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Your entire post makes absolutely no sense (especially this little tid-bit).

I think it doesn't make sense to you because you've misunderstand the context of that tidbit. The tidbit you selected is based on an series of exchanges which started from post# 10 of this thread. JohnDB said he thought the message in the video was antiChrist.
I asked him (twice) to explain how he thought a God or money topic could be AntiChrist, but I'm guessing he realized that'd be a losing strategy so he just ignored it. If he's interested, I'd still like to hear his explanation for that.
 
Jesus didn't say the taxes were to be ignored. He said, "Pay to Caesar what is due."

The context here is that of people trying to trap Jesus in his words. Jesus sprung the trap by giving people the freedom to hear what they want to hear. The full teaching is, "Give to Caesar what belongs to him, and give to God what belongs to him".

People who love money will only hear the first part. People who love God will hear the second part and conclude that after we've given to God everything that belongs to him, there would be nothing left for Caesar.

Here's an example of Jesus paying tax using money.

Two things here: Peter had already lied to the tax collectors that Jesus pays tax. When he came back to the house Jesus prevented him from entering, to sort it out. He asks who the kings of the earth take their taxes from, and peter rightly answers "from strangers". Jesus concludes that this makes the children free. People who follow Jesus are the children. We don't owe the worldly kingdoms of this planet anything. Our allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven. After all, taxes are the counterfeit of the kingdom of Heaven. Why should we need a law forcing us to help one another when Jesus has already told us to use our whole lives to do so?

He finishes with, "but, to make sure your mistake doesn't come back to haunt our ministry (i.e. Peter said Jesus pays the tax but he actually doesn't), go fish and God will provide what we need to fix your mistake". So Peter goes fishing and miraculously finds a coin.

The lesson here is that even if we find ourselves in a situation where we must interact with the worldly system, we should not think we can only deal with it by compromising on the teachings of Jesus.
 
No, that will not help you to better understand
It will, you have judged everybody here who works for money but when asked how/if you are applying this to your life you can't come up with an answer. If you have so much faith in your beliefs please tell us how you make a living without money and how you even paid for the device you are writing this on?

Thank you,
 
If I may, and I don't mean to insult, but in all honesty when I read your posts, I can't help but picture a preacher with his lavish $1,000.00 tuxedo arriving in his new Porsche, surrounded by a plethora of body guards and lights and glitter and preaching about the ills of money. I don't like the image and would like to change it.

I do feel insulted, but not for the reason you think. I think if you're honest with yourself you don't have this image of me at all. This is just another strategy to get me talking about myself. It is an appeal to my pride, "No WIP, please don't think badly of me. I'll talk about myself. I'll tell you how good I really am. I tell you anything you want to know; just please don't think poorly of me!".

It is precisely because this description you've presented is so egregiously opposite to what I've been saying all along that you feel it will be successful in tempting me to talk about myself.

It's immature and quite frankly, it's spiritually dangerous. What if you did succeed in getting me to talk about how good I actually am? You would be responsible for tempting a brother to boast about himself and I would be held responsible for falling for it.

I can imagine myself standing before God and he says to me, "You were doing so well when you talked about the teachings of my son, but then you started trying to justify yourself to those people. Don't you remember that I said people will say all kinds of nasty things about you when you promote me? You should have been rejoicing instead of giving in to your fears about what other people will think of you".

Jesus is the cornerstone and he is the only one worthy of our attention. Let's talk about his teachings.
 
If you have so much faith in your beliefs please tell us how you make a living without money and how you even paid for the device you are writing this on?

This is exactly my point; the topic is not about my faith. The topic is the teachings of Jesus. What did he say about our relationship to money and materialism and what should we, as individuals, be doing about it?

Jesus is the cornerstone. Let's talk about his teachings.
 
Let's talk about his teachings.
We are, I'm asking that you show us how you or anyone applies this to their life? Because without money you can't buy a house, food, water, clothes, or a car to get around. So how does someone live without money? From what I've seen you haven't answered this.
 
