Yes we do the work of believing (obeying) God.
Therefore it is man’s work to do, that was given to them by God.
Obeying God is the work that man does.
JLB
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Bible Study Faith without works
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Yes we do the work of believing (obeying) God.
Therefore it is man’s work to do, that was given to them by God.
Obeying God is the work that man does.
JLB
chessman
Member
Wrong againThis is from post #23!
I didn’t even ask you the question until post number 39.
Here is post number 39 -
JLB
I falsely accuse no one.
I ask you your own question, with your own answers and rather than simply just answer the question, you go round and round.
JLB
Now it happened as they went that He entered a certain village; and a certain woman named Martha welcomed Him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus’ feet and heard His word. But Martha was distracted with much serving, and she approached Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Therefore tell her to help me.”
And Jesus answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.” Luke 10:38-42
- Mary, who also sat at Jesus’ feet and heard His word.
- Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. But one thing is needed,
Mary responded to Jesus in loving obedience.
Martha was distracted and worried.
JLB
When someone asks us a legitimate question during a discussion, then we should answer.
If we are asked to explain our answer, then we should if we want to have an honest fruitful discussion.
If on the other hand, we choose not to discuss our perspective, then just do like you do, and say -
I’m not going to discuss this with you - goodby !
JLB
chessman
Member
And I answered you immediately in post #41 by pointing out (backquoting it) that I’d already answered. Here’s the link so you verify it.
And others have pointed out to you that I did answer my question too. But I’m through discussing your error on this point with you as I’m sure it bores others as it does me.
You might very well think so. That doesn’t mean it’s true.
chessman
Member
Which of course doesn’t say, indicate or even imply that “worrying is unbelief” or disobedience.
Jesus hadn’t told Martha or Mary to sit at His feet. Mary choose to, choose to listen to His teaching and was worried about someone else’s actions than her own (sound familiar?)
But there is a need of one thing. For Mary chose the good part, which will not be taken-away from her”.
Luke 10:42 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 10:42&version=DLNTMartha had received Jesus AND was listening to Him also.
Regardless, Jesus doesn’t teach worrying = unbelief.
stovebolts
Member
chessman and JLB
I've only read the previous 2 pages and if I may, I'd like to speak of what I am seeing from the two of you. Please know I'm not taking sides, but what I see is a simple failure to listen with the intent of understanding the others point of view.
When I read the other is falsly accusing another, and the other is oblivious to the accusation, this only affirms that neither is listening and neither is attempting to understand the other.
If I may, your two points of view can be reconcilled easily.
God desires all men to be saved. As a result, God uses and has used His Holy Spirit to both convict and woo the hearts of all men. This is the work of God, and so much more because He desires such a relationship with us, that He became flesh and dwell among us and freely offered himself for our sins upon the cross. All of this, and more is the work of God. We don't normally look at it like this, but He has faith in us as well, and we see this when He appoints 12 to spread the good news
We can believe what God did because we can see what God did. God showed us faith with works. We believe what God did because it's true.
How then do we respond to what God has done and is doing? When His Holy Spirit woo's us, do we accept it or reject it?
God has given us a gift, a gift only He could provide. The question is, what will we do with that gift?
I've only read the previous 2 pages and if I may, I'd like to speak of what I am seeing from the two of you. Please know I'm not taking sides, but what I see is a simple failure to listen with the intent of understanding the others point of view.
When I read the other is falsly accusing another, and the other is oblivious to the accusation, this only affirms that neither is listening and neither is attempting to understand the other.
If I may, your two points of view can be reconcilled easily.
God desires all men to be saved. As a result, God uses and has used His Holy Spirit to both convict and woo the hearts of all men. This is the work of God, and so much more because He desires such a relationship with us, that He became flesh and dwell among us and freely offered himself for our sins upon the cross. All of this, and more is the work of God. We don't normally look at it like this, but He has faith in us as well, and we see this when He appoints 12 to spread the good news
We can believe what God did because we can see what God did. God showed us faith with works. We believe what God did because it's true.
