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Father?

wondering

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It's a sign of respect for his office.



All Catholics are born again in their baptism.



The title Pontifex Maximus was given to the Pope by the Roman Emperor Gratius. Previous to that, from the time of Augustus it was a title of the Emperor. Previous to that it was the title of the chief pontiff in the Roman Republic. It was a priestly title. It was nothing to do with Babylon.

Vicarius Filii Dei is not a title of the Pope. It was invented by Seventh Day Adventists so that the letters in Latin numerals added up to 666.

Vicarius Christi is a title of the Pope. It means Vicar of Christ.
The Vicar of Christ means Christ’s earthly representative. It does not mean the Pope supplants Christ. When a person cannot physically be present somewhere he/she may send someone to represent them, to stand in their place. For example if the Queen of England is invited, as Head of State, to a function and cannot attend she will send someone to represent her; perhaps Prince Charles. This takes nothing away from her as Head of State. But Prince Charles will act in her place, under her authority, with whatever authority she has delegated to him.
Hi Mungo....
I agree with all of the above...very good info.

But I must disagree on one statement you've made.
You said :
All Catholics are born again in their baptism.

You must surely know this is not correct.
Do you believe ALL catholics are going to heaven?
 

HeIsRisen2018

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So if I'm understanding this correctly,.. Jesus meant that you shouldn't give any man the same respect you give to the Lord? And it doesn't matter what titles you give them? :confused
 

Boaz

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From your understanding, would you also include pastor, preacher, elder, deacon?

When I read the text I posted in my OP, there seems to be an underlying purpose. Jesus seemed to be addressing the haughtiness of the Pharisees and Scribes. Is it possible Jesus was addressing this along with the titles?

Just trying to look at this from multiple angles to better understand what the text is saying.
I think Jesus was addressing the haughiness of the Pharisees as well as their pride and hypocrisy. It is the use of father and its purpose in the CC that is unbiblical. Behind it hides haughtyness, pride, hypocrisy. It is a self appointed way of raising themselves above the people, often usurping authority even over the word of God. I find the title holy father assigned to mere men particularly repugnant. Father is the covenant title Jesus gave to believers.
 

for_his_glory

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First of all, I'm not catholic and can't believe you don't know this after so many years here. Because I know catholic doctrine and agree with some of it does not make me catholic. I left that church about 40 years ago....after some study of both.

Vicar means a representative of a Bishop.
Vicar of Christ means a representative of Christ... any pastor/teacher/priest is a vicar if we can understand it that way.
The Pope does not take the place of Christ (except in confession) but only represents Him.

Of course the Pope could be the head of the institutional church.
Can ANY corporation function without a President or CEO? No.
Any denominational church has a hierarchy...it must.

I found the following which explains in detail:

The Protestant writer Andreas Helwig suggested that Vicarius Filii Dei was an expansion of the historical title Vicarius Christi, rather than an official title used by the Popes themselves. His interpretation did not become common until about the time of the French Revolution.[7] Some later Protestant figures claimed that Vicarius Filii Dei was an official title of the Pope, with some saying that this title appeared on the papal tiara and/or a mitre.

Catholic apologists answer the Protestant claims by noting that Vicarius Filii Dei has never been an official Papal title.[8] Catholics answer the claims that "Vicarius Filii Dei" is written on the Papal Tiara by stating that a simple inspection of the more than 20 papal tiaras still in existence—including those in use in 1866 during the reign of Pope Pius IX when Uriah Smith made his claim—shows that none have this inscription, nor is there any evidence that any of the earlier papal tiaras destroyed by invading French troops in 1798 had it.
[8]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei


I don't understand the problem with calling a man that is responsible for the religious teachings and morality and spirituality of a community "father".

It just means teacher...just like Rabbi means teacher.
Jesus was called Rabbi out of respect for His knowledge.
In Mathew 23 He meant that we are to learn basically from the Holy Spirit that give us UNDERSTANDING more than teachings.