I do feel insulted, but not for the reason you think. I think if you're honest with yourself you don't have this image of me at all. This is just another strategy to get me talking about myself. It is an appeal to my pride, "No WIP, please don't think badly of me. I'll talk about myself. I'll tell you how good I really am. I tell you anything you want to know; just please don't think poorly of me!".

It is precisely because this description you've presented is so egregiously opposite to what I've been saying all along that you feel it will be successful in tempting me to talk about myself.

It's immature and quite frankly, it's spiritually dangerous. What if you did succeed in getting me to talk about how good I actually am? You would be responsible for tempting a brother to boast about himself and I would be held responsible for falling for it.

I can imagine myself standing before God and he says to me, "You were doing so well when you talked about the teachings of my son, but then you started trying to justify yourself to those people. Don't you remember that I said people will say all kinds of nasty things about you when you promote me? You should have been rejoicing instead of giving in to your fears about what other people will think of you".

Jesus is the cornerstone and he is the only one worthy of our attention. Let's talk about his teachings.
I already told you my motive for asking. But, I'll say it again in the hopes you'll hear me this time. I want you to answer my questions and share how you do it so I can learn from you. If you are unable to share, you are coming across as a clanging gong to me because you sound hypocritical. I'm just trying to be as honest as I can so you fully understand where I'm coming from.
 
Because without money you can't buy a house, food, water, clothes, or a car to get around.

Yes, without money you cannot buy. This is different from saying you cannot have these things without money. Money only exists, and only has value, because we choose to make it so. Houses, food, water, clothing and cars do not exist because money exists. Money does not cause these things to exist. We need to at least start from that basic principle. Money does not create anything.

Jesus is talking about a kingdom where money is no longer the motivation for why we work. In his kingdom we do not work for material gain; we work for the benefit of one another. It's all about motivation. Because money does not create anything, we can still have all the wonders of technology and industry we have now. We could actually have much more without money. Money is the reason why progress is so often suppressed. New forms of technology, especially in the area of energy, are often suppressed in favor of keeping the old, more lucrative industries in tact. One example of this is advancements in solar and wind technology. Instead, we're still stuck on dirty fossil fuels because it is more profitable to those who already control such resources. It's a natural reaction, right? Change from one source of energy to another necessarily means less profit for the old. Check out lobbying vs bribery if you want to see how it works in practical reality.

On the other hand, if people were taught to work for the benefit of one another, they'd be no reason to stifle progress for the sake of profit. We would be enjoying a much better quality of life by now. Money is a counterfeit to real life. The only reason we believe we can't live without it is because we've been trained to think that way. Yes, choosing to support a different system will be difficult. We'd be few going against many. But so what? Isn't living a life of meaning and integrity better, even if we die?

The more people lament that they must serve mammon for the sake of feeding their family, the more I see the wisdom in both Jesus and Paul teaching that it is better to remain single.

A Christian's job is to be an example of the Kingdom of Heaven. When we live by worldly values but still call ourselves Christian, we only confuse what the Kingdom of Heaven is supposed to be; something different; a better way even if it seems like it fails in the face of so much worldly opposition. That's why JohnDB's comments about failed community are so hurtful. He is like the seed which withered under intense heat. It is as though he blames community for his own failures; a kind of sour grapes. He does not want to discipline himself in a way that can make communal life successful, so he dumps his bitterness on others by telling them communal sharing will only lead to failure.

The alternative he suggests is to work for mammon, and to be proud of just how much top dollar you can make from it. But don't believe him. Living by faith, communal sharing, and working for love is the way, the truth and the life. You will not have communion with God if you cannot have communion with your brothers and sisters.
 
Yes, without money you cannot buy. This is different from saying you cannot have these things without money.
Because you can steal them? Is that from the latest edition of The Squatters' Manifesto?

I'm going to repeat the several request to please enlighten the rest of us as to how you live this saintly existence and how you work only for God.
 
Sometimes doing the wrong thing for the right reason can be right in God's eyes. But that's not really what you're describing here. You're talking about service to mammon while slipping a payment to God here and there to make it all seem ok.

