Bible Study FIVE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH

[JM]

Do you agree?

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Heb. 1:8-9), Who is the Creator God Himself (Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; compare Gen. 1:1); Who "laid the foundation of the earth" (Heb. 1:10-12; compare Psalms 102:24-27).

2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Mt. 1:23; Luke 1:27).

3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Ro. 3:25; Ro. 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:12-14). (Please note: this refers to a belief in salvation by grace alone [Sola Gratia], through faith in the Blood of Christ alone [Sola Fide] - Ro. 3:25 states that God has set forth Jesus to be a propitiation through faith in His Blood; Ro. 5:9 states that we are justified by Christ's Blood; and Eph. 1:7 states that we have redemption through His blood - see also Acts 20:28; Heb. 9:12-14).

4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Cor. 15:14-15).

5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Ro. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20), and the fact that we should rely upon scripture alone (Sola Scriptura).

 

[Vice]

While those are all very important points and non-debatable doctrines within Christendom, I'd have to say that there is one fundamental -- #1, on the basis of John 8:24:

".....for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

The others often fall into place when one believes in #1.

#3 is also part of the foundation of Christendom, but I pause and give thought to those who died in the faith prior to Jesus. Would some of them have known that the messiah would pay the price for sin with his blood? I don't know, but I'm sure that many of them would've simply trusted that God would send a savior.

Hmmmmmmmmm.........................

Hmmmmmmm...........

This might turn out to be a very interesting thread.

 

[JM]

#3 is also part of the foundation of Christendom, but I pause and give thought to those who died in the faith prior to Jesus. Would some of them have known that the messiah would pay the price for sin with his blood? I don't know, but I'm sure that many of them would've simply trusted that God would send a savior.

Isn't that why Jesus decsended to the dead?

 

[Adams son]

While those are all very important points and non-debatable doctrines within Christendom, I'd have to say that there is one fundamental -- #1, on the basis of John 8:24:

".....for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

Um that let's read that okay and see if what you say has any merit whatsoever....

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the first? *John 8:24-25)

So.... what exactly did Jesus say to them at the first? Let's see okay?

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true." (John 8:12-13).

I think I will go with the Bible rather than your imagination on this one.



Let's look further into this matter.

As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work. "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world." When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes, and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing. Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?" Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I AM."

Looks like this blind person was claiming to be God was he?

 

[Judy]

I agree with what you have posted Jason.. :-D

:o.. Adams son

 

[Free]

I agree, mostly, with the five points. The only real disagreement comes with #5 and the issue of sola scriptura. Scripture should be the ultimate rule, or standard, by which other things are measured, but God works through more than just Scripture. I rely upon my experience, tradition, and reason as well as Scripture. The very word 'canon' itself literally means 'reed' or 'measuring stick.'

Also, the term 'sola scriptura' has been taken to an extent that goes far beyond its orignial intent. It was first used to mean just what I mentioned above, namely, that Scripture is to be the ultimate authority and 'measuring stick', but never meant only Scripture.


Adams son,

I think I will go with the Bible rather than your imagination on this one.

You need a little clarification. What John 8:24 states, in the Greek, is "Unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins." The word "he" is added by English translators to smooth out the phrase. However, what this does is take away the force of what Jesus actually said. He was saying that he is the I Am, equal with Yahweh. He states this again in verse 58 and as a result, the Jews try to stone him.

Also, perhaps you missed the part where Jesus replies "Just what I have been claiming all along." One instance of "I am the light of the world" hardly dictates that response, especially since it was during the same speech. "All along" would imply what he was claiming for a long period of time - months, years.

I can find several more instances of Jesus' implicit claim to deity, but only one where he says "I am the light of the world." Which would fit "all along"?

 

[Adams son]

I agree, mostly, with the five points. The only real disagreement comes with #5 and the issue of sola scriptura. Scripture should be the ultimate rule, or standard, by which other things are measured, but God works through more than just Scripture. I rely upon my experience, tradition, and reason as well as Scripture. The very word 'canon' itself literally means 'reed' or 'measuring stick.'