This would be what I agree with regarding Mathew 23:9:

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(9) Call no man your father.—This also, under its Hebrew form of Abba, was one of the titles in which the scribes delighted. In its true use it embodied the thought that the relation of scholars and teachers was filial on the one side, paternal on the other; but precisely because it expressed so noble an idea was its merely conventional use full of danger. The history of the ecclesiastical titles of Christendom offers in this respect a singular parallel to that of the titles of Judaism. In Abbot (derived from Abba=Father), in Papa and Pope (which have risen from their application to every priest, till they culminate in the Pontifex summus of the Church of Home), in our “Father in God,” as applied to Bishops, we find examples of the use of like language, liable to the same abuse. It would, of course, be a slavish literalism to see in our Lord’s words an absolute prohibition of these and like words in ecclesiastical or civil life. What was meant was to warn men against so recognising, in any case, the fatherhood of men as to forget the Fatherhood of God. Even the teacher and apostle, who is a father to others, needs to remember that he is as a “little child” in the relation to God. (Comp. St. Paul’s claim in 1Corinthians 4:15.)

In 1 Corinthians 4:15 Paul calls hmself a father.
15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Verse 14 states we are as children. Making the circle complete...
I knew you were not Catholic anymore as you have stated that a long time ago. The reason I tagged you into my post was to show you and @Mundo what I believe to be true compared to what you believe to be true. It matters that we disagree, but yet doesn't matter when I know I can not present what I would want to, but it would come against the ToS so that I will keep to myself.

We are good because you are my sister in Christ and that's all that matters even if we disagree :)
 

Mungo

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Hi Mungo....
I agree with all of the above...very good info.

But I must disagree on one statement you've made.
You said :
All Catholics are born again in their baptism.

You must surely know this is not correct.
Do you believe ALL catholics are going to heaven?
Being born again doesn't meant you are guaranteed to go to heaven. But this strays into OSAS which is banned so we had better leave it there. So no, I don't believe all Catholics go the heaven.
 

HeIsRisen2018

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I knew you were not Catholic anymore as you have stated that a long time ago. The reason I tagged you into my post was to show you and @Mundo what I believe to be true compared to what you believe to be true. It matters that we disagree, but yet doesn't matter when I know I can not present what I would want to, but it would come against the ToS so that I will keep to myself.

We are good because you are my sister in Christ and that's all that matters even if we disagree :)


That's wonderful, but it's Mungo not Mundo just so you know. :) Just think of Mungo Jerry lol! :lol
 

Boaz

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I am in agreement that we are not to take these titles for ourselves. That is what Jesus said in the text I posted in my OP from Matthew 23. It's interesting that He said that but also made a distinction not to call anyone on earth our father.

So how does that work when speaking of my dad?
Don't know but I have an opinion (of course I do). I don't think Jesus meant we should not refer to our earthly dad as father. Though it seems formal to me. Growing up we were instructed to not use father for the Biblical reason, and my father disliked dad so we had to call him daddy. And sir. He was born in 1906. A lot of respectful tradition in him.
 

for_his_glory

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It's a sign of respect for his office.



All Catholics are born again in their baptism.



The title Pontifex Maximus was given to the Pope by the Roman Emperor Gratius. Previous to that, from the time of Augustus it was a title of the Emperor. Previous to that it was the title of the chief pontiff in the Roman Republic. It was a priestly title. It was nothing to do with Babylon.

Vicarius Filii Dei is not a title of the Pope. It was invented by Seventh Day Adventists so that the letters in Latin numerals added up to 666.

Vicarius Christi is a title of the Pope. It means Vicar of Christ.
The Vicar of Christ means Christ’s earthly representative. It does not mean the Pope supplants Christ. When a person cannot physically be present somewhere he/she may send someone to represent them, to stand in their place. For example if the Queen of England is invited, as Head of State, to a function and cannot attend she will send someone to represent her; perhaps Prince Charles. This takes nothing away from her as Head of State. But Prince Charles will act in her place, under her authority, with whatever authority she has delegated to him.
So, we are to bow down and worship someone in respect of the office they hold and kiss their holy ring and call them "Holy Father"?

Let me ask you what makes the institution of the Roman Catholic church any different from any other denomination or even non-denominations?

Why are we not called to bow down and worship our appointed leaders in the church?

Why do Cardinals bow down an literally kiss the red papal shoes?

Why is Pope Francis the first ever Jesuit Pope when according to their laws a Pope can not come from the order of the Jesuits?

