Bible Study Familiar Spirits

[for_his_glory]

You are changing words again, this piece of scripture does not say the word speak. Where you are saying it says speak, it actually says answer. It says God would not answer Saul, not God would not speak to Saul. You need to understand that the word you want to use is not there.


You said Saul was desperate for any answer.


Where does it say that?


Favour hasn't been mentioned, the depths of God's mercy to reach one of His own has.


It says the kingdom was torn from him right after the battle with Amalek, long before Saul died.


Satan can use anything or anyone he chooses? I won't ask where that is written because it's not. We know how the devil works, and what he pretends to be, but why change the wording in 2 Corinthians 11:14?


Where are you getting the idea that the devil can take any form he wants? Where does it say that? Realms? Can you hear yourself? Glory, none of this stuff is written anywhere. This is the exact thing I was talking about when I said the term Christian mysticism.


Something totally relevant. The only thing the multitude of cultures seem to be able to agree on about what we in Christendom would term a familiar spirit is that they are very low in rank.

I'm not sure what that list is for. I have no idea why in the world you would say devils want to be near dead bodies or tombs when the scripture doesn't use those words. One possession account taking place in or near a graveyard and all of a sudden it's a rule for them all? One account in the mountains and that means they have an affinity for heights? Devils have a desire for water? That's not there either. Legion didn't run into the water cause it/they enjoyed being wet, it was done so they could be free of the humiliation of being in swine. There is more but that list doesn't need addressing. We aren't talking about those kinds of nasties, we are talking about the minor ones that would be termed familiar spirits.

We have to deal with the text and what it says. We cannot go beyond that. Stepping into the judgement seat of Saul and thinking that because you figure he is condemned that now anything and everything evil can happen with no holds barred is not a scriptural stance.

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

God did not answer Saul so I see it as God did not speak to Saul as to answer him. This is why Saul sought out this medium/witch with a familar spirit as he was desperate as he feared the Philistines.

Of course Saul was desperate for an answer as he thought this woman could actually raise Samuel from the grave to speak to tell him what he should do.

1 Samuel 15:24-31 Saul only asked Samuel to pardon his sin, but never repented to God and ask His forgiveness. 1 Chronicles 10:13 God slew Saul by his own sword. Does this not show that God rejected Saul per Hosea 4:6,7. Saul had knowledge at one time, but chose to reject it and go his own way.

Saul did have favor in the Lord as God anointed him king over Israel, but it repented God after Saul's transgression against God's commands and He made David king, 1 Samuel 15:10, 11.

That should have said God turned the kingdom unto David and in the end of the battle with the Philistines God slew him. That was my mistake, thank you.

By taking on any form I am speaking about Satan who controls demons which by his commands they will posses animals and humans for his purpose of deception like that of Rev 13. Mark 5:1-20; 9:17-29 gives much detail about what demons can do. Ephesians 6:12 states Satan has a hierarchy of "devils" in his kingdom, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Thus some devils have more power and authority than others.

Would you not think that a medium/witch with a familar spirit is not of Satan's power working in them. Please read Leviticus 19:31; 20:6; Isaiah 8:19; 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Rev 13 just to name a few scriptures.

 

[K2CHRIST]

What about God? Did Saul ever repent and ask forgiveness of the Lord for his disobedience rejecting the word of God, no. Saul went as far in his disobedience and rejecting God's commands, because of his fear of the Philistines, to actually seek out a medium/witch with a familar spirit that is forbidden by God to do so. God considers it an act of rebellion which is the same sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, 1 Samuel 15:23.

Did Saul have a chance to repent and ask God's forgiveness, yes, but he never did and for that he went into battle and God slew him by his own sword, 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Hosea 4:6, 7 is what happened to Saul.

It's not a question of if Saul repented, but that God was drawing him to do so!!

If we present the case that instead of Samuel it was a demonic spirit, then the Devil is trying to get people to repent!!

What sense does that make! The devil would have told Saul that all was ok, that Saul would be fine going out to battle.! That is why in the case of Ahab, that is exactly what the lying spirit told Ahab, yet the prophet of God said otherwise.

This is why many people see God in the old testament as being mean. God reproves us and warns us, but we tend to think God is the One that is telling us that everything is ok, when it is not.

This is why this issue is important enough to keep going over. It is God, not the devil, that warns us when we are doing things wrong!! And it is not God, but the devil that tells us that everything is ok when we know we are doing things wrong.

