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Vic - that is exactly the point. We have been bought by God with the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not own ourselves, we cannot pay the price - so how can we lose that which we have not bought and that which we do not own?

Do we have Christ's blood as our purchasing agent? Is it something offered us for our atonement which we must accept (refuting universal salvation)? If so then how do we trample that agent underfoot (Hebrews 10:29)? How is it possible that we can deny the Lord that bought us (2 Peter 2:1; 1 Corinthians 6:20)?

Remember, we have a downpayment, in the Holy Spirit. But we can grieve and even blaspheme the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit's seal is more of an idenifying mark (paralleling circumcision) rather than a "bottle seal" that we would typically think of. God's warnings in the NT are not in vain, be careful. Although he can keep us through faith let us be wary lest we think we stand, yet through a hardened heart (Hebrews 3:13) we instead fall.
 
cybershark5886 said:
Do we have Christ's blood as our purchasing agent? Is it something offered us for our atonement which we must accept (refuting universal salvation)? If so then how do we trample that agent underfoot (Hebrews 10:29)? How is it possible that we can deny the Lord that bought us (2 Peter 2:1; 1 Corinthians 6:20)?

Remember, we have a downpayment, in the Holy Spirit. But we can grieve and even blaspheme the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit's seal is more of an idenifying mark (paralleling circumcision) rather than a "bottle seal" that we would typically think of. God's warnings in the NT are not in vain, be careful. Although he can keep us through faith let us be wary lest we think we stand, yet through a hardened heart (Hebrews 3:13) we instead fall.

Cyber - I appreciate your posts, however I believe we disagree when it comes to interpreting Hebrews - I believe the author of Hebrews is writing to at least two seperate groups - Jewish believers (Christians) and non-believers.

Also, I believe that there are only two times one can blaspehme the Holy Spirit and that is at the two advents of Christ - one during His earthly ministry and the second at His Second Coming.
 
Cyber - I appreciate your posts, however I believe we disagree when it comes to interpreting Hebrews - I believe the author of Hebrews is writing to at least two seperate groups - Jewish believers (Christians) and non-believers.

Really, and Hebrews 3:13 just happens to be one of those verses? How convieniet. I didn't know that a Christian couldn't harden their heart. I'll go spread the good news and tell every one in the Church to stop edifying and encouraging (Hebrews 3:13) one another to keep fighting the good fight so that they don't develop a hard heart, because its impossible thus not necessary! Well glory be, that backsliding fella in my Church is still on the right track afterall, he just uses up a little more of God's cover-all "grace" than the rest of us to scrap by.

All sarcasm aside, it is rediculous to believe that a Christian cannot harden their heart nor be decieved by sin. I have experienced both personally and anyone who has sinned (that includes you and the rest of us humans) then we have been decieved by it. It is important not to continue in our backsliding sin lest our heart develop layers of self-protection around it closing itself more and more to God's grace (developing a hardening heart).

Also, I believe that there are only two times one can blaspehme the Holy Spirit and that is at the two advents of Christ - one during His earthly ministry and the second at His Second Coming.

#1 The Holy Spirit was not given during Christ's first advent, thus why He had to leave. Secondly, if unbelievers could blaspheme the HS then, they can equally blaspheme Him now by rejecting His current work through people preaching the Gospel today. Your Adventist theology does not hold up.

#2 If we can currently grieve the Holy Spirit we can also blaspheme Him. Balspheming is the same as rejecting and denying (thus slandering) the name of God. "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).
 
Consider the following quote:

In Matthew 12:22-32; Mark 3:22-30; Luke 12:10 Jesus refers to a sin against the Holy Spirit called blasphemy. Jesus says it is one sin that can never be forgiven. There is some disagreement of what this sin is. Augustine of Hippo taught that this blasphemy is the rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life. If you continue to the very end to reject the Holy Spirit as it works in your life, you have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Rejecting the voice of the Holy Spirit is rejecting the offer of peace with God.

http://www.stjameschicago.org/confirmation/unit6-a.htm
 
Long post alert! Sorry, and honestly I did edit this thing. Please bear with me.



AV, I appreciate your essay on dispensation. It certainly cleared up the confusion I had regarding your view on Hebrews. Stranger, I also so appreciate your post regarding the dangers of “-istâ€Â. Your expression, “emphasis distortion†is something that I think should be taught in every seminary of every denomination out there. It is one of the more serious problems that I see in the Church today.

In regards to Dispensationalism: Calvinists are rabidly against Dispensationalism, and so I started off as learning only the negatives about it. When I began to move away from Calvinism and study again many doctrines that they both preached and preached against, I took another look at Dispensationalism. Since then, I’ve asked many questions and have studied many passages to see if it stands up to Scriptural scrutiny. I don’t believe it does.

