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I was being sarcastic in response to your ever-cryptic statements that you live in a world where people just give you stuff out of the goodness of their heart

You mean sharing? Yes, that's what I understood you to be sarcastic about. I'm saying sarcasm about sharing is evidence of money-loving.

I mean, even in a commune, there is an implied transaction between all the sharing.

No, sharing is not a transaction. Here's what a Christian commune looks like:

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart. Acts 2:44-46

and...

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Acts 4:34-37.

I don't care what you say, but a man who works 50 hours a week as an insurance salesman to support his wife and children is working for love and he is being obedient to God's word.

There is no question about our need to work. No one has said we should not work. If you weren't so busy not caring about what I say you'd probably have an easier time understanding my position. Why we work is all important; the motivation.

God or money.
 
Hi all. Over on a couple different threads the topic of Jesus and money has come up consistently so it seems worth starting a thread dealing with just that one issue. To start things off, I'd like to post a short (12 minute) video which details the issue well, though I don't mind if you'd like to comment on the topic without watching the video. I'll paste a short explanation for the video below it, as well. Let me know what you think!


Most of us know that greed is a sin, but Jesus took it much further. He challenged our motivation for work. The New Testament says “covetousness is idolatry”. So the love of money and idols have much in common. God hates them both! Jesus says the ultimate choice is whether we are going to work for God, or work for the purpose of getting money.; we cannot serve God AND mammon at the same time. Which have you chosen: God or money? Maybe it's time to get a different employer!

That was interesting, and it made some good points. Even before I recommitted my life to God after He saved my life in that accident in 2009, I was already starting to figure out that... we do not need money as much as people say. I was looking back at my life, and saw all of the up times and down times, and it occured to me that...we never missed any meals, I've had a heck of a lot of utility shut off notices in my lifetime, but...they don't really wind up getting shut off. I noticed that things always seem to have a way of working out. I actually even sort of tested it before a little.

It always came to mind, when I wanted to buy something, so I'd look at the bills that are due or past due and the state of the income at that particular time and I would always realize that, no I can not afford to buy that new gun or whatever. I had bills first. But I would have bills afterward too. The bills never go away. So a few times, I just, "took" the money for a new toy with the thought that, will they make a payment arrangement with me for what I owe? Of course they will make a payment arrangement, that's what they do! The bills never go away so if I wanted something I would have to take the money and [play catch up on the bill which they always let me do. Communication is everything.

Now years later I have learned that it has always been the Lord helping me, even when I would not walk with Him. A testament to the Lord's love and long-suffering. When the Lord blesses us, He wants us to go bless another, and that is what we do. Freely we have been given so we freely give.

When we become free and declare our independence from the world, and we commit ourselves to God...it is declaring our dependence upon God. So we are to look to God for 100% of all of our sustenance and everything. That is what the Israelite's had to do in the desert, and they did, and it rained Manna for them, every day.

We do not need money. Money is a deception. When we look to God, and obey His will (which is to care for and help each other in love), then no money would be needed, no government handouts, no food stamps, nothing. The Lord takes care of His own. And we do too. See how they did it back in the old testament times? Everything was apportioned and divided among the people according to numbers and so forth. Evenly, fairly. With all, looking to God.

It's nice to have money. You can do stuff with it. But we don't really need it to survive. I bet there will be manna raining and even food multiplication going on in the near future here on earth. When God's children who do not take the mark of the beast can not go to the store...God will feed them. He will not forsake us!
 
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10



Just sayn, from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Yes, and i have spoken from my heart which is a reflection of how i live my faith. What we do either makes this world a better place, or it allows the chaos.

If you have any recommendations how i can live a better life, i would be interested in hearing your opinion.
 
Yes, without money you cannot buy. This is different from saying you cannot have these things without money. Money only exists, and only has value, because we choose to make it so. Houses, food, water, clothing and cars do not exist because money exists. Money does not cause these things to exist. We need to at least start from that basic principle. Money does not create anything.