Here's a real-world example to show why this kind of argument just doesn't work. Revelation 13 talks about a Mark which will be used to control all buying and selling. Whatever ideas you may have about when the rapture will happen or what the Mark will look like, the fact is that its purpose will be to control all buying and selling. If you want to take care of your family, if you want to make your car payments, if you want to help that guy in prison, if you want to pay your taxes, if you want to put food on the table and pay all your bills, you will have to take the Mark.

According to the arguments you guys have been using so far, it should be okay for you to take the Mark because it's not like you will love it; you will only use it to feed your family and pay the bills. After all, if you don't work you shouldn't eat and a man who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an infidel, so you've got good reason to take the Mark. God will understand that you're just trying to be a good steward with the blessings he wants to give you and because he knows your heart, he won't blame you for just trying to take care of your family. You may even become a good witness to others who have taken the Mark but who use it selfishly. You can show them how to use it for love. If you don't take the Mark yourself, you wouldn't be able to reach them. They'd think you don't understand or that you think you're better than they are.



You can't have it both ways. If you're working for the purpose of getting something for your work, then you can't say that work is being done for love. Donations and sharing are fantastic ways to express the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, but if you decide that you will only work IF you get payment (of whatever kind) in return, then you'v gone beyond sharing into materialism.

Insisting that your service to mammon is really love because you will use a portion of it to help your family or a stranger in jail is self deception. At least be honest about what it is; if you didn't get paid you wouldn't do the work meaning the purpose of the work is to get money. You may be able to convince yourself that your arguments about it really being work for love are legit, but remember that you will stand before the inventor of all wisdom and knowledge and I doubt he will be fooled by it. It is not enough that you feel convinced; you must be able to convince him and according to the teachings of Jesus you're likely to be one of those people who said, "Lord, I've done many works in your name" and he will say, "I never knew you". The people in this example called him Lord and claimed to do works in his name. They believed they were saved. They had convinced themselves that the part-time help they offered to others here and there was good enough, while the bulk of their time was spent "working iniquity" which sounds pretty bad, but iniquity can be as simple as performing a normal, routine job for the wrong reason.

This argument appears only a few verses after his instructions about living by faith, where he says we cannot work for both God and money at the same time, and then launches into comments telling us to consider the birds and flowers because they do not work for money and yet God takes care of them. He says all the heathens of the world chase after money, but that we should not be like them. Instead, we should seek the kingdom of Heaven, first.



Are the luxury car and designer jeans really what you think God wants you to spend your time and resources on after you've done the bare minimum of taking care of your own kid?



No one is saying that sharing is bad. It's actually a good thing to share with others. Are you familiar with the story of Samuel and King Saul who was commanded to destroy the Amalekites in toto? Saul did attack them and destroyed most of them, but brought the king, the best treasures, and the best animals back with him as a sacrifice for God. When Samuel heard about it he challenged Saul who tried to explain that he was just trying to do a good thing for God and Samuel told him, in essence, to shut up. He told him it is better to obey than to sacrifice. After that, God removed his favor from Saul. He was not impressed with Saul's explanations about sacrifice. He saw right through it because he's not stupid.

What is the point of trying to help others if we are not willing to do it the way God wants us to do it? When you use these examples of the good you've done to justify your choices, it's like you're saying, "yes, Jesus did say that we cannot work for God and money at the same time, BUT Jesus didn't understand that we really can work for both at the same time because money is just a tool and as long as you don't love the money, and as long as you use a bit of it to help people here and there, then it's all good".

Here on this forum, and probably in your church, you're surrounded by people who will agree with you, because they all use the same arguments. You may feel emboldened by this support. You probably feel it is confirmation that you really are on the right track. I understand the sense of comfort that agreement with others can bring.

But when you stand before God you will do so as an individual. God will ask you what you did with the teachings of his son. He will not care about what Paul did or said. He will not care about what your pastors told you. He will not care about what other people on this forum, what your wife, or your kids said to you. And when you try to explain to him that you spent your life in service to mammon because money makes the world go round he will not be impressed.

