FATE VS FREE WILL

[Obadiah]

Ok, several posts in the last day or so were in violation of not complying with either A&T guidelines or ToS sections and were edited or deleted for this reason. Sadly, this triggered the deletion of many well thought out posts that were responses to these no longer existing posts. This could all have been avoided if people would just follow the simple guidelines we have in place here as many members have been advised over and over to do!

So, I guess the only thing left to do is start over. I'm re-opening the thread and we will see how this goes. Thanks.

 

[smaller]

Eph. 1
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Is the supposed "free" will excluded from vs. 11 above? It would seem that "all things" are worked after the counsel of Gods Will.

Matt. 10:
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Does Jesus do what He said in Matt. 10 above? Does the Will of Jesus set "man" at variance? Or does the supposed freewill of "man" set himself at variance? If Jesus is working in this regards, then the will of the man will be subject to Jesus in this intended variance, and Jesus makes foes. Enemies.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Does the Lord make the wicked? It would appear to be so.

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Did all these masses of evil people really do the will of God? Or was Jesus executed by a completely random series of events carried out by the accidental coalition and conjunction of ALL of these supposed freewills, thereby orchestrating the death of Jesus?

Unlikely.

There is a primary principle that was, is and remains to this day operational upon the earth by the Will of God in Christ, and it is this:

Where the Word is sown, resistance is sure to follow. Guaranteed no less, by God to happen and transpire.

This is the Will of God, with a Divine Guarantee attached:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

When any person picks up the Word of God, Jesus has guaranteed that "resistance" will surely follow. Are any of these actions then actions of freewill, or rather actions of Divine Promise which provoke Satan to resist "in man's will?"

Jesus, to His disciples, and yes, only they have been called to "hear and understand," has revealed the operational principle here that drives the EVIL world to this day. Those who can not hear Jesus will not understand for any reason, because of this operational principle. It is not the freewill of any man who resists Gods Words. It is the entrance of a foreign agent of EVIL into their own hearts that STOPS THEM DEAD in their tracks and they can not hear. And that is exactly Gods Intentions.

When any of us do hear, it is in fact a miracle from Above, not caused by our own "freewill" but of the Will of Him that allows this to be seen, heard and perceived in "real time" today.

The Word, Jesus, is Alive, today, still working these operational principles and will prove it to any believer who hears Him in "real time."

How so you ask? Paul demonstrates the "internal actions" of the deceiver in himself in Romans 7, here, proving, openly, that the presence of indwelling SIN reacts internally, adversely, to the WORD OF GOD, the LAW:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Does any of that really smack of "freewill?" Uh, no. There is a Divine Guarantee that the presence of indwelling sin WILL react adversely to the Word of God every time just like "evil clockwork."

Evil 'rises' in internal resistance and adverse fashions to the COMMAND, the LAWs of God.

And this principle is demonstrated throughout the scriptures. There is no "freewill" that can prevail against this system, that God Himself has created. And further, God USES this principle to PROVE HIMSELF today to all of His disciples who HEAR Him.

The person who claims "freewill" does not and can not understand this principle nor will they concede to the principle, nor can they even hear of it because of the principle, and they will, on cue RESIST to hear, according to the Will of God.

 

[john darling]

Hi smaller. I think with all these Bible verses we need to look at how they work together. As it is now, they are posted as though they work against the verses which others have posted. I'll try to exaplain my understanding of why I think the verses you posted do not work against free will in the same way you've interpreted them.

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Is the supposed "free" will excluded from vs. 11 above? It would seem that "all things" are worked after the counsel of Gods Will.

We are predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will. He says "we". Who is "we"? Christians. Who are the Christians? Anyone who follows Jesus. Otherwise it would make no sense to say, "whosoever" in John 3:16. We are not predestined to be saved or lost. We are predestined according to God's purpose, just as the verse says. His purpose is to teach humanity how to be more like him. Look carefully at this verse (John 4:23); "the Father seeks such to worship him". He seeks them. God has a desire for creatures who understand his goodness, not because they are forced to but because they choose to.

We've been given a "sound mind" (2 Tim 1:7) and the ability to reason with God (Isaiah 1:18-20). So, your example does not say that God's will overrides man's will. It simply states the obvious; although man has a will to choose or reject God, that choice is still a part of God's will (Joshua 24:15). It is not that God wants man to reject him, but that he allows man to make that choice.

Matt. 10:
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Does Jesus do what He said in Matt. 10 above? Does the Will of Jesus set "man" at variance?