Jesus is talking about a kingdom where money is no longer the motivation for why we work. In his kingdom we do not work for material gain; we work for the benefit of one another. It's all about motivation. Because money does not create anything, we can still have all the wonders of technology and industry we have now. We could actually have much more without money. Money is the reason why progress is so often suppressed. New forms of technology, especially in the area of energy, are often suppressed in favor of keeping the old, more lucrative industries in tact. One example of this is advancements in solar and wind technology. Instead, we're still stuck on dirty fossil fuels because it is more profitable to those who already control such resources. It's a natural reaction, right? Change from one source of energy to another necessarily means less profit for the old. Check out lobbying vs bribery if you want to see how it works in practical reality.

On the other hand, if people were taught to work for the benefit of one another, they'd be no reason to stifle progress for the sake of profit. We would be enjoying a much better quality of life by now. Money is a counterfeit to real life. The only reason we believe we can't live without it is because we've been trained to think that way. Yes, choosing to support a different system will be difficult. We'd be few going against many. But so what? Isn't living a life of meaning and integrity better, even if we die?

The more people lament that they must serve mammon for the sake of feeding their family, the more I see the wisdom in both Jesus and Paul teaching that it is better to remain single.

A Christian's job is to be an example of the Kingdom of Heaven. When we live by worldly values but still call ourselves Christian, we only confuse what the Kingdom of Heaven is supposed to be; something different; a better way even if it seems like it fails in the face of so much worldly opposition. That's why JohnDB's comments about failed community are so hurtful. He is like the seed which withered under intense heat. It is as though he blames community for his own failures; a kind of sour grapes. He does not want to discipline himself in a way that can make communal life successful, so he dumps his bitterness on others by telling them communal sharing will only lead to failure.

The alternative he suggests is to work for mammon, and to be proud of just how much top dollar you can make from it. But don't believe him. Living by faith, communal sharing, and working for love is the way, the truth and the life. You will not have communion with God if you cannot have communion with your brothers and sisters.
First off, you dont know John like I do, and I'll not tolerate, let alone allow you to slander his good name. That's not what we're about on this site.

Let me tell you what i know about John that he isn't going to tell you.

First, John is an honorable man. He is a man of integrity and honesty. John is very much involved in community and making this world a better place to live.

While you rail against money, John is taking advantage of the difference money can bring.

Johns heart is in missionary work and serving his community in various ways. John is a skilled worker who's trade is not only in demand, but also pays well, because of his mastery in his trade, John is able to demand a high wage. He is also able to pick and choose the jobs he does.

John would rather spend his time helping community, but he understands money pays the bills. He also understands money is what allows him to go on mission trips. It is within this context i understand Johns words you have misunderstood. You owe him an apology.

If you asked John, would you rather work at your job or help community or mission trips, he would answer the latter.

So, if your up for covering all the expenses John needs so he can devote himself to his passion in ministry, I'm sure he would accept your generous donation.

I see John much in the same way I see the Apostle Paul. Paul had a passion for ministry, but he understood money was required. As not to be a burden to others financially, Paul worked as a tent maker to support his own ministry.

As far as your comment on communal life and the versus you quoted, Paul has to collect donations from wealthier communities to support those who gave everything so no one would be without need. In other words, those resources ran out and now they are a burden on the community at large.

My brothers girlfriend grew up in a religious commune in the Arkansas mountains. I wonder why she doesnt romanticize it like you do.
 
One only has to look at the decline of UAW workers as automation eliminates their jobs. However, in doing so innovative jobs are created to develop and advance said automation.

My brother talks of a day when we can do what we want and AI will handle our menial tasks and as a result, there will be no need for money.
AI systems still need maintenance so unless people are willing to to the maintenance without compensation then I can see this as something john darling could be talking about.

I just think that what john darling is speaking of goes much further than just money and that is where I think he is hung up. As I read what he posts and see the way he responds to others I am becoming more and more concerned that perhaps it just might be he that is struggling with money and it is ruling his life more than he wants to admit.

