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For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

AVBunyan

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I doubt this thread will go anywhere but let’s try anyway.

I submit to you that the reason folks think they can lose it is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1. They are still unregenerate – I Cor. 2:13; II Cor. 4:3 or…

2. They do not understand how the sinner is truly justified before God or...

3. They may be saved but do not know nor understand what God actually did to the saint at the point of justification.

So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7.

Thanks – God bless
 
S

sisterchristian

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AVBunyan said:
I doubt this thread will go anywhere but let’s try anyway.

I submit to you that the reason folks think they can lose it is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1. They are still unregenerate – I Cor. 2:13; II Cor. 4:3 or…

2. They do not understand how the sinner is truly justified before God or...

3. They may be saved but do not know nor understand what God actually did to the saint at the point of justification.

So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7.

Thanks – God bless
Another reason that someone might think they can lose it is because they have the "Good works is what gets you into heaven" mentality!
 
U

unred typo

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sisterchristian said:
Another reason that someone might think they can lose it is because they have the "Good works is what gets you into heaven" mentality!

Why yes, that I do, but no time to write right now... torment you later.... ;-)
 
S

sisterchristian

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unred typo said:
Why yes, that I do, but no time to write right now... torment you later.... ;-)
All I can say to you is that you need to read the book of Galatians, it is so very clear that your "WORKS" is not what gets you into heaven!
 

Veritas

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...Ephesians 2:8 is clear as well:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
 
S

sisterchristian

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Veritas said:
...Ephesians 2:8 is clear as well:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Exactly! So then why do you think that people tend to make Salvation harder then it is?? When all you have to do is ask (with sincerity of course)!
 
T

thessalonian

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Veritas said:
...Ephesians 2:8 is clear as well:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Not to be confused with us not having to do any good in this world to go to heaven.

Romans
4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

How is this to be reconciled with salvation by grace through faith? Easily.

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

When we come to faith and act on that faith, God gives us the grace to do all things in him. Without him we can do nothing.

Many confuse works of the law and works of charity or love. We are told that love is greater than faith and hope. We must have love to enter heaven.
 

Drew

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Veritas said:
...Ephesians 2:8 is clear as well:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
The very real problem is that interpreting the Scriptures is not as simple as many people make it out to be. It would be nice if it were otherwise, but I think it clearly is not.

Whether we realize it or not, we attach a certain mean to the word "faith" in the above text (Ephesian 2:8). I humbly submit that the meaning many North American evangelical protestants attach to this word is this: a single one time act of intellectual assent to the proposition that Jesus died for my sins and that He is Lord of the Universe.

Where does that "definition" come from? From the Scriptures? I highly doubt it. If things were this simple, how is it that we have texts like these ones:

1 Corinthians 9:25-27:

Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.â€Â

In verse 25, Paul describes salvation as a “crown that will last forever.†Whereas an athlete trains hard in order to compete for a prize that does not last, the reward for training our bodies for the work of God is salvation that endures forever. What is interesting to note in this passage, however, is what Paul says in verse 27. Paul states,

“No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.â€Â

Despite his intense conversion to Christianity on the road to Damascus, Paul expresses in verse 27 a legitimate concern that he could lose his salvation. He mentions at the end of verse 27 the possibility that he could be “disqualified for the prize.†This is strong evidence that suggests Paul did not believe in eternal security.

Philippians 2:12

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedâ€â€not only in my presence, but now much more in my absenceâ€â€continue to work out your salvation with fear and tremblingâ€Â

2 Peter 3:17

“Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

The nature of "saving faith" strikes me as a very complex question. But warnings like the ones above make it very hard for me to accept the "eternal securirty" position.

So perhaps we need to ask ourselves the following question: Where, exaclty, do we get our ideas about what "faith" is really constituted by?
 

mondar

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Drew,
I would agree that Faith is not a single one time assent to certain propositions. The scripture does not teach that, but "the just shall life by faith."
 

Drew

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mondar said:
Drew,
I would agree that Faith is not a single one time assent to certain propositions. The scripture does not teach that, but "the just shall life by faith."
Hello Mondar:

Let me start by saying that I appreciate your polite and respectful style of discussing issues that we may disagree on.

I am interested in any explanation you can provide about what you think constitutes "faith". I assume that we all agree that the word "faith" means something. To be frank, at this time I do not have a clear understanding myself of what this term means. As you probably know, I do not believe in the notion of "once saved always saved", but I claim that I can legitimately deny OSAS without having a clear understanding of what faith actually is.
 

mondar

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AVBunyan said:
I doubt this thread will go anywhere but let’s try anyway.

