Freewill

[Walpole]

I find the only folks who reject free will are Calvinists. It is necessary in order for their theology to work.

Calvinism sees God's sovereignty as determining human will, whereas Christianity sees God's sovereignty as incorporating human will (through infallible foreknowledge).

 

[OzSpen]

I find the only folks who reject free will are Calvinists. It is necessary in order for their theology to work.

Calvinism sees God's sovereignty as determining human will, whereas Christianity sees God's sovereignty as incorporating human will (through infallible foreknowledge).

And amazing prevenient grace. See Titus 2:11.

How to interpret ‘appeared’ in Titus 2:11

 

[Boaz]

Calvinists aren't rejecting free will in the sense of man being able to make choices. Obviously we make choices every second of every day. They are saying the will is not free. It is not the will that freely makes choices, it is always acted upon. If a person puts a gun to our head and demands our money, we do not want to give them our money but we choose to in order to preserve our life. The threat of violence over rode our true desire, to keep our money.

What Calvinists believe is that after the fall of man we no longer desired to or could choose God. Our depraved self, including our will, had to be acted upon to change that. If we do believe in the saving power of Jesus it is because we were given a new birth(John 3: 1-15). We were made both willing and able to accept Jesus as Savior. And yes there is an element of our choosing in there, but it came AFTER the new birth, not before. We believe because we have been born again, born from above, not we believe and that causes us to be reborn.

 

[Walpole]

Calvinists aren't rejecting free will in the sense of man being able to make choices. Obviously we make choices every second of every day. They are saying the will is not free. It is not the will that freely makes choices, it is always acted upon. If a person puts a gun to our head and demands our money, we do not want to give them our money but we choose to in order to preserve our life. The threat of violence over rode our true desire, to keep our money.

What Calvinists believe is that after the fall of man we no longer desired to or could choose God. Our depraved self, including our will, had to be acted upon to change that. If we do believe in the saving power of Jesus it is because we were given a new birth(John 3: 1-15). We were made both willing and able to accept Jesus as Savior. And yes there is an element of our choosing in there, but it came AFTER the new birth, not before. We believe because we have been born again, born from above, not we believe and that causes us to be reborn.

So all that "seek and ye shall find" stuff, along with "believe" and "have faith" is just poetic language? Man is not really capable of choosing to seek, believe or have faith after all?

What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not capable of doing? A cruel monster, that's what type of God would do that.


One does not seek unless one chooses to seek. Seeking, like making any choice, is something one does. In other words, it is a positive act of the will. Some seek, some don't. Some, after seeking, choose faith. Others don't.

Calvin admitted his doctrine of total depravity with is views on free will were completely novel and contradicted the belief of the early Christians...

"For under the second head, where [the early Christians] treat of Original Sin, they declare that free will, though impaired in its powers and biased, is not however extinguished. I will not dispute about a name, but since they contend that liberty has by no means been extinguished, they certainly understand that the human will has still some power left to choose good." (John Calvin, in John Calvin: Selections from His Writings, pg. 159)

Source

 

[for_his_glory]

Calvinists aren't rejecting free will in the sense of man being able to make choices. Obviously we make choices every second of every day. They are saying the will is not free. It is not the will that freely makes choices, it is always acted upon. If a person puts a gun to our head and demands our money, we do not want to give them our money but we choose to in order to preserve our life. The threat of violence over rode our true desire, to keep our money.

What Calvinists believe is that after the fall of man we no longer desired to or could choose God. Our depraved self, including our will, had to be acted upon to change that. If we do believe in the saving power of Jesus it is because we were given a new birth(John 3: 1-15). We were made both willing and able to accept Jesus as Savior. And yes there is an element of our choosing in there, but it came AFTER the new birth, not before. We believe because we have been born again, born from above, not we believe and that causes us to be reborn.

Hi Reformed05 and welcome to CF

Actually it is God that calls us to Him as we hear His calling and by His grace through faith we believe in Him and are Spiritually renewed again as we confess and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We can only become a child of God through faith that is Christ as we believe He truly is the Son of God.