You are taking a huge risk with these flimsy arguments. The teachings of Jesus will change us. They will cause us to confront our fears. They will cause us to confront our greed. They will cause us to reevaluate everything. Jesus likened obedience to falling on a rock and being broken. It's not a particularly pleasant analogy, but it is an apt description of the kind of feelings and discomfort we feel when we're forced to look at ourselves in the light of Jesus' standards.
Wow, I have to hand it to you, that was quite the response. I wasn't expecting such a reply.

Please forgive me if I dismiss the majority of your reply. I feel as if you seriously misunderstood me or your so narrow on your view that there isn't any room for another's.

That being said, if God has put this on your heart, then please live out your faith in the manner God has shown you.

I think one difference in our conversation is I'm not arguing and neither am i defending my faith or how i live my faith out. What I have done, and will continue to do is share my faith just as you are sharing yours.

I think i understand your point, you dream of a world without money and it seems you see money as the culprit because people can become greedy and selfish with greed as their motivator instead of love.

While money can be a lure to sin, its not evil or wrong in and of itself. Like anything, it can be used for good or bad.

It's not a sin to work for a paycheck and pay the bills one has to pay to live in our culture. Is our culture perfect? Far from it, and even further from being Godly.

So let me ask you this.

Should we work? I mean, is it against God to have a job?
 
Most of the production of a vehicle can be done by robots. Very little needs human hands involved. But the UAW fights a lot of those things.
One only has to look at the decline of UAW workers as automation eliminates their jobs. However, in doing so innovative jobs are created to develop and advance said automation.

My brother talks of a day when we can do what we want and AI will handle our menial tasks and as a result, there will be no need for money.
 
One only has to look at the decline of UAW workers as automation eliminates their jobs. However, in doing so innovative jobs are created to develop and advance said automation.

My brother talks of a day when we can do what we want and AI will handle our menial tasks and as a result, there will be no need for money.
That sounds cool . .and i don't want to be a wet blanket but the dark underbelly of any utopian society is population control. It was even covered in Utopia by Thomas More in the 1500s.
 
Either money or theft. Those are the only two options you can think of? My goodness...
Hi friend. That was sarcasm. So how do you get things without paying for them?
You're flirting with the role of teacher here by telling everyone how they should live, but you've yet to actually teach us how it works, so you're really just judging everyone.
 
That sounds cool . .and i don't want to be a wet blanket but the dark underbelly of any utopian society is population control. It was even covered in Utopia by Thomas More in the 1500s.
I wonder if that is what Logan's run was modeled after?.... Nothing new under the sun!

As far as the concept of utopia, i get it. I just dont ever see it being a reality.
 
Hi friend. That was sarcasm.

So you were being sarcastic about a world where people help one another because they want to rather than because they demand payment?

If I had to list evidence of money loving, I'd say sarcasm about working for love would be right up there at the top.
 
So you were being sarcastic about a world where people help one another because they want to rather than because they demand payment?

If I had to list evidence of money loving, I'd say sarcasm about working for love would be right up there at the top.
No, silly, I was being sarcastic in response to your ever-cryptic statements that you live in a world where people just give you stuff out of the goodness of their heart and that you aren't in anyway working for those things. I mean, even in a commune, there is an implied transaction between all the sharing. Everyone has to pull their weight somehow like by cooking the food other people grow or by washing your fair share of laundry so you can have your fair share of the clothing.

I don't care what you say, but a man who works 50 hours a week as an insurance salesman to support his wife and children is working for love and he is being obedient to God's word.
 
I wonder if that is what Logan's run was modeled after?.... Nothing new under the sun!

As far as the concept of utopia, i get it. I just dont ever see it being a reality.
I haven't seen that one, but is it where they have to die once they reach a certain age?
 
Living by faith, communal sharing, and working for love is the way, the truth and the life. You will not have communion with God if you cannot have communion with your brothers and sisters.

Last I checked, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And you do realize that the majority of his adult life was not spent in the ministry, but in working a job as a carpenter, right?
 
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