It would be wonderful, and will be when we arrive in heaven, for everyone to be able to live as just one large family sharing the gifts God has given us without our own greed getting in the way; no longer concerning ourselves about getting fair compensation for what we do for others. But, as you have already pointed out, we also have a responsibility not to be a burden on others too. If we don't give generously and are irresponsible with our gifts, then we place burdens on others and that too is greed.
 
AI systems still need maintenance so unless people are willing to to the maintenance without compensation then I can see this as something john darling could be talking about.

I just think that what john darling is speaking of goes much further than just money and that is where I think he is hung up. As I read what he posts and see the way he responds to others I am becoming more and more concerned that perhaps it just might be he that is struggling with money and it is ruling his life more than he wants to admit.

It would be wonderful, and will be when we arrive in heaven, for everyone to be able to live as just one large family sharing the gifts God has given us without our own greed getting in the way; no longer concerning ourselves about getting fair compensation for what we do for others. But, as you have already pointed out, we also have a responsibility not to be a burden on others too. If we don't give generously and are irresponsible with our gifts, then we place burdens on others and that too is greed.
Very well said and i think many of us hold the same sentiment.

My brother is similar in thinking to the OP and he and I have discussed this very topic numerous times. He is on disability which is meager. For years he touted how happy his life was, and i am truly thankful that he is living his life in a way he enjoys.

But for years, there was always strife between us and i felt belittled by him because of our different lifestyles. Thankfully those differences were settled and he doesn't seem to be competing with me on whos living a more fulfilling life.
 
We do not need money. Money is a deception. When we look to God, and obey His will (which is to care for and help each other in love), then no money would be needed, no government handouts, no food stamps, nothing. The Lord takes care of His own. And we do too. See how they did it back in the old testament times? Everything was apportioned and divided among the people according to numbers and so forth. Evenly, fairly. With all, looking to God.

Hi Edward. Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I get that we humans have set up a society where everything revolves around money so there is a strong appearance that we cannot live without money, but that just isn't true. We do not need money to live. That should at least be our starting point. It's good to hear at least one other person recognize this.

I bet there will be manna raining and even food multiplication going on in the near future here on earth. When God's children who do not take the mark of the beast can not go to the store...God will feed them. He will not forsake us!

That is a possibility I have considered. I think there will be protection though I suspect it probably won't be something like mana from Heaven (but I'm open to God doing it however he wants). Whatever the case may be, we need to be training now to listen to God's voice and learning how to live on less.

All these people saying they work for money because they need to pay the bills and feed their family etc will almost certainly end up taking the Mark. I understand their fear; growing up in a system which teaches us that money makes the world go round can make it very difficult to let go. When the Mark comes around, they will say all the same things they're saying right now to justify taking it. Even if they suspect that it might be the Mark, they will still be faced with the same issues; how to pay the bills and feed your family?
 
Hi Edward. Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I get that we humans have set up a society where everything revolves around money so there is a strong appearance that we cannot live without money, but that just isn't true. We do not need money to live. That should at least be our starting point. It's good to hear at least one other person recognize this.



That is a possibility I have considered. I think there will be protection though I suspect it probably won't be something like mana from Heaven (but I'm open to God doing it however he wants). Whatever the case may be, we need to be training now to listen to God's voice and learning how to live on less.

All these people saying they work for money because they need to pay the bills and feed their family etc will almost certainly end up taking the Mark. I understand their fear; growing up in a system which teaches us that money makes the world go round can make it very difficult to let go. When the Mark comes around, they will say all the same things they're saying right now to justify taking it. Even if they suspect that it might be the Mark, they will still be faced with the same issues; how to pay the bills and feed your family?
So, are you saying that you believe money is the mark of the beast?
 
"Wings are legs"
"Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others"

"Report all those who speak against me and are trying to destroy our eutopian society...so we can deal with them"

Excerpts from Animal Farm by George Orwell.
 