 

[OzSpen]

Calvinists aren't rejecting free will in the sense of man being able to make choices. Obviously we make choices every second of every day. They are saying the will is not free. It is not the will that freely makes choices, it is always acted upon. If a person puts a gun to our head and demands our money, we do not want to give them our money but we choose to in order to preserve our life. The threat of violence over rode our true desire, to keep our money.

What Calvinists believe is that after the fall of man we no longer desired to or could choose God. Our depraved self, including our will, had to be acted upon to change that. If we do believe in the saving power of Jesus it is because we were given a new birth(John 3: 1-15). We were made both willing and able to accept Jesus as Savior. And yes there is an element of our choosing in there, but it came AFTER the new birth, not before. We believe because we have been born again, born from above, not we believe and that causes us to be reborn.

Reformed,

So, Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he stated:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" (Matt 23:37 ESV)​

Jesus wasn't Reformed enough for your liking because 'it is not the will that freely makes choices, it is always acted upon' (your view).

Jesus knew the people of Jerusalem had the ability to say, 'No', as he describes them as those 'who were not willing'.

Oz

 

[Boaz]

So all that "seek and ye shall find" stuff, along with "believe" and "have faith" is just poetic language? Man is not really capable of choosing to seek, believe or have faith after all?

What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not capable of doing? A cruel monster, that's what type of God would do that.


One does not seek unless one chooses to seek. Seeking, like making any choice, is something one does. In other words, it is a positive act of the will. Some seek, some don't. Some, after seeking, choose faith. Others don't.

Calvin admitted his doctrine of total depravity with is views on free will were completely novel and contradicted the belief of the early Christians...

"For under the second head, where [the early Christians] treat of Original Sin, they declare that free will, though impaired in its powers and biased, is not however extinguished. I will not dispute about a name, but since they contend that liberty has by no means been extinguished, they certainly understand that the human will has still some power left to choose good." (John Calvin, in John Calvin: Selections from His Writings, pg. 159)

Source

None of the words Jesus spoke were merely poetic language. He did often speak in parables and made analogies. There are plenty of His words that unequivocally put forth God's doing the choosing, way to many to put forth here.

To say that man is unable to choose God of his own free will is not the same thing as saying man can't make any choices. As to what kind of God would ask us to do what we cannot, the answer is the God that is. We have only ourselves to blame. That is the grace part of saved by Grace. If you are saved, and I assume you are, that is something to be profoundly grateful to God for. Why is it so important that you did it of your own free will? To me I get a much deeper knowledge of the love that God has personally for me when I realize that I did not choose Him, He chose me. When I know that I love God because He first loved me. The crucifixion of Jesus drops me to my knees when I understand that every step He took on earth, and as he hung on that cross, He knew my very name and everything about me and was dying for me anyway.

The quote from Calvin does not include what early Christains he was talking about but it was not the New Testament church. The Epistles are full of this teaching.

 

[Walpole]

None of the words Jesus spoke were merely poetic language. He did often speak in parables and made analogies. There are plenty of His words that unequivocally put forth God's doing the choosing, way to many to put forth here.

To say that man is unable to choose God of his own free will is not the same thing as saying man can't make any choices. As to what kind of God would ask us to do what we cannot, the answer is the God that is. We have only ourselves to blame. That is the grace part of saved by Grace. If you are saved, and I assume you are, that is something to be profoundly grateful to God for. Why is it so important that you did it of your own free will? To me I get a much deeper knowledge of the love that God has personally for me when I realize that I did not choose Him, He chose me. When I know that I love God because He first loved me. The crucifixion of Jesus drops me to my knees when I understand that every step He took on earth, and as he hung on that cross, He knew my very name and everything about me and was dying for me anyway.

The quote from Calvin does not include what early Christains he was talking about but it was not the New Testament church. The Epistles are full of this teaching.

There is no need to seek if God is compelling. Hence the words of Jesus would be absurd if man was not able to seek, to believe and to have faith.

The Gospels are full of Jesus instructing people to seek, to believe and to have faith. By contrast, there are no verses where Jesus says, "Zap! Here's some seeking...Here's some belief...Here's some faith!"

 

[Boaz]

Reformed,

So, Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he stated:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" (Matt 23:37 ESV)​

Jesus wasn't Reformed enough for your liking because 'it is not the will that freely makes choices, it is always acted upon' (your view).