I submit to you that the reason folks think they can lose it is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1. They are still unregenerate – I Cor. 2:13; II Cor. 4:3 or…

2. They do not understand how the sinner is truly justified before God or...

3. They may be saved but do not know nor understand what God actually did to the saint at the point of justification.

So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.
Defination---- Justification is the act of God whereby he acquits the believer of any charge of sin on the basis of the fact that the penalty has been payed by Christ shed blood.
Verses------- I would choose Romans 8:31ff to demonstrate the defination above. The context is a very legal context. In verse 33 no one can lay a "charge" against Gods elect. In verse 34 no one can "condemn." God is the divine judge with the gavel in his hand. He is the one who justifies when be bangs the gavel and pronounces the elect innocent.

How did I do so far? Do I pass?


AVBunyan said:
2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7.

Thanks – God bless

OK, Redempton is one
2--regeneration---Titus 3:5; John 3
3--Advocating ---Hebrews?
4--Christs high priestly intercession --Hebrews 9-10
5--We become Children of God
 

mondar

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Personally, something that convinced me of OSAS was when I saw that the elect will absolutely bear fruit. This raises the question what if the elect become carnal, or fall into some sin. While this can happen, God will never allow it to continue. If it continues, God will take the life of a believer before he allows him to loose his salvation. Notice how 1 Cor 11 works.

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

In these verses some are chastened to death in verse 30. Yet in verse 32 these Christians who were chastened to death are not "condemned with the world."

Some might think what I am saying is the nasty side of OSAS. Yet if you think in eternal terms, it is far more graceous of God to protect the carnal christian from being eternally damned, then to allow him to go into eternity damned.

I have heard those that deny OSAS say that if you believe in OSAS you can go out and "live like the devil." Exactly the opposite is true. In OSAS it is impossible for the believer to "live like the devil." We are saved to bear fruit, and it is God who brings forth that fruit. There is always fruit, but if the crop of fruit is too small, chastening can come. That is why some are sick, and some sleep.
 

handy

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Drew, you bring up a good point. When I went from a more Calvinistic church to a Nazarene church, I was introduced to the 'alter call'. It worked like this, the pastor would wind up the sermon, on whatever he was preaching about. The organist would then being to softly play "Just As I Am". The pastor would then go over the gospel basics, he always quoted Revelations 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him and he with me". Then he would urge anyone 'who has not asked Jesus into your heart' to come forward and 'give your life to Christ'. When anyone came forward, (and it seemed very strange to me that often the same folks would come forward week after week after week) the Pastor would then say a 'sinner's prayer' which would go something like, "Lord, I know I have sinned against you. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive my sin and cleanse me from unrighteousness." Then, the Pastor would assure anyone that if they prayed that prayer, they were now born-again and had eternal life and they would never lose their salvation.

It bothered me. It bothered me because one, Revelations 3:20 was taken totally out of context. Two, I do not see any kind of model for this type of 'alter call' experience in the Scriptures, and three, all the warnings and admonishments in Scripture, such as those you posted above, were totally ignored.

I've been kicking around this topic for a while now. I entered into a debate with Solo on it, (although have yet to be able to actually debate) it's been very dominate in the "Was Judas Saved" thread, and I've read through several other threads. One thing I keep seeing over and over is that Ephesians 2:8-9 (but heaven forbid not 10) gets quoted and quoted and quoted, yet not one in the OSAS camp has yet to delve into texts such as 1 Corinthians 9:25-27, Philippians 2:12-13 and 2 Peter 3:17 or Hebrews 6:4-6 or Hebrews 10:26-27 to explain just what they do mean, since they apparently are not warnings to guard our faith.

I've said before that I do believe that Jesus will lose not one who is called. However, just because God will be faithful and enable us to perservere, it is not right of us to distort the message of the gospel which included both the promise that He who began a good work in us will perfect it until that day and the exhortation to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
 

AVBunyan

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mondar said:
How did I do so far? Do I pass?
You get a passaging a grade for two reasons:

1. You actually answered both questions and...
2. Your answers were right on.

Now to expand on the second question from just 5 acts all one needs to do is to go to Eph. 1-3 and underline all the past tense phrases to see what God hath wrought. :wink:

God bless
 

jgredline

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Mondar
Your postings are quite good!!!!
I am Glad, because I am not much in the mood for posting right now, so I will just read along with an occasional comment....
 

mondar

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Drew said:
I am interested in any explanation you can provide about what you think constitutes "faith". I assume that we all agree that the word "faith" means something. To be frank, at this time I do not have a clear understanding myself of what this term means. As you probably know, I do not believe in the notion of "once saved always saved", but I claim that I can legitimately deny OSAS without having a clear understanding of what faith actually is.