Jesus wants people to follow God; not be at variance against one another (Matthew 11:28, John 1:7). However, "variance" is unavoidable with freewill. Jesus recognized that, as a part of freewill, not everyone will choose to follow God (Matthew 13:14-15). Their heart has "waxed gross". These people choose to close their eyes and ears. Jesus is complaining. He doesn't want them to be so stubborn, but he can't force them not to be. These are the kind of people who will be at variance with Jesus.

For example, someone will look at Jesus' teachings of forsaking materialism (Luke 14:33, Luke 18:22) and say, "this is what Jesus and his followers did (Luke 18:28) and it's what he wants us to do, too" while others will "go away sadly". They will be at variance against one another and it's Jesus' teaching which did it. Some instances of variance can be quite dramatic, even violent (John 16:2).

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Does the Lord make the wicked? It would appear to be so.

God made the opportunity for men to choose wickedness. This is what I mean about getting the spirit of the verse and understanding how it fits with the overall picture. To say that God literally forces some people to be wicked makes no sense in the context of everything else God says about obedience, a sound mind and reason (John 1:7).

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Did all these masses of evil people really do the will of God? Or was Jesus executed by a completely random series of events

Again, this needs balance. Jesus' death did not be the result of random events in order for men to still have free will. God did not force Judas to betray Jesus (Mark 14:21). God did not force Pilate to condemn Jesus. He tried to warn Pilate not to make an unjust judgment (Matthew 27:19). In all cases where people acted contrary to Jesus it was because he convicted them. He shone the light on all their various problems. Some people moved closer to the light and some moved away from the light (John 3:19-21).

As for the phrase "determined before to be done", God exists outside of time. To him the past, present and future are all the same. He moves back and forth through time as he chooses. This allows people to have freewill while at the same time he alreaady knows every choice they will make (Isaiah 46:10).

So, my interpretation of how these various apparently contradictory verses work together is that while man has a will and freedom to choose or reject God, God also has a will and while he does not override man's will, he does guide and influence the path of man. For example, God set up the circumstances through which Jesus would come into the world, but man still has the choice to accept or reject Jesus (Isaiah 46:12-13). Influence and choice. In this context God has done "whatsoever his hand and his counsel determined before to be done" while men still have free will.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

When any person picks up the Word of God, Jesus has guaranteed that "resistance" will surely follow. Are any of these actions then actions of freewill, or rather actions of Divine Promise which provoke Satan to resist "in man's will?"

You've taken one part of a parable and built a doctrine around it, suggesting that it is God's will that Satan takes his words away from people. This interpretation makes no sense when compared to other verses about God wanting all men to be saved. A more reconciled interpretation is that God allows Satan the freedom to influence people, usually through all their various problems like fear, greed, pride etc. Satan comes along and tempts them and when they give in to the temptation he successfully "takes away" the seed which was sown in their heart.

The parable goes on to talk about a variety of seeds, precisely because there is so much choice. There are seeds which fall on stony ground, seeds which fall among thorns, and seeds which fall on good soil, all indicating the various choices people make when they are confronted with the truth of Jesus' words (Matthew 13:5-8).

As for using parables, Jesus said over and over again, "he who has ears, let him hear", including this very same parable. In other words, "there is a message contained in this parable; think about it". He wants people to hear (Matthew 13:9). The fact that he uses parables shows that he wants people to reason through the lessons and show a desire for understanding.

It is not the freewill of any man who resists Gods Words. It is the entrance of a foreign agent of EVIL into their own hearts that STOPS THEM DEAD in their tracks and they can not hear. And that is exactly Gods Intentions.

And yet we have the ability to resist that foreign agent. (James 4:7) It is a choice we make. God does not intention that people will reject him. He gives them the freedom to do it. That freedom comes with consequences, sure, and that freedom is expressed within the framework that God sets up, but it's still freedom within those criteria.

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now since this has become quite long already.

 

[smaller]

Hi smaller. I think with all these Bible verses we need to look at how they work together. As it is now, they are posted as though they work against the verses which others have posted.

There is another principle that works with scriptures. People see what they want to see. Hebrews 4:12

Because of our state of extremely limited sight, perhaps better defined as the state of "subjectivity" it is unlikely that everyone will see identically. So I don't expect that to happen. Each person is unique, and I respect that. It is impossible for everyone to see identically.

