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FATE VS FREE WILL

JesusBoy86

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Tell us what you believe!

The seed has been planted in my heart! I believe that we have free will which in turn is our fate.
Do you believe one way or the other?
I believe in Fate so much so that it comes down to the very moment you wake up everyday to the very moment you go to bed. I believe our whole lives are predestined and everything that happens to us, the good the bad and the ugly, is all a package God wrote in his Book long ago.
"is there anything of which can be said this is new? It has already been here in ancient times before us."

TELL US WHAT YOU THINK
Can you come up with bible verses?
 
B

Brother Mike

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Tell us what you believe!

The seed has been planted in my heart! I believe that we have free will which in turn is our fate.
Do you believe one way or the other?
I believe in Fate so much so that it comes down to the very moment you wake up everyday to the very moment you go to bed. I believe our whole lives are predestined and everything that happens to us, the good the bad and the ugly, is all a package God wrote in his Book long ago.
"is there anything of which can be said this is new? It has already been here in ancient times before us."

TELL US WHAT YOU THINK
Can you come up with bible verses?
I can promise, folks can come up with more scripture than you can shake a stick at concerning predestination around here.

I don't feel like getting in another election type thing, these discussion get old after a few years.

However, I am interested how you can reconcile free will, with being fate? I never heard it quit mentioned like that before.
 

JesusBoy86

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Sorry Mike, I probably should read more of the forums before I post.
Anyway, very briefly, I believe that our every action (free will) is known and predestined by God.
So even though it is our free will... :)
 
B

Brother Mike

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Sorry Mike, I probably should read more of the forums before I post.
Anyway, very briefly, I believe that our every action (free will) is known and predestined by God.
So even though it is our free will... :)
OK, so more like Armininism, and not Calvinism. Are you well versed in those two Doctrines? You better be posting stuff like that around here.

I am still a bit confused on how it's free will, if God already planned it anyway. Sort of sounds like you want the best of both worlds here.

Calvinist believe God creates those to be roasted in hell and God makes those who won't have to roast in hell. Man has no free will. If they get sick, God already planned that. I am not so sure they go as far as to what color tooth brush you picked in 1984.

Armininism believes man has a free will, but the Sovereignty of God is kept by God knowing what choices that man will make. Man has free will, but God knows what those choices will be.

Molinism believes God gives man free will, unless man is about to do something to alter a time line God does not want. God then intervene's so that the time line is the way he planned it, otherwise man is free to do what he wants as long as it does not cross over into God's plan for the man and change the time lines. God knows the outcome of all alternate realities, and gets involved only if a reality is not what God wanted.

If you have come up with a new one, we should at least name it after you, right? Might as well get the credit and create that Wiki page with your name.

Blessings.
 

JesusBoy86

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Thanks Mike, Wow! I sure learned a lot just now. I'll keep all of those in mind!
What do you believe? Which of these bring you hope?
 
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Brother Mike

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Thanks Mike, Wow! I sure learned a lot just now. I'll keep all of those in mind!
What do you believe? Which of these bring you hope?
I don't buy into any of it. All mans Doctrines.

If God told Israel that I am giving you the promise land, but by his divine foreknowledge knew they would never make it, then God is a liar.

I can fill the page up with lots of scriptural contradictions all these doctrines of man presents against God.

However, some here hold onto their precious doctrine, despite the mounds of scriptures against them. I am not very popular when it comes to these doctrines.

Be bless though, and keep on in the Word.
 

Deborah13

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Sorry Mike, I probably should read more of the forums before I post.
Anyway, very briefly, I believe that our every action (free will) is known and predestined by God.
So even though it is our free will... :)
It would be helpful if you would post scripture. If this is just your opinion that is fine, too. There just isn't anyway to see what the foundation of your faith is, without scripture as the foundation.
 

Allen Wynne

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Hi, this is a most interesting conversation.
I think Arminianism is the closest to how I believe but it takes a deep study to understand all that it involves.
Even Arminius himself stated that some of his proposed doctrines need more Scriptural backing.
Now about John Wesley.
You can knock down Arminianism but I bet it would have been tough debating him about it.
 
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Brother Mike

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Hi, this is a most interesting conversation.
I think Arminianism is the closest to how I believe but it takes a deep study to understand all that it involves.
Even Arminius himself stated that some of his proposed doctrines need more Scriptural backing.
Now about John Wesley.
You can knock down Arminianism but I bet it would have been tough debating him about it.
These doctrines where made without bible study programs and parts of what people could obtain of the bible, and No strongs concordance. Not bad doctrines with what they were working with. I think we have the tools to do better though.
 

