Freewill

[jasonc]

I think what you are saying is called "enabled".

God enabled me to believe...and when I went looking for Him He found me.

Maybe something along those lines?

It would be Calvinist view ,not,that. I disagree.but that is what is taught .

 

[JohnDB]

It would be Calvinist view ,not,that. I disagree.but that is what is taught .

From what I've been led to believe...
The Calvinists don't believe in free will because of their belief in "Irresistible grace" or the "I" in TULIP and tend to believe that God is the cause behind every scratch of your nose.

Where they do have a healthy respect for God's Sovereignty...I think they carry it too far. I'm not exactly sure how they justify an altar call though...and every Calvinist church I've visited usually has one.

 

[jasonc]

From what I've been led to believe...
The Calvinists don't believe in free will because of their belief in "Irresistible grace" or the "I" in TULIP and tend to believe that God is the cause behind every scratch of your nose.

Where they do have a healthy respect for God's Sovereignty...I think they carry it too far. I'm not exactly sure how they justify an altar call though...and every Calvinist church I've visited usually has one.

You really don't understand that,

We have God who doesn't have to but decided to save you,you,can't want to be His until,he at first reveals himself .

No,my church being Calvinist doesn't teach what you say.in fact the opposite .don't confuse Calvinist and hyper Calvinist ,arminism goes as bad to where God really doesnt know the future .

The idea of irresistible grace being and a church believing in eternal security is a contradiction in that if you can resist grace but somehow repent and stray pretty far and God will still get you to heaven despite you rejected Him,falling away ,is strange .

 

[jasonc]

I gets even stranger with that.if you do fall away ,despite being out in sin your works will be burned at the bema seat ,but still see heaven,ignoring the warnings of Jesus talkimg about forgive and he shall be forgiven and the opposite.I have heard the other then Calvinist yet believers in eternal security say that .

 

[JLB]

Well there is the notion of conditioning.

IOW we can condition animals to perform a predetermined behavior.

Prime Example is the rodeo.
The Snake River Stampede is one such rodeo that is still going on today. I grew up in Boise Idaho where many of my friends and even family members would participate. Quarter horses were every girl's dream of owning so they could barrel ride faster and better.

Guys roped cattle.
Now cattle/calf roping is just as much the horse as it is the cowboy doing it. The Horse does the heavy, hard work but the cowboy just works the rope.
Girls wanted to join in the fun of calf roping competition...as many of them worked a family farm and did just as much as the men.
But during the rodeo they went all mysogenist on the women...they couldn't do that.
instead the women were allowed to rope goats.

So...the young women practiced.
The thing about women practicing roping goats is that it is a matter of timing. A goat goes into the chute and someone smaks its backside and opens the gate and the goat goes running into the corral. The girl gets her timing down and throws the rope, ties it off to her saddle horn and the horse stands firm knowing whats coming. Maybe even pulling back a little.
The goat has the rope around it's neck and when it gets tight falls over so the girl can tie up it's feet.

Now if a girl has practiced with a goat too much...(this is the part where conditioning comes in)
The goat goes running out of the chute into the corral and even if the girl misses the goat the goat will jerk it's head and fall over at the conditioned place in the corral.

People ain't much different. When introduced to the same circumstances with the same conditions we fall over whether there is a rope around our necks or not. (sheep do the very same thing)
Consequently, many of your "cowboys" in Idaho are nicknamed "Goat-Ropers"

So...
Free Will is there for us. But for some people it is going to be almost impossible for them to take advantage of it. And that can be something as simple as peer pressure.
Such was the pharisees...
Such is us today. 2,000 and we haven't evolved one lick.

Amen.



But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 1 Timothy 4:7





JLB

 

[rstrats]

JohnDB,
re:How you deduced this is way beyond my understanding."

You said "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. By your love for one another they will know you are my disciples." Where does free will come in here?

 

[JLB]

JohnDB,
re:How you deduced this is way beyond my understanding."

You said "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. By your love for one another they will know you are my disciples." Where does free will come in here?

How does one purify their heart?




JLB

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB,
re:How you deduced this is way beyond my understanding."

You said "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. By your love for one another they will know you are my disciples." Where does free will come in here?

How does one purify their heart?




JLB

This beatitude is often said as "Holy" of heart...
But the double entendre is inferred in this poetic line.

Pure of heart is a reference to the common expression today of "Single-mindedness".

To approach everything with one objective, every action a person takes surrounds a single thought or goal...much like an Olympic Athlete does in order to compete...every morsel of food, ounce of water, and moment of sleep is taken just so they can compete better in the games. They are all consumed with winning the gold medal in their desired field.
Now if a person focuses their every thought and action with the whole objective of being pleasing to God...then they see God's activities everywhere.
Everyone has become single minded about something at some point in their lives...so everyone can become holy of heart. But most people choose not to because of the cost to their personal lives and careers. Or if they do become holy of heart it's for a limited time because a variety of reasons (responsibilities, financial reasons, health reasons)

Part of the Holy of heart is loving your fellow man without looking down your nose at them. Easier said than done. But compassion is also a learned response, just like self-righteousness. (Lack of Grace) I can choose to learn either one I want. I can either believe I'm "extra special" or that I'm one part of a group that is very important. (Wholy/Holy important) And that collectively we, together can turn a ride.

Again... another choice...one that isn't exactly going today in our long term best interests.

Free Will is everywhere in the Gospel message...

 

[JLB]

Free Will is everywhere in the Gospel message...

Amen.




JLB

 

[Boaz]

I think what you are saying is called "enabled".

God enabled me to believe...and when I went looking for Him He found me.

Maybe something along those lines?

Just an observation. If God enabled you to believe He didn't need to "find" you when you went looking for Him. He must have been right there. Totally sovereign in the entire process?

 

[Boaz]

From what I've been led to believe...
The Calvinists don't believe in free will because of their belief in "Irresistible grace" or the "I" in TULIP and tend to believe that God is the cause behind every scratch of your nose.

Where they do have a healthy respect for God's Sovereignty...I think they carry it too far. I'm not exactly sure how they justify an altar call though...and every Calvinist church I've visited usually has one.

They have an altar call because that is pretty much the way it's done today. Didn't used to be the way. The congregation, including the children, those who attended church which in times past was a majority, heard the true gospel message, the things that save. At some point, different for everyone, they believed or they did not.
Now we have the altar call and in my experience it comes after no teaching of saving content. Only offers of what Jesus will give you in this life if you INVITE (really?) Jesus into your life. Which has the potential of false conversions. See the parable of the soils. If anyone IS saved at these altar calls, according to Calvinist teaching, it is because God saves who He wills and how He wills. Hopefully in C churches the proper content is taught before the altar call.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

God asks Paul, "How long will you continue to kick against the goads", which is to say, " How long will you continually make decisions that only cause you pain and suffering"?

Its true, when someone tries to offend and hurt God is when they hurt themselves.

 

[stovebolts]

Its true, when someone tries to offend and hurt God is when they hurt themselves.

IMO
And there in lies the key to begin understanding, James.

James 1:2-4
English Standard Version

Testing of Your Faith
2 (A)Count it all joy, my brothers,[a] when you meet trials (B)of various kinds, 3 for you know that (C)the testing of your faith (D)produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be (E)perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

We can either go through a trial holding a grudge against God, or we can believe it's God shaping us into His image.