man the same measure of faith - how each person uses that measure of faith is up to us - some people use that measure of faith to believe God's work of salvation - others i suppose use that measure of faith to reject God's work of salvation - each person decides for himself how to use the faith God gave to every man
 
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JLB

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but somehow God did the work to cause us to believe

Ok. Right there.

Let’s examine this thought.


Does God cause some to believe, while not causing others to believe?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Now here is the fallacy of what Chessman is promoting.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever God chooses to cause to believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Chessman 3:16



If it is God causing us to believe then why do some not believe if God is the cause of them believing?


I hope you see the where this is leading.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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Ok. Right there.

Let’s examine this thought.

Does God cause some to believe, while not causing others to believe?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Now here is the fallacy of what Chessman is promoting.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever God chooses to cause to believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Chessman 3:16

If it is God causing us to believe then why do some not believe if God is the cause of them believing?

I hope you see the where this is leading.

JLB
God gives every man the measure of faith - some use it to believe God - some use it to believe lies
 

JLB

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God gives every man the measure of faith - some use it to believe God - some use it to believe lies

Use it to believe lies?

We don’t receive faith from lies, we receive faith from God.




The principle of faith -


When we hear the Gospel message, we now have faith.


It’s now up to us to believe (obey) the Gospel.


Obedience is the principle by which faith is activated to produce the intended divine result, otherwise our faith that we received from God is dead; dormant, inactive.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


The “work” being referred to here is Abraham’s obedient response to God’s command to sacrifice his son on the altar.


Without this obedience response to God’s command, by which we receive faith, our faith remains dormant, dead and inactive, just as a body without a spirit is dead and inactive.



Remember faith is a noun.

Believe is a verb.





JLB
 

wondering

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amen

amen


scripture says us believing is a work of God - so WE believe - but somehow God did the work to cause us to believe - iow God does not believe for us but God does something so that we have the chance/ability to believe -

imo the scripture that says GOD GIVES to EVERY man the measure of faith is the HOW - the work of God is that He gives EVERY man the same measure of faith - how each person uses that measure of faith is up to us - some people use that measure of faith to believe God's work of salvation - others i suppose use that measure of faith to reject God's work of salvation - each person decides for himself how to use the faith God gave to every man
Hi TF,
The page opened up to this and I'd like to post to you but after lunch -- no time right now.

Later.
JLB is right but why is he right---that's the question...
 

wondering

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chessman

Good Morning Chessman,
I did some research and this is what I came up with:

John 6:27, 28, 29

What got me thinking was that in John 6:28 the word "works" is used. That they might work the WORKS of God. So it could seem that they could have meant to do the miracles that Jesus did,,,,as you said. And I told you I had never heard this before.

First I pulled out about 6 bibles, including two Italian ones and it didn't help me too much. So, I did what I do in case of emergencies (!), I went to commentaries.

First I'd like to say that of my own opinion and understanding the people of that time were rather poor and humble persons...not all of course. If they were asking what you understand, they'd be asking to be like Jesus,,,they'd be asking to do miracles as He did miracles. This is possible, but I doubt it would be likely because of the great respect and fear they had of God....would they be asking to be able to do whta God does?? I don't think so.

I checked out the commentaries and it does seem to me that they agree that verses mean that the people wanted to know how they could do works so as to please God. I know it sounds bad in the English and also in Italian,,,but minds brighter than ours have studied this, and it IS the way I've always understood this,

so here are some commentaries. You could also look these up yourself in biblehub commentaries and the verse. They all agree:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(28) This verse confirms the meaning given to the preceding words. They understand them in that sense. There are works for them to do which are appointed of God. What shall they do that they may work these works? They had seen Him doing mighty works, which clearly showed the power of God. Are there for them works of a like kind? What steps must they take that they too may work them?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


MacLaren's Expositions
They put to Him this question of my text, so strangely blending as it does right and wrong, ‘You have bid us work; tell us how to work? What must we do that we may work the works of God?’ Christ answers, in words that illuminate their confusions and clear the whole matter, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.’

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Meyer's NT Commentary
John 6:28-29. The people perceive that a moralrequirement is signified by τὴν βρῶσιν τ. μένουσαν, etc.; they do not understand what, but they think that Jesus means works, which God requires to be done (ἔργα τ. θεοῦ, comp. Matthew 6:33; Revelation 2:26; Bar 2:9; Jeremiah 48:10). Therefore the question, “What are we to do, to work the works required by God?” (which thou seemest to mean). Ἐργάζεσθαι ἔργα, “to perform works,” very common in all Greek (see on John 3:21): ἐργάζ. here, therefore, is not to be taken as in John 6:27.

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Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
28. Then said they] They said therefore.

What shall we do, that we might work] Better, what must we do that we may work. They see that His words have a moral meaning; they are to do works pleasing to God. But how to set about this?

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Bengel's Gnomen
John 6:28. Τὶ ποιῶμεν) What are we to do; what work do you desire us to work? John 6:27, “Labour—for the meat which endureth to everlasting life.”—τὰ ἔργα τοῦ Θεοῦ, the works of God) The works approved by God, and which unite us to God.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 

Truthfrees

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Use it to believe lies?

We don’t receive faith from lies, we receive faith from God.
adam and eve used their measure of faith God gave them to believe the serpent about eating the fruit of the tree of life rather than believing God about NOT eating the fruit - 2 Thessalonians 2:11

the 10 spies used their measure of faith God gave them to believe the giants were too big - caleb and joshua used their measure of faith to belive God would cause them to take caanan as promised - 2 Thessalonians 2:11

the young prophet used his faith to believe the old prophets words he could go back home the same way he came - rather than believe God's words that a lion would kill him if he went back home the same way he came - 2 Thessalonians 2:11

we can use our faith to believe God's words or we can use our faith to believe someone/something opposite - God tells the truth - anyone/anything contradictory is a lie - 2 Thessalonians 2:11
 
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