When scripture says to call no man your father upon the earth for one is your Father, which is in heaven, this does not mean to not call your own biological parents mom and dad. This means that anyone that is called by God as being equipped in the word of God and anointed and sealed by the Holy Spirit to be in charged of the church being the body of Christ under the leadership of Christ being the head of the church, not a Jesuit Priesthood, should not be held in higher esteem than our Father in heaven.

When the Pope calls himself "Holy Father" as being the supreme Pontifex Maximus and the Holy See that is the sovereign entity by international law in Vatican City and Priest, Cardinals and the congregation of the Roman Catholic church bow down and worship him this places the praise and worship upon a man and and takes it away from God.
 

for_his_glory

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So if I'm understanding this correctly,.. Jesus meant that you shouldn't give any man the same respect you give to the Lord? And it doesn't matter what titles you give them? :confused
In one word "yes".

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
 
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Boaz

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So, we are to bow down and worship someone in respect of the office they hold and kiss their holy ring and call them "Holy Father"?

Let me ask you what makes the institution of the Roman Catholic church any different from any other denomination or even non-denominations?

Why are we not called to bow down and worship our appointed leaders in the church?

Why do Cardinals bow down an literally kiss the red papal shoes?

Why is Pope Francis the first ever Jesuit Pope when according to their laws a Pope can not come from the order of the Jesuits?

When scripture says to call no man your father upon the earth for one is your Father, which is in heaven, this does not mean to not call your own biological parents mom and dad. This means that anyone that is called by God as being equipped in the word of God and anointed and sealed by the Holy Spirit to be in charged of the church being the body of Christ under the leadership of Christ being the head of the church, not a Jesuit Priesthood, should not be held in higher esteem than our Father in heaven.

When the Pope calls himself "Holy Father" as being the supreme Pontifex Maximus and the Holy See that is the sovereign entity by international law in Vatican City and Priest, Cardinals and the congregation of the Roman Catholic church bow down and worship him this places the praise and worship upon a man and and takes it away from God.
I'm quite positive the Bible instructs us to worship no man and what are the things FHG describes but worship? No matter how the RCC pr persons try and hide their intent, it's worship and self exalting, and talking the place of Jesus as our ONLY intermediary between God and man. Also, as a side note, He is our ONLY intercessor between us and God.
 

Mungo

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So, we are to bow down and worship someone in respect of the office they hold and kiss their holy ring and call them "Holy Father"?

Let me ask you what makes the institution of the Roman Catholic church any different from any other denomination or even non-denominations?

Why are we not called to bow down and worship our appointed leaders in the church?

Why do Cardinals bow down an literally kiss the red papal shoes?

Why is Pope Francis the first ever Jesuit Pope when according to their laws a Pope can not come from the order of the Jesuits?

When scripture says to call no man your father upon the earth for one is your Father, which is in heaven, this does not mean to not call your own biological parents mom and dad. This means that anyone that is called by God as being equipped in the word of God and anointed and sealed by the Holy Spirit to be in charged of the church being the body of Christ under the leadership of Christ being the head of the church, not a Jesuit Priesthood, should not be held in higher esteem than our Father in heaven.

When the Pope calls himself "Holy Father" as being the supreme Pontifex Maximus and the Holy See that is the sovereign entity by international law in Vatican City and Priest, Cardinals and the congregation of the Roman Catholic church bow down and worship him this places the praise and worship upon a man and and takes it away from God.
The Popes official titles are:
Bishop of Rome,
Vicar of Jesus Christ,
Successor of the Prince of the Apostles,
Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church,
Primate of Italy,
Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province,
Sovereign of the State of Vatican City,
Servant of the Servants of God.

Pontifex Maximus is not an official tirle.
No-one worships the Pope. That is ridiculous.
Bowing is sign of honour and respect not worship

We've covered Holy Father and "call no man father". If you haven't taken any notice before I don't think it's worth re-iterating what has been said already.
 

Mungo

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This site promotes politeness between Christian bothers and sisters.

The term RCC and Roman Catholic Church when referring to the Church led by Pope Francis is both incorrect and impolite.

The Church calls itself the Catholic Church (or if you want the rarely used formal title - The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church).

Adding the 'Roman' in front was a pejorative term used by the "reformers" at the Reformation.
 

Book Keeper

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This site promotes politeness between Christian bothers and sisters.

The term RCC and Roman Catholic Church when referring to the Church led by Pope Francis is both incorrect and impolite.