Jesus knew the people of Jerusalem had the ability to say, 'No', as he describes them as those 'who were not willing'.

Oz

Don't presume to tell me what Jesus is like for me.
Does your will run around doing things of it's own free will? Tell me any time it wasn't acted upon?

This is what I don't understand. Whenever God is said to choose instead of we did it all by ourselves, people get so angry about it. They will fight and argue and insult, anything to not accept that God is sovereign over us. They want their free will at all costs. Why is that?

 

[Anto9us2]

Why does the concept of free will seem to negate the sovereignty of God ( in some people's minds )?

What is the problem with God being SOVEREIGN ENOUGH to grant man free will?

God is sovereign - and God has decided that man has free will.

Many scriptures speak of Man "choosing".

 

[Walpole]

Why does the concept of free will seem to negate the sovereignty of God ( in some people's minds )?

What is the problem with God being SOVEREIGN ENOUGH to grant man free will?

God is sovereign - and God has decided that man has free will.

Many scriptures speak of Man "choosing".

If man is not free, he cannot not culpable for his actions, whether they be good or evil acts. Thus man cannot be rewarded for good acts, nor condemned for evil acts. You cannot have a moral universe without being free. This means man cannot choose to believe and have faith as well as love, for all are acts of the will.

Paradoxically, to believe otherwise makes the Incarnation itself an act contra-Logos.

 

[OzSpen]

Don't presume to tell me what Jesus is like for me.
Does your will run around doing things of it's own free will? Tell me any time it wasn't acted upon?

This is what I don't understand. Whenever God is said to choose instead of we did it all by ourselves, people get so angry about it. They will fight and argue and insult, anything to not accept that God is sovereign over us. They want their free will at all costs. Why is that?

Reformed05,

You did not respond to what I wrote about Matthew 23:37. Why?

In your answer to me here, you have invented things about my beliefs that are not true. You are only new to this site and you have not stated accurately what I believe or put it in the form of questions. e.g.

• 'Does your will run around doing things of it's own free will?'
• 'Whenever God is said to choose instead of we did it all by ourselves, people get so angry about it'. Did I get angry at you? I don't believe so?
• 'they will fight and argue and insult'. Did I do that to you? Certainly not.
• 'anything to not accept that God is sovereign over us'. I did not challenge that theology. I believe in the sovereignty of God.
• 'They want their free will at all costs. Why is that?' That is not my position. Why have you created a straw man about my beliefs?

Oz

 

[Anto9us2]

" Who told you that you were naked, Adam? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? "

( And of course God knew the answer was Yes ).

Man's free will is evident - man was not prevented from choosing to disobey. God's sovereignty is evident in CONSEQUENCES - there are consequences for Adam, Eve and the Serpent.

God's sovereignty and man's free will operate both before and after the Fall in the same way, Joshua saying "Choose" to the people later on, or the people of Jerusalem refusing to comply with Jesus' longing for them to accept - both principles of free will and God's sovereignty stand the same on both sides of the Fall.

 

[OzSpen]

Freewill is always an interesting topic! Personally, through the years I've summed up freewill like this.

First, what is freewill? I see it as the ability to autonomously make a choice from our own will. Without freewill, one would only have the illusion they had a say in any matter when in reality, they didn't. In short, without freewill one is reduced to being a puppet with the inability to make any choice, weather it being obeying Gods commands or when to stop pouring the milk into your cereal bowl.

However, I do see a paradox with freewill because while we can make choices and decisions, we can only do so with that which God created. As a result, our choices are limited and because they are limited, we really aren't free to do as we will.

God asks Paul, "How long will you continue to kick against the goads", which is to say, " How long will you continually make decisions that only cause you pain and suffering"?

So is see that God has set in place through His creation a means to guide us toward His will and abandon our will that we would live in harmony with Him.

SB,

Simply stated, the nature of human free will or of human free choice is, according to Norman Geisler, ‘the power of contrary choice’ (Geisler 2003:444). This is a basic and simple definition: ‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’ and it is not taken away from human beings by God’s sovereignty.