We are correct to think it was wrong for Saul to seek out the witch, even Saul knew that. We are wrong to think it was not Samuel but an evil spirit that spoke to Saul at that time. We think that because we don't believe God can and will as needed, crash in on the work of the devil, which is giving glory to the devil instead of God. Think about it: if we are not crediting Samuel, like it is written, for having the warning and accurate prophecy we are indeed giving Satan God's glory. That's a problem!

Saul indeed get what he deserved, but that was not because God wasn't trying to keep him from making those poor decisions, even to the very end. Even God not giving Saul a word earlier was design to show Saul that he was in poor standing with the Lord and get him to repent. But when Saul didn't notice he had a problem then and kept on his course it only made sense for God to send Samuel to warn him one last time. The account as written makes perfectly good sense. God acted wisely every time. And if we talk to Him and are willing to be taught, and not stubborn as far as our thinking goes, He does show us how He was right, and how the Bible is correct, because He had it written.

Is 1: 18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, ...

Reasoning with Him means I present my thinking and He presents His (so I must listen to it), which is not going to be my thinking because His thoughts are not my thoughts. I can certainly understand why we would think it was a demonic [familiar spirit], because that is what would be expected from doing what king Saul did. I can also understand why we would think it couldn't be Samuel because God had previously not spoken through a prophet to Saul.

Yet it is written that 'Samuel said', and so Samuel said. And after talking to the Lord who had it written, you are going to find out why it was Samuel, as written, and not what we would have thought. If we reason with the Lord, we indeed find out that the Lord's thinking is greater than ours, and He is loving and caring enough to warn us, and that He can easily crash in on Satan as needed. God proved Himself to be a righteous, loving, and caring God, by sending Samuel with an accurate prophetic warning to king Saul even though Saul was doing everything wrong. Saul still had freewill. He could have repented, made a sacrifice, humbled himself, tore his clothes, and sat in sack cloth, but he choose to go out to battle without God despite the warning.

I have a question: If Satan knew a big defeat was coming for the Israel army is he going to tell them it is coming or is he going to encourage then to go out to battle? Plainly, the message that Saul got was not a message a devil would have brought! The devil doesn't want you to consider how you stand with God before going and doing things.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Before going on to other things, it needs to be noted that we are not to go to fortunetellers, witches, and the like. That is not how to seek God but the devil. You will almost certainly wind up with a demonic spirit, and it can't be good for you since it is not God's wish? It wasn't good for Saul, even though he actually was seeking a word from God when he went. So even though God did seen Samuel, according to the Bible, Saul got an awful but appropriate and accurate word of prophecy. Even then Saul was unwilling to repent and consider where he stood with the Lord.

Saul got what he deserved, but God doesn't want us to get what we deserve. He loves us. The work of God is that all should come to know the Son. To know the Son we must repent of our ways and seek the Lord. In Saul's time a sacrifice might also have been needed, but in our time a sacrifice has been made, even the Son of the most high.

So did God actually send Samuel into the work of the devil like the Bible says? God so loved the world that He actually sent His only begotten Son down into an evil world. That act was a warning to us, if we care to see it. We deserve the fires of hell, but we can repent, meaning turning from our ways and our thoughts and seeking the One who is clothed with a robe dipped in blood and whose name is called, 'The Word of God' because He had the words that God has for us personally. He will send His Holy Spirit with those words to speak to your spirit. Will we listen? Will we consider? Saul didn't, and we have that story to show us how 'we' are, and how God is. He is righteous in all his ways, but we are people like king Saul.

 

[for_his_glory]

K2Christ,

Please show me in scripture where God was drawing Saul to repent.

Where did this familar spirit try to get Saul to repent within the conversation it had with Saul? If God was trying to get Saul to repent then why does it say in 1 Chronicles 10:14 that God slew him because of his transgression against the Lord.

It was the woman that was a medium/witch that summoned up her familar spirit that looked like an old man with a mantle which was an imitation of Samuel as this is why scripture says "Samuel said".

According to Luke 16:26 it's like a wall between the damned and those who are God's own that have died that one can not cross over that wall to the other side. A medium/witch with a familar spirit is an abomination to God and all who consult them God will turn His face from them and cut them off. Leviticus 19:31; 20:6; Isaiah 8:19; Deuteronomy 18:9-12.

Saul knew God departed from him especially after what Samuel told him while he was alive in 1 Samuel 15 and in his distress you would have thought he would have turned back to God and repented for his transgression against the Lord and asked for forgiveness, but he never did. God is not going to force anyone to turn back to Him after they have walked away from Him. It's ones own convictions that should make them come back to God.