JoJoe

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Sorry Mike, I probably should read more of the forums before I post.
Anyway, very briefly, I believe that our every action (free will) is known and predestined by God.
So even though it is our free will... :)
Deborah13 is right, maybe these might of helped. (Eph. 1:11, 1 John 3:20)

People seem to make the word fate more then it really is. Some say it takes away will but, that couldn't be any more wrong. Fate is just the predermination if our will, choices, ect...

God is all knowing!
Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.

1 John 3:19-20
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

1 Samuel 2:3
Talk no more so very proudly,
let not arrogance come from your mouth;
for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So to say he doesn't know our choices before we do them is wrong... Well I will let everyone decide for themselves and if its wrong then let God be the teacher and not men.
 
B

Brother Mike

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Deborah13 is right, maybe these might of helped. (Eph. 1:11, 1 John 3:20)

People seem to make the word fate more then it really is. Some say it takes away will but, that couldn't be any more wrong. Fate is just the predermination if our will, choices, ect...

God is all knowing!
Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.

1 John 3:19-20
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

1 Samuel 2:3
Talk no more so very proudly,
let not arrogance come from your mouth;
for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So to say he doesn't know our choices before we do them is wrong... Well I will let everyone decide for themselves and if its wrong then let God be the teacher and not men.
Most the scriptures you posted are not related to fate, and God just knowing something is not fate. Fate would be more Election, Predestination. Foreknowledge or knowing opposes that doctrine.
How does God know what choice we are about to make? Would God know what choice we might make say 10 years from now?
 

JoJoe

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Most the scriptures you posted are not related to fate, and God just knowing something is not fate. Fate would be more Election, Predestination. Foreknowledge or knowing opposes that doctrine.
How does God know what choice we are about to make? Would God know what choice we might make say 10 years from now?
20/20

Your correct those are scriptures that God is omniscient (all knowing). Like I said, scriptures are interpreted differently.
 
B

Brother Mike

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20/20

Your correct those are scriptures that God is omniscient (all knowing). Like I said, scriptures are interpreted differently.
Hey JoJoe, I have been doing the election V.S Foreknowledge thing for years, been through all those scriptures you gave over and over.
I am sorry, your doing a fine Job, and to get you to see how God works, it would take ripping apart some ideas you have picked up through the years from others. A big task, for sure.

I'll give you a bit on it. If your interest, then go study it and ask God yourself. You can ask me also.

God Knows, because God causes:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
(Isa 55:11)

From the Ass and colt tied up Jesus had sent for, to Revelation, if God speaks something, it's coming to pass. This is not God knowing, this is God speaking and causing. He upholds all things by the Word of His power.

What God knows Now:
Hair on your head, number of stars (He should he made them) Number of flies in your house. (I counted two in mine) God's ability to gain immediate knowledge on anything is apparent in scriptures.

What does God not know
Keep in mind, God is not tracking everything. Lots of things happen, that the Lord is not aware of, or even cares to know. Things that get his attention, he check it out.

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)

Study out cries, cry in scripture:
God hears the cry of things, in this case the cry of sin from Sodom. God said he would go and look to see if the sin was matching the cry He heard in heaven.

God knows the heart:
The scripture you posted, God knows all things about the heart, our intentions, our true thinkings. We can't con God or BS him. It's the heart of man that God knows about a man.

1Ch_28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Psa_44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Jer_17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

God gives to us according to our heart and ways. Not some foreknowledge, or some predestination. By what we do, and the condition of our heart. The heart can change on God for good or bad. This is what God looks at though.

The good news is...............
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
(Jer 29:11)

God is not harboring foreknowledge that your not going to make it. He believes you will and only thinks the best of everyone.

Abraham:
For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
(Gen 18:19)

How does God know Abraham will? He personally knew Abraham. Not some foreknowledge, not some predestination.

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:6-9)

Notice Jesus did not say that by some foreknowledge He knew the tree would make it or not make it. It was according to the tree's heart if the tree was going to make it.
Notice the tree was given help, though it did not produce fruit, hoping it would make it?

How does God know what we will be doing in the future if He only knows our heart and what we have done?
This is also told to us in scripture, but I gave you more than enough to digest.

JoJoe, My hope for you is that you avoid the confused doctrines of men, and stick to the eternal Word only. Even I find from time to time some doctrine I just believed stuck in me, and it irritates me. Even from my own camp, but I need scripture to back up everything.