As to Gods Word, it can not be against itself. There are many who take on positions that are easily proven to be false by other statements from the scriptures. I've given examples of these at this board in the past. Some say God can not lie, but, God is clearly implicated in sending a lying spirit to the prophets. (1 Kings 22:23) Some say God is not the author of confusion. Yet God confused the language of the people at the tower of Babel. (Genesis 11) Some say God tempts no man. Yet God tempted Abraham. (Genesis 22:1)

I could go on, but you may get the point. I believe there are credible scriptural reasons for these types of contrasts and apparent conflicting statements. And of course none of the above is friendly to "freewill" sights.

I'll try to exaplain my understanding of why I think the verses you posted do not work against free will in the same way you've interpreted them.

We are predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will. He says "we". Who is "we"? Christians.

I generally reject any analysis that isolates God Word and makes same only applicable to the persons or nation spoken to or limits His Word to a restriction in time, and do so on the basis of Jesus' statements of fact in Luke 4:4 and Matt. 4:4, that "man," meaning all of us, shall live by every Word of God. I take that statement from Jesus very seriously.

Who are the Christians? Anyone who follows Jesus. Otherwise it would make no sense to say, "whosoever" in John 3:16. We are not predestined to be saved or lost. We are predestined according to God's purpose, just as the verse says. His purpose is to teach humanity how to be more like him. Look carefully at this verse (John 4:23); "the Father seeks such to worship him". He seeks them. God has a desire for creatures who understand his goodness, not because they are forced to but because they choose to.

Most freewillers suffer under the delusion that God is in need of their choice. I find that an unsupportable posture myself, for many sound reasons. One for example would be Saul being struck blind by God in Christ on the road to Damascus. That is called "Divine Intervention." Could God do that with anyone? Sure. Would that mean that anyone so struck had freewill? Uh, no. I might also point in the inverse senses to everyone who came out of Egypt. Even though they ALL saw the miracles, every last one of them over the age of 20 except for 2 people, Joshua and Caleb died in the desert because of unbelief. Does THAT show freewill? Again, no.

There are other ways of seeing these matters that are more credible. And no, God is not a God in "need" of anything of man. Nor do we get rewarded by God from the good things that we do that we think falsely are of ourselves. God is involved in some way in all events, either on the good side of the ledgers or the bad, if by nothing else, omission, and in many cases, direct commission and intervention.

There is, in short, a Far Superior Player on the board of Life.

We've been given a "sound mind" (2 Tim 1:7) and the ability to reason with God (Isaiah 1:18-20). So, your example does not say that God's will overrides man's will. It simply states the obvious; although man has a will to choose or reject God, that choice is still a part of God's will (Joshua 24:15). It is not that God wants man to reject him, but that he allows man to make that choice.

And you make that conclusion by removing God from the action. I can't find that credible in any way. God is fully implicated in everything in His creation. (Rev. 4:11)

Jesus wants people to follow God;

Again, no. God Himself bound all people to the spirit of disobedience.

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We, prior to belief, were also essentially "bound" by Satan, the god of this world, who blinded our minds prior to belief.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (see also 2 Cor. 4:4 for the identical example)

God purposefully blinded an entire nation of people, the Jews, in unbelief, in behalf of us, the gentiles. (see the entire chapter of Romans 11)

I once thought the freewill postures were accurate too, until I saw the above, and had to cast it aside in favor of Divine Superiority. It was a phony posture that was sold to me by false christian religious postures.

We left off our conversation at the points above prior. You may believe what you want. I simply do not find freewill anywhere close to the arena of scriptural credibility for all the reasons I gave you prior. The position can not address these matters credibly.

Freewill postures have reduced God down to a petty sales pitch peddler, imho.

I'd leave off this conversation right here, but I want to address this one more time.

You've taken one part of a parable and built a doctrine around it,

I believe that the study of parables, allegories and similitudes are the only credible approach to understanding scriptures.

For example, Jesus tells us "how" His Word Is:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Read that long and hard. Correspond it to, for example, Psalm 78:1-2 and Hosea 12:10 in particular, where God shows that He spoke through and to the prophets by similitude.

Paul for example dissected the entire lives of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael and the LAW as an allegory in Galatians 4, which is the basis of the entirety of Christian understanding.

So, yeah, I have GREAT respect for the legitimate studies of parables and allegories for the above reasons and consider it the only valid approach to the subject matter. I've also spent 30 plus years studying every position and posture from every christian angle in this arena available, so I've been around the block on the subject matters.

I bow to the understandings of the PARABLE/ALLEGORY, as Gods Ways.

suggesting that it is God's will that Satan takes his words away from people.

We have no less than 3 Gospel writers who present exactly that position.