This is true if money is required for survival. It is possible, although remote in today's society, for someone to live without a need for money. I'm thinking of a couple examples.

  1. A homeless person that feeds and clothes himself/herself from the generosity or scraps left by others.
  2. A person that is taken in and cared for by others.
  3. A person following Jesus' command given to His disciples as recorded in Mark 6:8. This person would be similar to example 1 above.
interesting
 
Nah. I'm discussing the words a member posted here about himself. Even Stovebolts recognized that JohnDB gaffed a bit by boasting that he only works for money, and top dollar at that.

Yes. The implication is that, when talking about the ideal of God vs money, you can usually spot who has a problem with money by who most strongly objects to the topic. I realize JohnDB is an administrator here, which means he holds a place of trust and maturity. I do not object to those qualities in him. As stovebolts suggests, JohnDB has some fantastic qualities. I would not like to quench those qualities through criticism, and yet, what is the alternative? Should I keep quiet if JohnDB expresses displeasure with my interpretations? The administrator tag carries a lot of weight behind it. Thank God I am not one who is intimidated by it.

I understand unity is important, but if that unity comes at the cost of keeping silent about sensitive issues which may offend others, then you're not really promoting a healthy relationship.

if you want to live without money i think that is admirable - i think the people God tells to support you are equally admirable
 
So, are you saying that you believe money is the mark of the beast?

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13.

The problem with working for money is that money is based on an opposite principle to the Kingdom of Heaven. You guys are right that it is not money which is the problem. The record suggests that Jesus and his disciples, at times, used money.

The problem is the motivation behind how we get the money; participation in the worldly value which says we should only help people IF they pay us for it. That is not how the kingdom of Heaven operates. If people want to share with us, that is fine since sharing is the essence of the Kingdom of Heaven. Payment is the antithesis to sharing.

I understand the appeal of payment. It's visible. It means you can get what you want when you want it. It's in your control. Living by faith in God's provision takes most of the control out of your hands. If you're dependent on God then you're more obligated to listen to God. If he asks you to sleep on the street, or to forsake some luxury, or to live in accomodation less than what you'd prefer you have to go with what he wants. With money, you don't need to depend on God. I know you say you depend on God even with the money, but the fact is that the money means you can still get what you want even if you're not listening to God.

This is what will cause most people, even professing Christians, to take the Mark of the Beast. You need to pay the bills. You need to feed your family. God gave you your job. God wants to bless you with material luxury. You'll flatter and compliment one another about how amazingly generous you all are to soothe any qualms of conscience which may come up.

Do you remember the Left Behind series? They somewhat pioneered this mentality by creating a scenario where the Christians start taking the Mark because of how it personally benefits them. They call it bi-loyalty and suggest that nothing, not even their own choices or the Mark can separate themselves from the love of God.
 
The problem is the motivation behind how we get the money; participation in the worldly value which says we should only help people IF they pay us for it.
I don't recall anyone making this assertion.

I know you say you depend on God even with the money, but the fact is that the money means you can still get what you want even if you're not listening to God.
I disagree. I cannot get God's love with money. I cannot obtain eternal life with money.

This is what will cause most people, even professing Christians, to take the Mark of the Beast. You need to pay the bills. You need to feed your family.
I agree.
 
The problem is the motivation behind how we get the money; participation in the worldly value which says we should only help people IF they pay us for it.
Where did you get this idea? That would certainly not be any Christian's motivation for helping others. And many unsaved people will also help others without any thought of being compensated.

John, you will need to sit down and get a grip on reality. Whatever you are saying about "evil" money is simply within your own mind.
 
interesting that Jesus said that to them for a specific short time and then told them the opposite thing later - Luke 22:35-40 - so obviously Jesus is not telling anyone to live like a homeless person long term

It was weird for me. The Lord told me to move to Ohio, and I did. I was feeling a lot (still am kind of) like Abraham, not knowing anything about why or what is in store for me...If God tells you to move cross country, you kind of naturally expect something to happen, things to change and so forth...and nothing really did like I figured it would. So I pray about it, and what does the Lord tell me?! He told me to continue working and do it as if I knew for a fact that He would not be coming back in my earthly lifetime...