Drew, I understand you to be asking for a further clarification on the defination of faith. It is tempting to go to Hebrews 11:1 and give the classic defination of faith. I think I will do something a little more shallow and just rip something off the top of my head.

These comments will not totally define faith, but might be understood as a contribution toward a defination of faith.

I see faith as the knowledge that God is trustworthy. I might think you are an honest person. If you tell me you can hold a board and will not let go I might have faith in your intentions, but will still not walk out on the board. I might not have faith in your ability to accomplish your intentions. Faith in God then must be total.

I think of the great statement in Genesis 15:6 that is used by Paul several times in the NT. In Genesis 14 there is this military activity in which Arbaham and some allies defeat the kings of 4 cities. In Genesis 15 Abraham might be concerned about retribution. In Genesis 15:1ff God promises to be his "shield" and "reward." Abraham seems unconcerned about the shield part, it is not discussed. I think Abraham assumed that part. He was concerned about the reward. He asked God, "what will you give me seeing I go childless and the heir of my house is Eliazar of Damascus." God promises seed like the stars and Abraham believed him. Now it is true, that he tried to make those promises come true with Ishmael, but that does not mean he did not believe the promises of God. He did believe the promises, but his works were fleshly and rejected by God. God waited until Abraham and Sarah had bodies incapable of reproducing, and then they had Isaac, the promised seed. Abraham knew this was the promised seed, yet he was willing to do something completely irrational and obey God in Genesis 22. Why? Faith! Now Abrahams faith was a great faith, we barely have enough faith to do the rational, let alone the irrational (sacrifice Isaac).

We have faith in God and are saved, and this faith continues eternally. We trust the promises of God. In faith, we do not make a decision, but we walk out on the board and live on the edge of a board that overhangs the sky scraper. We now live over the edge because we trust that God is able. Faith is not a decision, it is a life. The just shall live by faith.

I hope this at least is a contribution toward a defination of faith.
 

jgredline

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handy said:
Drew, you bring up a good point. When I went from a more Calvinistic church to a Nazarene church,

Most people start off with Armenianistic theology of salvation and as they grow, they lean more to a Reformed view of Justification...

I used to believe that I could loose my salvation but as I studied the Word of God more and more, I realized that my beliefs were wrong...
 

mondar

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handy said:
One thing I keep seeing over and over is that Ephesians 2:8-9 (but heaven forbid not 10) gets quoted and quoted and quoted, yet not one in the OSAS camp has yet to delve into texts such as 1 Corinthians 9:25-27, Philippians 2:12-13 and 2 Peter 3:17 or Hebrews 6:4-6 or Hebrews 10:26-27 to explain just what they do mean, since they apparently are not warnings to guard our faith.

Would you really like someone from the OSAS came to address those texts? And if I address them what happens then?

Also, are you implying that OSAS people never quote any other verse other then Ephesians 2:8? Would you really like me to defend that doctrine scripturally not even bothering to mention Ephesians?
 

handy

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Some might think what I am saying is the nasty side of OSAS. Yet if you think in eternal terms, it is far more graceous of God to protect the carnal christian from being eternally damned, then to allow him to go into eternity damned.

Mondar,

Thanks for your post. I think the problem that I've had up to now with the OSAS crowd, (which actually were the Calvinists and not the Nazarenes btw) was that the 'nasty' side is ignored. By pushing once saved always saved, instead of presenting the whole of the gospel, our responsibilities as well as God's free gifts, we are ill equpping each other for our walk with God.

AVBunyan,

Starting with Ephesians 1:

Blessed us with every spiritual blessing v3
Chose us in Him before the foundation of the world v4
Predestined us to adoption v5
We have redemption v7
The forgiveness of our trespasses v7
Lavished upon us the riches of His grace vs7-8
Made known to us the mystery of His will v9
We have obtained an inheritance v11
Sealed with Him with the Holy Spirit of promise v13
Holy Spirit is given as a pledge v14

It's a start, no? :biggrin

And I do believe that we need things like these, these wonderful promises to believers of what God has done, is doing and will do. My problem with OSAS, as a taught doctrine is not that it doesn't correctly put forth the promises of God, so much as it doesn't deal with the warnings, the 'nasty side', that we also need to be fully equipped. Fully equipped especially to walk triumphantly in this overly fleshly USA that we now live in.
 
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