Blessings JoJoe.

Mike
 

Mike

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I struggled with this for years; just beat my head over it. Both doctrines had scripture to support them and made sense on one level, but both seemed impossible to reconcile for me. One day I was reading John 17 for the ### time. I can't explain why, but verse 9 stood out like never before and had me on hold for the longest time.

To paraphrase, Jesus was praying to the Father and said He was not praying for the whole world, but the ones the Father gave Him; that they were His. The implication is that some are not. I couldn't get past that verse. No doctrine should be based on one singular verse, but this one went a long way in settling many others that support election.

I won't debate it on line, but I do find amicable conversations on it fascinating. I've been asked why we need to share the Gospel if everyone is predestined, and I have just two simple responses. Because we're called to, and because there is infinite value in being in Christ today.

Just my two cents.
 

Allen Wynne

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I struggled with this for years; just beat my head over it. Both doctrines had scripture to support them and made sense on one level, but both seemed impossible to reconcile for me. One day I was reading John 17 for the ### time. I can't explain why, but verse 9 stood out like never before and had me on hold for the longest time.

To paraphrase, Jesus was praying to the Father and said He was not praying for the whole world, but the ones the Father gave Him; that they were His. The implication is that some are not. I couldn't get past that verse. No doctrine should be based on one singular verse, but this one went a long way in settling many others that support election.

I won't debate it on line, but I do find amicable conversations on it fascinating. I've been asked why we need to share the Gospel if everyone is predestined, and I have just two simple responses. Because we're called to, and because there is infinite value in being in Christ today.

Just my two cents.
Hi Mike, I'm a bit confused about your problem with John 17:9.
It should be clear that he was praying for his disciples at the time and no one else.
Not til verse 20 did he pray for all others who would believe.

This verse should not be used to support someone's controversial doctrine.
It is a prayer, it is intercession on Jesus' behalf.
It is a historical writing of Jesus consecrating his disciples to lead the church after he leaves the earth.
There is no indication that he was saying anything else.
 
B

Brother Mike

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I struggled with this for years; just beat my head over it. Both doctrines had scripture to support them and made sense on one level, but both seemed impossible to reconcile for me. One day I was reading John 17 for the ### time. I can't explain why, but verse 9 stood out like never before and had me on hold for the longest time.

To paraphrase, Jesus was praying to the Father and said He was not praying for the whole world, but the ones the Father gave Him; that they were His. The implication is that some are not. I couldn't get past that verse. No doctrine should be based on one singular verse, but this one went a long way in settling many others that support election.

I won't debate it on line, but I do find amicable conversations on it fascinating. I've been asked why we need to share the Gospel if everyone is predestined, and I have just two simple responses. Because we're called to, and because there is infinite value in being in Christ today.

Just my two cents.
Certainly Jesus was praying for the ones chosen and picked to be with him. Not everyone is called to be in a speaking position, some called as lawyers, doctors, and so on.

Keep in mind, Jesus also asked the rich young ruler to also follow him. He could have been Judas replacement, could have done lots of great things, but he choose to walk away. That pretty much disqualifies the predestination theory.

However, Jesus did not stop praying at verse 9.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
(Joh 17:20)

So, Jesus Prayer was not for others in the World, but if You believed on the Word of his disciples, like Peter, and Paul then He also prayed for you. You get picked for believing on their Word and that is also not predestination.

be blessed.
 

JesusBoy86

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Well if we are indeed still on the question of Fate and Free will...
To clarify why I believe in our free will becoming our fate, I give you this example:
You wake up in the morning and you sit in front of the stove and you are deciding whether or not to eat a banana. Should I eat the banana or not. I believe that God knows the "outcome" this word is key! God knows the outcome!..of either and both choices. Thus our free will becoming our fate.
 

childeye

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Interesting discussion. I would like to put in my two cents before this thread violates tos by not enough scripture being posted.
The problem is the term free will implies a will free from any restraining factors such as fate or divine force. Hence according to that definition, free will is incompatible with fate. However we are in time, as Einstein has proven. Fate is inevitable and this is why prophecy is able to predict future events in scripture. I propose that free will is an equivocation, an ambiguous term when applied in a moral purview. 1 John 3:10.
 

Obadiah

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As a reminder to all, this thread has now been moved into the A&T forum so the specific rules and guidelines of the A&T forum now apply to all subsequent posts. Please take a few seconds to review the specific guidelines posted here. Thanks.
 

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