In an honest and non-emotional comparison, one would have to admit that the teachings of Darby in regards to Dispensationalism and Joseph Smith Jr. present us with the same problem. Both schools of thought require that we must ignore almost two Millenniums of Biblical teaching and look at the scriptures through the lens of a certain man. While there were a few scholars who did divide Biblical history into certain ages, no one taught Dispensationalism, as we know it until Darby. Scofield, Chafer, Ironside and Ryrie can all trace their Dispensationalist views from what they learned from Darby.

One of the pillars of Dispensationalism is the division of Israel and the Church. The clearest passage of Scripture that explains the relationship between Israel, the Church and Christ is Romans 11:17-26. The idea that there are two separate peoples of God falls apart right here in this passage. Let us look carefully at verse 17:
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wert grafted in among them and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

At issue here is the fact that there is but one tree and many branches. Only some branches were broken off, and others were grafted in to the same tree. This imagery of one tree and, not two branches, but many branches is the correct imagery of what happened between Israel and God. There is but one tree. Of the many branches, some are Jews, some are Gentiles, and all make up the Body of Christ. All those saved by grace through faith, whether Jew or Gentile alike, make up the one Body.

Looking at the context of this particular verse, we find within this same chapter at Romans 11:24 that the Gentiles were the wild olives that were grafted into the cultivated tree. We are not separate from the tree and that tree is called Israel’s own. We can look within the context of the full letter to the Romans in verse 3:29 in which Paul asks the question if God is the God of Jews or of Gentiles and assures us that He is the God of all. This was right after Paul told us that there was ‘no distinction’ of ‘all who believe’ in verse 22. We can also see that Paul is clear that Israel, the chosen nation, is not those who are by blood descended from Abraham, for They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Romans 9:8

We can look in the greater context of the New Testament and see that in Galatians, Paul yet again explores the relationship between the Jews and Gentiles and tells us that there is no Jew or Greek, for ‘you are all one in Christ Jesus and if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.’ Galatians 3:28-29 There is Colossians 3:9-11 which exhorts us “Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him, -a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

I listed some texts for study in the debate regarding OSAS, several came out with this idea that many texts on the list were for the Jews (them) not for the Body of Christ (us).
Look carefully at Ephesians 3:6 and this idea that there is a divide between the Jews and the Body falls apart. “To be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel.â€Â

I ask all of you who think there is a divide between the Jews and the Christians, when Paul said, “fellow heirs†tell me: Fellow heirs with whom? And when he says, “And of the same body†tell me: Of the same body with whom?

With the Jews who believe of course. Just that some Jews rejected their Messiah and were then cut off from their tree, and Gentiles were grafted in, did not divide the body of Christ at all. We know this to be true for Paul assures us in Ephesians 4:4-6: “There is one body and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.â€Â

Therefore, when Paul states in Romans 11:26, “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacobâ€Â, he is not speaking of some kind of future event in which the nation of Israel will suddenly turn from Judaism and accept Jesus as the national Messiah. He is speaking contemporaneously, and is speaking as to the manner in which Israel will be saved, not as a nation, but as a body of believers in Christ.

To divide up the Scriptures into some kind of ‘us’ and ‘them’ and filtering entire books that were clearly written to believers because you think it is for ‘them’ is, my friends, any thing but ‘rightly dividing’ God’s Word. Which brings up another huge problem I have with Dispensationalism; the fact that it hinges itself upon basically one verse that has nothing to do with any kind of divisions within Scripture or the Body.
 
I listed some texts for study in the debate regarding OSAS, several came out with this idea that many texts on the list were for the Jews (them) not for the Body of Christ (us).

I know, and I hate those arguements. "Oh, of course, I forgot... that verse doesn't apply to me". I mean c'mon people, even if God deals with the Israelites differently historically and eschatalogically he will not deal with them differently when it comes to salvation issues.

Therefore, when Paul states in Romans 11:26, “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacobâ€Â, he is not speaking of some kind of future event in which the nation of Israel will suddenly turn from Judaism and accept Jesus as the national Messiah. He is speaking contemporaneously, and is speaking as to the manner in which Israel will be saved, not as a nation, but as a body of believers in Christ.

Well, actually.... Ezekiel 20 makes it clear that Israel will have a seperate escatalogical experience where God will gather them together from the ends of the earth and enter into the covenant with them in the desert/wilderness (like they did in exodus - and Revleation says that the believing jews - symbolized by the woman - will flee to the wilderness). Also the context of that verse in Romans mentions how God cut Israel as a nation off (but individuals could be granted salvation - all the apostles were Jews) but that he would in the future graft Israel back in.