I consider that believers who DON'T get it are a victim of the reality of the parable. And further, that they, by their own supposed freewill, can't see it, get it, understand it or take it personally. And will not unless God Himself DRAWS them into it. Til then there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help, but to expound and pronounce these matters IN HOPE.

So there you have it.

 

[john darling]

I could go on, but you may get the point. I believe there are credible scriptural reasons for these types of contrasts and apparent conflicting statements.

Yes I agree there are credible explanations for apparently contradictory verses in the Bible. But the reason I brought it up was because I'm not seeing those credible explanations from you to support your position. For example, you quoted Romans 11:32, but you did not give any explanation on how your interpretation of that verse (i.e. that God forces some to be lost while some saved) reconciles with these other verses; John 3:16 the use of "whosoever". John 4:23 "the father seeks these kinds of people". 2 Timothy 1:7 and Isaiah 1:18-20 We've been given a sound mind and the ability to reason (i.e. God actually asks us to reason with him). Joshua 24:15 "choose this day who you will serve".

I posted all those verses, along with my understanding of how they reconcile to your verse from Romans 11:32 so that there was no contradiction. Can you please explain how you see these verses reconciling with the idea that humans do not have the God-given ability to choose to serve God or reject God?

Most freewillers suffer under the delusion that God is in need of their choice.

I don't think God needs us. I think he wants us.

Even though they ALL saw the miracles, every last one of them over the age of 20 except for 2 people, Joshua and Caleb died in the desert because of unbelief. Does THAT show freewill? Again, no.

They died in the wilderness as a punishment, right? Because of their unbelief, or disobedience? How could they be punished if they had no choice in their unbelief?

They died in the wilderness as a punishment, right? Because of their unbelief, or disobedience? How could they be punished if they had no choice in their unbelief?

Nor do we get rewarded by God from the good things that we do that we think falsely are of ourselves.

This is another of those areas where some explanation on how the apparently contradictory verses reconcile would be helpful. You say God does not reward for the things we falsely think we do. But what about the things we actually do? The whole point of a reward is to encourage or act as a specific kind of behavior. Why should we be rewarded for behavior which we do not choose? Hebrews 11:6 comes to mind; "God rewards those who diligently seek him". To me, this teaching is pretty clear that we have a choice to seek after God. It's very similar to an earlier verse I posted where Jesus says, "God seeks these kind of people to worship him" (John 4:23). What you are teaching is quite nearly the opposite of what these verses say, so I'm wondering how you reconcile them with your position.

And you make that conclusion by removing God from the action. I can't find that credible in any way. God is fully implicated in everything in His creation. (Rev. 4:11)

I don't understand you conclusion. Free will doesn't remove God from the situation. Free will is God-given. Our choices do not make God cease to exist. Even if we choose to reject God, we are still doing so within his universe and within the context of the consequences he sets. Remember your example about the children of Israel dying in the wilderness becuase of their disobedience? Their choice did not remove God; they suffered the consequences of their choices.

Again, no. God Himself bound all people to the spirit of disobedience.

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

What version of the Bible are you reading? The KJV says "God has concluded everyone under unbelief". "Bound" and "conclude" have two verrrry different meanings in this context. God's conclusion, by looking ahead at the behavior of every human to ever exist, is that they would all make choices contrary to his will at some point in their lives. That is quite different from God forcing people to act contrary to his will.

By the way, I think you need MUCH stronger support that this one verse if your conclusion is that Jesus wants some people to disobey God, which seems to be what you are saying.

Anyway, I need to go so this is probably enough for now.

 

[john darling]

Oops, I just realized the first paragraph of my above post was meant to be in response to your reference to Ephesians 1:11, not Romans 11:32. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[smaller]

Yes I agree there are credible explanations for apparently contradictory verses in the Bible. But the reason I brought it up was because I'm not seeing those credible explanations from you to support your position.

I brought up the point of contradictions for a couple of reasons. First, when anyone takes on any particular position, such as "God can not lie" and we can observe scriptures where God is implicated in sending lying spirits to the prophets, some will see that those who say that God can not lie are not getting a full picture. So, their stand is weak. And that means there are other avenues, Divinely Appointed in these conflicting statements to direct our attentions to, rather than stall in a weak spot. I have found that most of these can be remedied by looking at how God engages the devil and his messengers, and it's quite an entirely different story that emerges about Gods Dealings when those parties are on the table for viewing. And further, since the Gospel accounts are filled with these parties overlapping mankind, any understanding that does not take this fact into account is even more weak, as such sights are mancentric, and quite hollow and void of the bigger picture. This is where freewill really drops the theological ball. The position just can't get over some factual hurdles.