How then do we respond to what God has done and is doing? When His Holy Spirit woo's us, do we accept it or reject it?
God has given us a gift, a gift only He could provide. The question is, what will we do with that gift?
You are entitled to your opinion, however it doesn’t make it true.
Sound familiar ?
JLB
Yes, God’s work is to woo us, and move us.
God’s work is to send His Apostles to preach the Gospel.
The work that God has for man to do, is believe His Son.
To obey the Gospel, the commandments, and the doctrine of His Son.
JLB
I see it differently.
How about this one?
“Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
“So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
“Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ Matthew 6:25-31
Maybe this conveys my perspective better.
JLB
Whose work is it to believe?
Man or God?
I don’t want people to think man plays no part in his salvation, which is a very common theme in some of the doctrines being promoted today.
Our part is to believe/obey the Gospel.
Some believe and teach that God chooses some for salvation, and chooses some for damnation.
This doctrine promotes the idea that we who are chosen by God for salvation, can only believe after we are born again.
JLB
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stovebolts
Member
Your question is rhetoricle in nature and my answer was in my initial post.
It's ok to lean one way, but not at the expense of loosing the other side of the story. Let me see if I can illistrate a bit better.
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Who is doing the work? I am. But who is giving me the Strength to do the work? God is.
Can I say the work I am doing is my work? Sure, but it begs the question, could you do that work on your own strength? The answer would be no. But let's say somebody decided to say it was by their own strength, would it then be their own work? And what value would that afford them in boasting?
We are saved by grace, and not of our own work, but by the work of God. But as important, we are to do God's work which He prepared in advance.
I mean, we could split off of anything I've said and isolate it into it's own stand alone idea, but when we do, I think we need to keep the whole picture in perspective.
In short, I think we are co-workers with Christ.
Here is my answer to Chessman’s question, which seems to be what you are saying.
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29
1. Man
Believing/obeying is the work of man.
Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.
Do you agree or disagree?
JLB
Ok I pretty much agree with what you are saying.
When it comes to believing, is that man’s part or God’s part?
JLB
stovebolts
Member
Your thoughts are close enough for me.
Simply put, I see it kinda like this. God gives us grace, but he has also given us a multitude of gifts, and those gifts are God's work. Our work is accepting that gift and being co-workers with Christ.
As far as believing, God uses the Holy Spirit to convict and woo every person. This is God's work. Our work is accepting those gifts, and using them in an appropriate way. Anyway, that's my short and sweet and by no means covers every premise, nook or attribute. But it is a lense I view portions of scripture through. It doesn't mean I'm right, it simple shows the work God's done in my life, and he certainly isn't finished.
chessman
Member
Mutually exclusive statements cannot be reconciled, by definition. Take the statement; I didn’t answer my own question. And the statement; I answered my own question. One and only one of those statements is logically correct. Now it’s true that someone can hold a different meaning to ‘answer’ in one statement than in the other statement (equivocation) and ‘reconcile’ the two different statements. But it’s a logical fallacy to change the meaning of ‘answer’ into no answer. I answered my own question, clearly.
But yes, I get your POV that there is some common ground between our two different views and I don’t necessarily disagree with that point.
Yes, God desires that Jews and Gentiles, men from every nation to be saved. And they will be. It’s God’s desire to work this out!
Sure. My point (because it was Jesus’s point) is that the “and more” includes our believing in Christ:
Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNTAnyone saying it is not the work of God but rather Men that believers believe in Christ is either 1) wrong or 2) equivocating over the word “work”.
Which is why a previously posted it’s Biblical meaning.
Yes sir.
However, concerning the Gospel and initial salvation, would you agree that it’s up to man to believe or not?
Yes, I believe God’s Grace, His divine ability and power are available to aide us, but the actual work or effort of believing and obeying the Gospel is up to man.
If not, then all would be saved.
JLB