To divide up the Scriptures into some kind of ‘us’ and ‘them’ and filtering entire books that were clearly written to believers because you think it is for ‘them’ is, my friends, any thing but ‘rightly dividing’ God’s Word.

That's absolutely correct.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
To Josh and others, I've started a thread specifically for discussing Dispensationalism. I hope you all join in.

Josh, even Ezekiel 20 and Ezekiel 40-48 are questioned as to meaning that the nation of Israel will have a separate escatalogical experience. I truly want to get into these specific 'pillars' of Dispensationalism on the other thread.
 
Josh ...I appreciate you, brother.

I think the thorn in my side concerning the OSAS issue is that a lot of times its focus is more on 'what you can get away with' than on walking in obedience to God. This won't produce true disciples.
 
destiny said:
Josh ...I appreciate you, brother.

I think the thorn in my side concerning the OSAS issue is that a lot of times its focus is more on 'what you can get away with' than on walking in obedience to God. This won't produce true disciples.

I believe that statement to be wrong. I believe OSAS and the last thing on my mind is 'what can I get away with today'. I think the only ones that think that are the one that don't believe OSAS. What I mean by that is, the ones that don't believe OSAS are the ones that says that is how we feel. And it is simply not true. If we thought that way we would really not be saved.
 
Judy said:
I believe that statement to be wrong. I believe OSAS and the last thing on my mind is 'what can I get away with today'. I think the only ones that think that are the one that don't believe OSAS. What I mean by that is the ones that don't believe OSAS are the ones that says that is how we feel. And it is simply not true. If we thought that way we would really not be saved.
Not saying everyone teaches it the same way ... but 'some' seem to focus more on being able to sin than obedience. I'm definitely not putting all in the OSAS camp in the same box concerning that because some will stress that they doubt salvation has taken place if the person is living no different than the world.
 
destiny said:
Not saying everyone teaches it the same way ... but 'some' seem to focus more on being able to sin than obedience. I'm definitely not putting all in the OSAS camp in the same box concerning that because some will stress that they doubt salvation has taken place if the person is living no different than the world.

Who, specifically, are these "some" who seem to "focus more on being able to sin"?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Who, specifically, are these "some" who seem to "focus more on being able to sin"?
The main one I have a problem with here on this forum concerning this I have confronted several times, and he has put me on ignore. I will keep the peace and leave it at that.
 
destiny said:
The main one I have a problem with here on this forum concerning this I have confronted several times, and he has put me on ignore. I will keep the peace and leave it at that.
Who has put you on ignore?
 
destiny, I would ask that if you do answer that question that it would be in PM to Solo or other staff. Please leave the forums for topics and not persons or personalities.. Thank you
 
destiny said:
The main one I have a problem with here on this forum concerning this I have confronted several times, and he has put me on ignore. I will keep the peace and leave it at that.

No offense Destiny, but your "some" seems to be "one"?

I would caution you on using "one" to speak for the whole of us who believe in eternal security.

What might be helpful then is discussing this 'one' person's beliefs rather than the person.
 
aLoneVoice said:
No offense Destiny, but your "some" seems to be "one"?

I would caution you on using "one" to speak for the whole of us who believe in eternal security.

What might be helpful then is discussing this 'one' person's beliefs rather than the person.
This isn't the only board I post on ... not to mention the church my son attended VCB at tried to teach him OSAS (in a way I didn't like). Theres other threads here on this issue where I have mentioned these same concerns more than once.
 
destiny said:
This isn't the only board I post on ... not to mention the church my son attended VCB at tried to teach him OSAS (in a way I didn't like). Theres other threads here on this issue where I have mentioned these same concerns more than once.

Not wanting to be repetative if you have already raised the issue - I personally have not heard eternal security taught in a way that empahsie the ability to 'sin'.

Would you be willing to share a concrete example or teaching of this so others might be able to understand where you are coming from and perhaps to show you the inaccuracy of that teaching?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Not wanting to be repetative if you have already raised the issue - I personally have not heard eternal security taught in a way that empahsie the ability to 'sin'.

Would you be willing to share a concrete example or teaching of this so others might be able to understand where you are coming from and perhaps to show you the inaccuracy of that teaching?
Avbunyon said somewhere in another thread months ago that if he started to get drunk, run around on his wife, and rob banks for a living (and live this way as a lifestyle) that he would still be going to heaven because he was 'sealed'. Now where this is, I don't know ...it's in one of the older OSAS threads. Maybe you could ask him about that.
My problem with that sort of teaching isn't that I don't realize Gods mercy in certain situations ...my problem is that we should always teach obedience first and foremost. Otherwise we teach things that become a license for sin or that can cause others to stumble.
 
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