That blew my mind. What what? Say what, Lord? Huh? I did not see that coming!
 
I don't recall anyone making this assertion.

For clarity, here's the assertion in question: "The problem is the motivation behind how we get the money; participation in the worldly value which says we should only help people IF they pay us for it. "

Of course this is the assertion people are making. That's what working for money is; someone pays you and you do the work. If they do not pay you, you do not do the work.

This confusion is what happens when you try to work for God and money at the same time. This is precisely why Jesus said you can't do it. They work on opposite principles. It may be that you guys have become overly sensitive about the word money so you're missing the bigger picture.

I'll rephrase it. You cannot work for God and payment at the same time without cheating on one or the other. If you demand payment (which is what happens when you say you will not work unless there is payment) then you cannot say the motivation is love.

If you're doing it for love, then payment would not be an issue. This is why I suggested you imagine this situation in the context of your family. You don't charge them a fee for the nice things you do for them, because you love them. You help them because you want to help them, because you care for them.

But in the Kingdom of Heaven this priniple doesn't only apply to our family. The whole of the Kingdom operates on this principle. We apply it to everyone because in the Kingdom of Heaven we're all brothers and sisters.

From a worldly perspective this ideal sounds foolish. It sounds like a utopian, Peter Pan fantasy doomed to fail. But love never fails. Disillusioned, cynical, bitter, fearful, greedy people fail quite often. I've heard people say they'd like to live in the kind of work-for-love society that Jesus described, but that they can't because it would never work unless everyone does it. They believe the best about themselves, that they would like to do the right thing; it's everyone else who stops them from doing so. They use the failures of all the rest of the world to justify their own lack of integrity or effort to work for love.
 
I'll rephrase it. You cannot work for God and payment at the same time without cheating on one or the other. If you demand payment (which is what happens when you say you will not work unless there is payment) then you cannot say the motivation is love.
So hard working pastors around the country (and let me be clear, I'm talking about the real ones not the prosperity preaching type) who have devoted their lives to ministering, helping and preaching God's word, but who also get a very modest salary from their church . . in your mind those guys are cheating on God?
 
There is no question about our need to work. No one has said we should not work. If you weren't so busy not caring about what I say you'd probably have an easier time understanding my position. Why we work is all important; the motivation.

God or money.

Like I said in my example that you dismissed, a man working for a salary to support his wife and children is working for love. His motivation is to provide for his family which is an honorable thing to God. If this hypothetical man did not do this the Bible clearly states he'd be worse than an infidel.
Whether he provides for them through his salary or by moving his family to your mythical Christian commune where everyone shares with no ulterior motives, he's serving God through his actions.

That's where I think you are having trouble understanding what Jesus actually said. Serving God or mammon isn't about what motivates you, its about who you serve. Its a subtle distinction, but think of it this way - if you are making a god out of your sharing/no money exchanged lifestyle or putting your faith in that style of living then you are serving something other than God.

This is the danger of legalism. Yes, we're supposed to live differently than the rest of the world and live by Jesus' commands (or else, what are we?) but if you put your faith in your works and your obedience then you've lost sight of Christ.
 
So hard working pastors around the country (and let me be clear, I'm talking about the real ones not the prosperity preaching type) who have devoted their lives to ministering, helping and preaching God's word, but who also get a very modest salary from their church . . in your mind those guys are cheating on God?

This question can easily be answered based on what I've already said in my previous post. These hard working pastors you're talking about, would they refuse to do their work if they don't get money for it? If so, then yeah, they're cheating on God because their behavior would demonstrate that their motivation is material. The amount is not the problem. Motivation is the issue.

I think you're the one who recently made a point of declaring that you don't care what I say, right? That attitude is probably what's hindering you from seeing my position clearly.
 
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