The Church calls itself the Catholic Church (or if you want the rarely used formal title - The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church).

Adding the 'Roman' in front was a pejorative term used by the "reformers" at the Reformation.
Roman is actually part of the categorization. The Roman Curia, the body for which the affairs of the Catholic church is administered, also know the church as the Roman Catholic Church. Its very traditional, and not widely used, however, it still is a name of the church under the Holy See legislature.

I'm sure no-one here are deliberately trying to cause offence.
 
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Mungo

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Roman is actually part of the categorization. The Roman Curia, the body for which the affairs of the Catholic church is administered, also know the church as the Roman Catholic Church. Its very traditional, and not widely used, however, it still is a name of the church under the Holy See legislature.

I'm sure no-one here are deliberately trying to cause offence.
Roman Curia because it is based in Rome.

In the Catholic Church there are 23 "Rites". These have different liturgical traditions. The largest is the 'Roman' or 'Latin' Rite. In that sense you might see a church called xxxxxxx Roman Catholic Church, denoting it belongs to the Roman Rite. Some miles north of where I live is a church belonging to the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church "whose origins are said to date back to the arrival of St Thomas the Apostle in 52 AD, is one of the is one of the 22 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. With 4.6 million Catholics belonging to this rite, it is the second largest of the Eastern Churches." (Catholic Herald).

The current Catechism is the Catechism of The Catholic Church (abbreviated CCC).
 

for_his_glory

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The Popes official titles are:
Bishop of Rome,
Vicar of Jesus Christ,
Successor of the Prince of the Apostles,
Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church,
Primate of Italy,
Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province,
Sovereign of the State of Vatican City,
Servant of the Servants of God.

Pontifex Maximus is not an official tirle.
No-one worships the Pope. That is ridiculous.
Bowing is sign of honour and respect not worship

We've covered Holy Father and "call no man father". If you haven't taken any notice before I don't think it's worth re-iterating what has been said already.
The word pontifex and its derivative pontiff later became terms used by Catholic Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome and the title of Pontifex Maximus was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop and appears on buildings, monuments and coins of Popes of Renaissance and modern times.

I don't think it is worth discussing until you can answer all the questions I asked in post #88. It doesn't matter how many titles he has and yes many worship the Pope who is known as "The Holy Father" and hold him in the highest esteem. This is evident in the crowds he addresses that bow down before him.
 

Mungo

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The word pontifex and its derivative pontiff later became terms used by Catholic Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome and the title of Pontifex Maximus was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop and appears on buildings, monuments and coins of Popes of Renaissance and modern times.

I don't think it is worth discussing until you can answer all the questions I asked in post #88. It doesn't matter how many titles he has and yes many worship the Pope who is known as "The Holy Father" and hold him in the highest esteem. This is evident in the crowds he addresses that bow down before him.
Bowing is not worship. It may be used in worship but it is not worship in itself.
 

Mungo

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Kissing a ring
In Medieval times, and earlier, the ring was not just an ornament but an identifier of the person. It was unique to a person and would be used to seal documents so that the person receiving them could be assured it was genuine. The ring symbolized the person’s office, and thus a document had the authority of the office holder. The Pope’s ring is known as the Fisherman’s Ring and symbolizes the Pope as a “fisher of men” The earliest mention of it is 1285 as being used to seal a Pope’s private correspondence.

Kissing the Pope’s ring is a sign of respect for the Pope and his office and acknowledging him as the successor of St. Peter. There are many ways that we show respect to a person and/or their office, bowing, standing if we are sitting, kissing on the cheek. In older times a person would walk backwards out of the room after speaking with a King or Queen so as not to turn their back on them. Kissing a ring is just one of these ways of showing respect, an ancient one.
 

for_his_glory

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This site promotes politeness between Christian bothers and sisters.

The term RCC and Roman Catholic Church when referring to the Church led by Pope Francis is both incorrect and impolite.

The Church calls itself the Catholic Church (or if you want the rarely used formal title - The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church).

Adding the 'Roman' in front was a pejorative term used by the "reformers" at the Reformation.
I see no one being unkind or not being polite to each other in here, but only discussing our indifference's. It is called the Roman Catholic Church named from Vatican City in Rome where the headquarters for the Catholic Church is found. Many Catholic Churches still call themselves Roman Catholic Church and even printed on the church building or billboards outside the church.
 
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