Read again what this familar spirit spoke to Saul in vs. 16-19. In vs. 17 and 18 this spirit told Saul God departed from him and now he is an enemy of God as He rent the kingdom from Saul. This spirit was reiterating what was already spoken to Saul by Samuel when he was alive so this familar spirit is telling Saul that of what he already knew.
Vs. 18, 19 was a confirmation, not a prophecy, of what was going to happen to Saul as he lead himself and Israel away from God during the battle with the Amalek. You would have thought Saul would have turned back to God at that point, but never did and God actually slew him in battle with the Philistines as Saul fell on his own sword.

 

[Northman]

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

God did not answer Saul so I see it as God did not speak to Saul as to answer him.

Yes I understand that you need it to have speak in there, but let it just say what it says with no interpretation or words added in.

Of course Saul was desperate for an answer as he thought this woman could actually raise Samuel from the grave to speak to tell him what he should do.

At first you said "desperate for any answer".
Saul sought a necromancer, for the purposes of communicating with the dead, because that's what necromancy is. It's not called fake communication with things pretending to be the dead. I don't think Saul knew how any of that worked at all. All he wanted to do was talk to Samuel.

1 Samuel 15:24-31 Saul only asked Samuel to pardon his sin, but never repented to God and ask His forgiveness.

What does this have to do with what we are talking about again?

1 Chronicles 10:13 God slew Saul by his own sword. Does this not show that God rejected Saul per Hosea 4:6,7. Saul had knowledge at one time, but chose to reject it and go his own way.

It's not a "per" thing. The first scripture you gave in Chronicles is what happened to Saul and why. If you go beyond that you take the judgement seat. Look at what verse 7 in Hosea 4 says. It says that they got worse the more they increased, which would be the opposite of Saul's life lesson. Saul did nothing but decrease after the battle with Amalek.

By taking on any form I am speaking about Satan who controls demons which by his commands they will posses animals and humans for his purpose of deception like that of Rev 13. Mark 5:1-20; 9:17-29 gives much detail about what demons can do. Ephesians 6:12 states Satan has a hierarchy of "devils" in his kingdom, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Thus some devils have more power and authority than others.

Would you not think that a medium/witch with a familar spirit is not of Satan's power working in them. Please read Leviticus 19:31; 20:6; Isaiah 8:19; 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Rev 13 just to name a few scriptures.

The power all beings have is given to them by God. Satan didn't create these familiar spirits and give them power, God did. God says don't communicate with the dead. Those spirits help people do that so they are in defiance of what God said, and that is how they serve the devil. God can use and work through and by them just as He does with other things he doesn't like and tells us to steer clear from.

Power structure needs to be understood. Satan is the chief devil. The chief devil is used by God. Everything under the the devil is also subject. It's God's right. The reasons that you thought were scriptural and gave yourself for this not being able to happen are gone.

 

[Northman]

Vs. 18, 19 was a confirmation, not a prophecy

You can't change what a prophecy is. Prophecy is nothing more than an accurate prediction of something to happen in the future, which is what vs 19 is. Saying it was a confirmation means it would have had to have been said before, of which none of verse 19 was. The word moreover is used, that means something is being added.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes I understand that you need it to have speak in there, but let it just say what it says with no interpretation or words added in.


At first you said "desperate for any answer".
Saul sought a necromancer, for the purposes of communicating with the dead, because that's what necromancy is. It's not called fake communication with things pretending to be the dead. I don't think Saul knew how any of that worked at all. All he wanted to do was talk to Samuel.


What does this have to do with what we are talking about again?


It's not a "per" thing. The first scripture you gave in Chronicles is what happened to Saul and why. If you go beyond that you take the judgement seat. Look at what verse 7 in Hosea 4 says. It says that they got worse the more they increased, which would be the opposite of Saul's life lesson. Saul did nothing but decrease after the battle with Amalek.


The power all beings have is given to them by God. Satan didn't create these familiar spirits and give them power, God did. God says don't communicate with the dead. Those spirits help people do that so they are in defiance of what God said, and that is how they serve the devil. God can use and work through and by them just as He does with other things he doesn't like and tells us to steer clear from.

Power structure needs to be understood. Satan is the chief devil. The chief devil is used by God. Everything under the the devil is also subject. It's God's right. The reasons that you thought were scriptural and gave yourself for this not being able to happen are gone.

If someone is not answering you is that not the same things as not speaking to you. I am adding nothing there. Silence is silence.

This medium/witch did not have the power to raise anyone from the dead. That power belongs to the Lord. Our problem is what we believe a medium with a familar spirit is and what a familar spirit is capable of as I have been explaining.