When we ask, ‘What is the nature of free will or free choice?’ we may be asking: How long is a piece of string in theological terms? If we are going to answer this question with biblical accuracy, we will need to ask further questions about:

1. Free will / free choice and the power of God (see Isa 45:11-13; 46:4; Jer 32:16-44; Acts 4:24-31);
2. Free choice and the decrees of God (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:9, 11; 3:11);
3. Free choice and the salvation of human beings (Tit 2:11; Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:3; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 16:31; 17:30; Phil 1:39; 1 Jn 3:23);
4. Free choice as it is related to God’s providence (Jas 4:2);
5. Free choice and God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29-30; 2 Cor 6:1-2; 1 Pt 1:1-2);
6. Free choice and a human being’s moral nature (Jn 1:12-13; 7:17; Rom 3:26; Heb 3:7-8, 15; 4);
7. Free choice and Adam’s original sin (the origin of the sin of the human race) [Gen 3:1-8; Rom 5:12-19; 1 Cor 15:21-22; 1 Tim 2:13-14];
8. Free choice and human depravity (Deut 6:4-5; Matt 22:35-38; Rom 2:14; 7:18; 8:14; 2 Tim 3:4);
9. Free choice and eternal security/perseverance of the saints (Jer 3:12, 14, 22; Hos 14:4; Mt 24:13; Mk 4:16-17; 7:21-23; Jn 6:66-67; 13:10-11; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31; 2 Pt 2:20-22; 1 Jn 2:19) [based on Thiessen 1949:524].

Oz

References

Geisler, N 2003. Systematic theology: God, creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse.

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[Anto9us2]

There is a FALSE DICHOTOMY of

free will vs. God's sovereignty

That is somehow brought up as if it is absolutely incompatible that both concepts coexist. But they DO coexist.

God ordains both.

 

[Anto9us2]

Depravity, a "fallen nature", original sin --
They didn't come into play for Adam - he was unfallen, there was no depravity at the time, but he chose to disobey just the same. Now we are fallen, and "depraved" in a way not everyone agrees with, but we still have free will, and God is still sovereign

We are even more depraved in thinking we can go back in time and speculate that God DECREED this or that in what order -

Supralapsarian, Infralapsarian, and all of that - but God's first DECREE was "let there be light"

 

[OzSpen]

There is a FALSE DICHOTOMY of

free will vs. God's sovereignty

That is somehow brought up as if it is absolutely incompatible that both concepts coexist. But they DO coexist.

God ordains both.

Anto,

For me to understand this theology, I need your help with biblical exposition. I'm not denying it but you provided no Scripture to explain it.

Oz

 

[Anto9us2]

In posts 5 and 6 I gave scriptures about God telling us to choose. As for God's sovereignty, there is Isaiah 45:7.

There, "evil" could be translated "calamity".

 

[OzSpen]

In posts 5 and 6 I gave scriptures about God telling us to choose. As for God's sovereignty, there is Isaiah 45:7.

There, "evil" could be translated "calamity".

Anto,

In Isa 45:7, the Hebrew ra should not be translated as 'evil', i.e. 'I, the Lord ... create evil' (KJV), but should be correctly translated as, 'I, the Lord ... create calamity/disaster'.

I examine some details in: Isaiah 45:7: Who or what is the origin of evil?

See also, Did God create evil?


Oz

 

[Randy]

Freewill is always an interesting topic! Personally, through the years I've summed up freewill like this.

First, what is freewill? I see it as the ability to autonomously make a choice from our own will. Without freewill, one would only have the illusion they had a say in any matter when in reality, they didn't. In short, without freewill one is reduced to being a puppet with the inability to make any choice, weather it being obeying Gods commands or when to stop pouring the milk into your cereal bowl.

However, I do see a paradox with freewill because while we can make choices and decisions, we can only do so with that which God created. As a result, our choices are limited and because they are limited, we really aren't free to do as we will.

God asks Paul, "How long will you continue to kick against the goads", which is to say, " How long will you continually make decisions that only cause you pain and suffering"?

So is see that God has set in place through His creation a means to guide us toward His will and abandon our will that we would live in harmony with Him.

In regard to Paul He was set aside at birth before He had done good or bad.

But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.

Even so Jesus waited until He accepted the assignment.
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”
“Yes, Lord,” he answered.
The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”