Also, the term 'sola scriptura' has been taken to an extent that goes far beyond its orignial intent. It was first used to mean just what I mentioned above, namely, that Scripture is to be the ultimate authority and 'measuring stick', but never meant only Scripture.


Adams son,

I think I will go with the Bible rather than your imagination on this one.

You need a little clarification. What John 8:24 states, in the Greek, is "Unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins." The word "he" is added by English translators to smooth out the phrase. However, what this does is take away the force of what Jesus actually said. He was saying that he is the I Am, equal with Yahweh. He states this again in verse 58 and as a result, the Jews try to stone him.

Also, perhaps you missed the part where Jesus replies "Just what I have been claiming all along." One instance of "I am the light of the world" hardly dictates that response, especially since it was during the same speech. "All along" would imply what he was claiming for a long period of time - months, years.

I can find several more instances of Jesus' implicit claim to deity, but only one where he says "I am the light of the world." Which would fit "all along"?

You are as blind as the man in the next chapter who also said, "I AM." This term is not used in John to mean "equals Yahweh" as you claim without foundation. Jesus said "I AM" to mean "I am the Christ" in chapter 4. Why do you not there claim he was saying "I AM (= YHVH)." I know the answer.... because it does not fit there.

If anyone reads John 8:24-25 reasonably, we can see quite clearly that Jesus was telling them that unless they believed he was the light of the world that they would die in their sins. It is the context of the entire passage. But somehow you want Jesus to be making a sudden and disjointed declaration that he is YAHWEH. You do this to your own corruption.

 

[Vice]

I agree, mostly, with the five points. The only real disagreement comes with #5 and the issue of sola scriptura. Scripture should be the ultimate rule, or standard, by which other things are measured, but God works through more than just Scripture. I rely upon my experience, tradition, and reason as well as Scripture. The very word 'canon' itself literally means 'reed' or 'measuring stick.'

Also, the term 'sola scriptura' has been taken to an extent that goes far beyond its orignial intent. It was first used to mean just what I mentioned above, namely, that Scripture is to be the ultimate authority and 'measuring stick', but never meant only Scripture.


Adams son,

I think I will go with the Bible rather than your imagination on this one.

You need a little clarification. What John 8:24 states, in the Greek, is "Unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins." The word "he" is added by English translators to smooth out the phrase. However, what this does is take away the force of what Jesus actually said. He was saying that he is the I Am, equal with Yahweh. He states this again in verse 58 and as a result, the Jews try to stone him.

Also, perhaps you missed the part where Jesus replies "Just what I have been claiming all along." One instance of "I am the light of the world" hardly dictates that response, especially since it was during the same speech. "All along" would imply what he was claiming for a long period of time - months, years.

I can find several more instances of Jesus' implicit claim to deity, but only one where he says "I am the light of the world." Which would fit "all along"?

You are as blind as the man in the next chapter who also said, "I AM." This term is not used in John to mean "equals Yahweh" as you claim without foundation. Jesus said "I AM" to mean "I am the Christ" in chapter 4. Why do you not there claim he was saying "I AM (= YHVH)." I know the answer.... because it does not fit there.

If anyone reads John 8:24-25 reasonably, we can see quite clearly that Jesus was telling them that unless they believed he was the light of the world that they would die in their sins. It is the context of the entire passage. But somehow you want Jesus to be making a sudden and disjointed declaration that he is YAHWEH. You do this to your own corruption.

I love how the anonymity gained through internet posting somehow empowers certain individuals to comment with impunity and disrespect. :roll:

In the Greek, the landscape of John's Gospel is littered with the phrase "ego eimi." The presence of the pronoun "ego" is unnecessary in the Greek; "eimi" suffices in indicating both the person and the verb tense.......that is, unless one wants to emphasize something else. John did this throughout his Gospel to emphasize the true identity of Jesus as I AM, culminating in verse 58 with the great I AM statement.

Context is important, but context within the scope of the original languages and themes of each writer is equally important.