Saul not asking God to forgive him that of which he transgressed against the Lord has everything to do with why he sought out a medium in the first place.

Hosea 4: 6, 7 is exactly what Saul did in rejecting the word of God and walked in his own path rejecting God's commands about Amalek. His shame grew even more when he sought out a medium with a familar spirit.

I already gave you those scriptures in Mark and Ephesians of what demons are capable of and who controls them. These are the principalities of darkness that Satan gives power to. A good example of that would be in Rev 13 where the beast out of the sea gives power to the beast out of the land, but that's another topic.

 

[for_his_glory]

You can't change what a prophecy is. Prophecy is nothing more than an accurate prediction of something to happen in the future, which is what vs 19 is. Saying it was a confirmation means it would have had to have been said before, of which none of verse 19 was. The word moreover is used, that means something is being added.

God works in the supernatural of His heavenly realm. Satan also works in his own supernatural realm of darkness and what this familar spirit told Saul was fortune telling/soothsaying, not prophecy given by God. Occult powers use fortune telling as to seal one's fate as it is only concerned with one specific person. Prophecy is the will of God and conditional in that which He wants to have fulfilled according to His plans working through others as it can be tested by His Holy Spirit.

 

[Northman]

If someone is not answering you is that not the same things as not speaking to you. I am adding nothing there. Silence is silence.

You have backpedaled and modified this one too much. In the beginning the entire thing was about you saying that 1 Samuel 28:6 included more than what it plainly says. You said "all communication", that was what was contested, nothing more. Don't try and make it to be anything else.

This medium/witch did not have the power to raise anyone from the dead.

And absolutely nobody claimed she could. What are you on about here?

Our problem is what we believe a medium with a familar spirit is and what a familar spirit is capable of as I have been explaining.

It's not really our problem, it's just yours. What you say a familiar spirit is capable of doing assumes that all you have to say is true. Seeing as you aren't an expert, why accept what you say they can do?

Hosea 4: 6, 7 is exactly what Saul did in rejecting the word of God and walked in his own path rejecting God's commands about Amalek. His shame grew even more when he sought out a medium with a familar spirit.

Can you answer why this was even brought into the conversation? It's clear in the Bible exactly when Saul started to decrease, the judgement of the kingdom being taken and the Holy Spirit leaving him. I don't read anything about Saul being ashamed or his shame growing. Do you understand that you are saying the plain words that Saul's shame grew without there actually being a reference to that? I know this isn't a debate forum anymore but that sort of thing is still called begging the question or circular reasoning. It's the idea that something is first true and then you use it as evidence for itself.

God works in the supernatural of His heavenly realm. Satan also works in his own supernatural realm of darkness and what this familar spirit told Saul was fortune telling/soothsaying, not prophecy given by God. Occult powers use fortune telling as to seal one's fate as it is only concerned with one specific person.

Again with this talk of realms. Where are you getting this?
Fortune telling/soothsaying is called divination, aka fake prophecy. Nothing in verse 19 was fake. Not only was it not fake, it concerned more than one person, as in the entire nation of Israel.

I already gave you those scriptures in Mark and Ephesians of what demons are capable of and who controls them.

And none of those are called out as familiar spirits. You are quoting scripture that speaks of them having varying levels of rank and power and yet attribute to all of them the same powers by the words you speak.

Prophecy is the will of God and conditional in that which He wants to have fulfilled according to His plans working through others as it can be tested by His Holy Spirit.

No. Absolutely not. Not with any spin or in any culture. From the actual dictionary....
prophecy
noun

proph·e·cy | \ˈprä-fə-sē \
variants: or less commonly prophesy
plural prophecies also prophesies
Definition of prophecy

1: an inspired utterance of a prophet
2: the function or vocation of a prophet
specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose
3: a prediction of something to come

When dealing with scriptures that talk about what we understand to be familiar spirits, we are given loads and loads of "don't touch". Nothing is said on how they operate and next to nothing is said on what they can actually do, excepting their basic description. Isaiah 8:19 explains itself. Mediums and/or necromancers do a specific thing. They inquire of the dead. Now you have said a great many things about what they can do, up to and including take the form of a prophet and tell the future, of which there is absolutely no scripture to back up. It's all your own musing that is being presented as fact when none of it is. I'm actually surprised at the level of tooth and nail this has gone to for you to be right and what we read in the Bible to be wrong.

 

[for_his_glory]

Northman

We are many pages into this and yet we are not going to see eye to eye and I don't have anymore to give that I haven't already given. It's time to move on and we will just believe how we will.

God bless and you have a great day.