And even further, I credit that to the real present working of God, in adverse manners, intentional. For example, a person can point to these examples and a vehement adherent can get locked into their one sided views even moreso. So I find that somewhat fascinating, on the adverse side of the ledgers. A believer who does not have the honest sights that the tempter does deal with us, internally by temptations, is simply not honest. Not saying this is personal to you. But when we see this matter factually, the notion of freewill should rightfully fly out the door on it's ear. Yet people cling to it as if it has some value, when compared to honesty, it doesn't.

This does happen: Mark 4:15. And it happens to all of us. Why don't we all be big boyz and fess up? That's what Paul did. And this exercise marks those who engage honestly as opposed to those who might not. I've cited many times now, Paul's statements about the adversity that transpired in him from indwelling sin, which Paul himself had no control over, in Romans 7. Yet legalists will still insist that they are legally compliant, even in the face of Paul's statements to the contrary, such as in 1 Tim. 1:15.

And one might even think that if a will was truly free in any kind of a sense, from a believers perspective it could at a minimum, speak honestly about temptations and them being of an agent, not us, operating internally.

When we observe what I might call "classic christian positions" such as salvation by Grace Alone through faith in Christ, don't we think Paul saw the futility of claiming the "evil present with him," Romans 7:21, as legally obedient? And wouldn't that same fact pretty much solidify all our righteousness as being of the "filthy rag" type?

And even further my friend, when you see things like the "god of this world" blinds the minds of the unbeliever, why would you not pity them for that captivity and seek to share Christ with them, rather than blame and accuse their freewill? Freewill? For a mind slave of Satan? 2 Cor. 4:4. Never happened.

For example, you quoted Romans 11:32, but you did not give any explanation on how your interpretation of that verse (i.e. that God forces some to be lost while some saved) reconciles with these other verses; John 3:16 the use of "whosoever". John 4:23 "the father seeks these kinds of people". 2 Timothy 1:7 and Isaiah 1:18-20 We've been given a sound mind and the ability to reason (i.e. God actually asks us to reason with him). Joshua 24:15 "choose this day who you will serve".

I gave examples where God effectively blinded an entire nation of people over multiple generations precisely in behalf of US. We might even learn to appreciate that fact. Romans 11. And yes, it was God who did this, Romans 11:8, and wrote about it LONG before it transpired. Isaiah 6:10

Have even gave the example of supposed "freewill" with all the people involved with the death of Christ on the cross. Are we to believe all of that was just a random event of accidents where all these supposed "freewill's" came together and precisely executed the Plan of God with Christ? That is so ridiculous it makes me laugh. No, God Himself directed every last one of them to DO HIS WILL.

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

These things were written of long before any of these supposed "freewill" agents even existed.

I posted all those verses, along with my understanding of how they reconcile to your verse from Romans 11:32 so that there was no contradiction. Can you please explain how you see these verses reconciling with the idea that humans do not have the God-given ability to choose to serve God or reject God?

Don't you see the circular logic there? If the will of the man was FREE of God's Imposition, then it's not FREE, but of God's Will.

There are 3 wills operational in/on the earth. Gods, man's and Satan's. And all of these can transpire in a SINGULAR individual. Only ONE of these Wills is Superior and able, above all others, and it ain't the last 2.

I don't think God needs us. I think he wants us.

And maybe God also wants to JUDGE SATAN? There are probably a lot more things going on with humanity than meets the common eye.

They died in the wilderness as a punishment, right? Because of their unbelief, or disobedience? How could they be punished if they had no choice in their unbelief?

They didn't have a choice to make because it was not just them involved. God and the blinding power of Satan upon their minds was also fully involved in these events. Were we to look at the "odds" of freewill satisfying God, with them as an example, we might as well abandon ship and play the lottery instead.

They died in the wilderness as a punishment, right? Because of their unbelief, or disobedience? How could they be punished if they had no choice in their unbelief?

Because there was another player on the board of their MINDS that was not them. Romans 11:8 is pretty clear about this, as is Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

No "freewill" is able to justify the evil present within them before God, or assuage God. Pre or Post belief. Our position resides entirely by His One Way Grace and Mercy, and not of ourselves.

 

[john darling]

Hi smaller. I can't see that you've addressed the verses I asked you to give an explanation for so I'm not sure where to go with this discussion anymore. Maybe next time.