 

[Adams son]

I agree, mostly, with the five points. The only real disagreement comes with #5 and the issue of sola scriptura. Scripture should be the ultimate rule, or standard, by which other things are measured, but God works through more than just Scripture. I rely upon my experience, tradition, and reason as well as Scripture. The very word 'canon' itself literally means 'reed' or 'measuring stick.'

Also, the term 'sola scriptura' has been taken to an extent that goes far beyond its orignial intent. It was first used to mean just what I mentioned above, namely, that Scripture is to be the ultimate authority and 'measuring stick', but never meant only Scripture.


Adams son,

I think I will go with the Bible rather than your imagination on this one.

You need a little clarification. What John 8:24 states, in the Greek, is "Unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins." The word "he" is added by English translators to smooth out the phrase. However, what this does is take away the force of what Jesus actually said. He was saying that he is the I Am, equal with Yahweh. He states this again in verse 58 and as a result, the Jews try to stone him.

Also, perhaps you missed the part where Jesus replies "Just what I have been claiming all along." One instance of "I am the light of the world" hardly dictates that response, especially since it was during the same speech. "All along" would imply what he was claiming for a long period of time - months, years.

I can find several more instances of Jesus' implicit claim to deity, but only one where he says "I am the light of the world." Which would fit "all along"?

You are as blind as the man in the next chapter who also said, "I AM." This term is not used in John to mean "equals Yahweh" as you claim without foundation. Jesus said "I AM" to mean "I am the Christ" in chapter 4. Why do you not there claim he was saying "I AM (= YHVH)." I know the answer.... because it does not fit there.

If anyone reads John 8:24-25 reasonably, we can see quite clearly that Jesus was telling them that unless they believed he was the light of the world that they would die in their sins. It is the context of the entire passage. But somehow you want Jesus to be making a sudden and disjointed declaration that he is YAHWEH. You do this to your own corruption.

I love how the anonymity gained through internet posting somehow empowers certain individuals to comment with impunity and disrespect. :roll:

In the Greek, the landscape of John's Gospel is littered with the phrase "ego eimi." The presence of the pronoun "ego" is unnecessary in the Greek; "eimi" suffices in indicating both the person and the verb tense.......that is, unless one wants to emphasize something else. John did this throughout his Gospel to emphasize the true identity of Jesus as I AM, culminating in verse 58 with the great I AM statement.

Context is important, but context within the scope of the original languages and themes of each writer is equally important.

Your assessment of the Greek in John is quite misrepresentative of the nature of the Greek language.

For example:

Do you really think the Roman cohort and Jewish Sandhedrin's temple guard believed Jesus was YAHWEH here in the following passage and then went on to forcibly arrest this God Most High?

Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. So when He said to them, "I am," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Did these men fall back when God revealed himself and then thought they were putting God under arrest?

 

[Vice]

I don't recall stating that Jesus' use of the emphatic pronoun is, in every instance, a direct claim to his divinity. Nor do I think that any other Greek student would claim that. Typical examples might be the following:

John 6:20 - But he said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid."

John 17:14 - "I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

John 18:5 - They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them "I am He." And Judas also who was betraying him, was standing with them. (This is the example you pointed out).

John 18:8 - Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; if therefore you seek me, let these go their way."

There are also instances in which Jesus does NOT use the emphatic pronoun.

John 7:29 - "But I know him; because I am from him and he sent me."

John 9:5 - "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

John 13:13 - "You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.

However, the use of the emphatic pronoun in John, particularly with reference to Jesus' identity, is more than just wasted ink on John's part. The objective of his Gospel is clear: proclaim Jesus' total divinity. He establishes this theme both with his prologue AND with the thematic semeia. To ignore John's use of the emphatic pronoun--of which there are 54 occurences in his Gospel-- is to ignore the message he is trying to convey.

Here's A.T. Robertson's take on the verse in which you claimed that "I used my imagination" (a very loving, edifying, and Christian way of putting it, I might add)-- John 8:24 (from Word Pictures):

Indirect discourse, but with no word in the predicate after the copula eimi. Jesus can mean either "that I am from above" (verse 23), "that I am the one sent from the Father or the Messiah" (7:18, 28), "that I am the Light of the World (8:12), "that I am the deliverer from the bondage of sin" (8:28, 31f, 36), "that I am" without supplying a predicate in the absolute sense as the Jews (Deut:32:39) used the language of Jehovah (cf. Isa:43:10 where the very words occur hina pisteusaite--hoti ego eimi). The phrase ego eimi occurs three times here (24, 28, 58) and also in 13:19. Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in 8:58.

If I used my imagination in interpreting John 8:24 as a claim of Jesus' absolute divinity, then I am in very good company.

 

[Vice]

#3 is also part of the foundation of Christendom, but I pause and give thought to those who died in the faith prior to Jesus. Would some of them have known that the messiah would pay the price for sin with his blood? I don't know, but I'm sure that many of them would've simply trusted that God would send a savior.

Isn't that why Jesus decsended to the dead?

Oops. Almost missed this.

Hi Jason. I don't even think I'm going to go there.

 

[liafailrock]

Although I agree with all 5, there is an issue with "Sola Scriptura" doctrine. You'd think a "KJV only" and "infallible Word of God" guy like me would be horrified at the thought that one can receive a revelation from other than Scripture.

However, what does Scripture teach? It teaches us that God's Word was revealed in the stars (Psalm 19:1-6) in stone (Isaiah 19:19-20) by his prophets and apostles (Luke 11:49), and ultimately in God's Son (Hebrews 1:2)

I believe the Holy Bible is the benchmark of all truth from which other writings, prophecies, etc. can be judged. In the Bible is everything we need to know about spiritual wisdom and salvation. However, other sources, provided they conform, act as additional witnesses.

So I guess what I am saying is that there are other sources that can be considered the Word of God that agree with what the Bible already says (c.f. Deut 17:6 ---same concept).

 

[Adams son]

Although I agree with all 5, there is an issue with "Sola Scriptura" doctrine. You'd think a "KJV only" and "infallible Word of God" guy like me would be horrified at the thought that one can receive a revelation from other than Scripture.

However, what does Scripture teach? It teaches us that God's Word was revealed in the stars (Psalm 19:1-6) in stone (Isaiah 19:19-20) by his prophets and apostles (Luke 11:49), and ultimately in God's Son (Hebrews 1:2)

I believe the Holy Bible is the benchmark of all truth from which other writings, prophecies, etc. can be judged. In the Bible is everything we need to know about spiritual wisdom and salvation. However, other sources, provided they conform, act as additional witnesses.

So I guess what I am saying is that there are other sources that can be considered the Word of God that agree with what the Bible already says (c.f. Deut 17:6 ---same concept).

In other words, the witness of God's Son in our hearts must conform to the witness of the Bible and not the other way around right?

God's final word to us was not a book but a person, his son Jesus the Word of God. He IS the Wisdom of God, not concepts about him - those would be fleshly things. Jesus the Word of God is our spiritual wisdom of God.

How sad that so few recognize this any longer and have resorted to the ways of Gnosticism.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I'm with free. God still speaks to us today, and we don't see it in scripture. The other four points are fine. 8-)

 

[liafailrock]

In other words, the witness of God's Son in our hearts must conform to the witness of the Bible and not the other way around right?

God's final word to us was not a book but a person, his son Jesus the Word of God. He IS the Wisdom of God, not concepts about him - those would be fleshly things. Jesus the Word of God is our spiritual wisdom of God.

How sad that so few recognize this any longer and have resorted to the ways of Gnosticism.

I'm not sure what you are indicating here--- but for the record, I'd take what Jesus said over anything else anyday. however, the Bible recorded what He said.

There's no need to make this more complicated than it is. It's like any subject. There are multiple ways to express the same truth. They are compiled and written into a "textbook". If something does not confrm to the textbook, then one must question it.

As for messages "in one's heart", I am a little skeptical of them, because "God" spoke to many people that way only to be the product of their imagination. The Bible is different, however. The testimonies (of something like 40 authors) agree over time and ultimately confirmed by the Word Himself when Jesus quoted the Scriptures.