Grace?

[Nathan]

I really do not like to start too many threads at one time without wrapping up the others. But I had this thought cross my mind this afternoon and found it a quite interesting topic of discussion.

Was there "grace" in the OT, or is it just a "new" covenant thing?

The reason I ask is because we always claim "grace not law" as if grace replaced the law. Anyone else ever had this thought?

 

[Free]

I really do not like to start too many threads at one time without wrapping up the others. But I had this thought cross my mind this afternoon and found it a quite interesting topic of discussion.

Was there "grace" in the OT, or is it just a "new" covenant thing?

The reason I ask is because we always claim "grace not law" as if grace replaced the law. Anyone else ever had this thought?

Lot, Noah, a covenant people through whom would come the salvation and restoration of all things, etc.

 

[Hitch]

Grace originates from before the foundation of the world.

I know thew Reformers all had that thought and they were by no means the first

 

[reba]

The "law" was not yet when Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord!

 

[Elijah674]

The "law" was not yet when Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord!

No Law?? Why were they executed by the flood then? (or satan tossed from heaven) And Sin?? There was NO SIN WITHOUT 1 Johns 3:4's Godly Defining of such as LAW BREAKING!

--Elijah

 

[reba]

Law in the quotation makes implying The laws given to Moses.

 

[Nathan]

Ok then, let's narrow the question down a little more. Still basing it off the original statement, was there grace after the law given at Sinai and before Christ came in flesh?

 

[Joe67]

Ok then, let's narrow the question down a little more. Still basing it off the original statement, was there grace after the law given at Sinai and before Christ came in flesh?

Nathan,

Ex 33:11-18
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. KJV

This communication was after the commandments had been spoken.

Joe

 

[Elijah674]

Nathan,

Ex 33:11-18
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. KJV

This communication was after the commandments had been spoken.

Joe

Are you kidding yourself with that post??? Noah found NO Grace? Adam + Eve found NO Grace??? Come on GET REAL!Christ's Matt. 25 'MIDNIGHT' WAKE UP CRY!

And Cain?? What did the LORD SPEAK PERSON TO PERSON WITH him??? Gen. 4:7
NO GRACE OFFERED???????

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,

Ex 33:11-18
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. KJV

This communication was after the commandments had been spoken.

Joe

So Moses based the "separation" factor, the way others would know, that Israel was 'different' from the rest of the world on two things right?

Grace and presence?

Interesting...

So is this stating that grace and law can coexist, even inhabit the same place?

 

[Hitch]

Ok then, let's narrow the question down a little more. Still basing it off the original statement, was there grace after the law given at Sinai and before Christ came in flesh?

The giving of the Law was gracious in and of itself.

 

[Nathan]

Do you suppose that we all have different interpretations of "grace"? Maybe some Biblical definitions would help?

hebrew - chen
1) favour, grace, charm
a) favour, grace, elegance
b) favour, acceptance

Taken from the word - chanan
1) to be gracious, show favour, pity
a) (Qal) to show favour, be gracious
b) (Niphal) to be pitied
c) (Piel) to make gracious, make favourable, be gracious
d) (Poel) to direct favour to, have mercy on
e) (Hophal) to be shown favour, be shown consideration
f) (Hithpael) to seek favour, implore favour
2) to be loathsome

Which is comparable to the word - chanah

1) to decline, incline, encamp, bend down, lay siege against
a) (Qal)
1) to decline
2) to encamp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

greek - charis

1) grace
a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
1) a gift of grace
2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

From the word - chairō
1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute


Interesting...thoughts?

 

[Forgiven83]

God
Riches
At
Christ
Expense
II Corinthians 8:9
For we know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His proverty might be rich.

The Apostle John stated that grace came through Jesus.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Paul made a very similiar remark
Romans 5:15, 19-20
15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if throught the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

So IMO Grace was given by Jesus Christ that is His New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34: Hebrews 10:14-18), by His Blood (Acts 20:28; I Peter 1:18-19). The law condemns us.

 

[Nathan]

God
Riches
At
Christ
Expense
II Corinthians 8:9
For we know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His proverty might be rich.

The Apostle John stated that grace came through Jesus.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Paul made a very similiar remark
Romans 5:15, 19-20
15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if throught the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

So IMO Grace was given by Jesus Christ that is His New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34: Hebrews 10:14-18), by His Blood (Acts 20:28; I Peter 1:18-19). The law condemns us.

So do you believe that grace did not exist in the "old" testament?

 

[Elijah674]

Law in the quotation makes implying The laws given to Moses.

I see a whole bunch of laws included that Abe was keeping, and this is why God said that He called him! Gen. 26:2-5 Verse5 And surely the Gentile ones of Gen. 12:5 were saved by Grace! And this was well ahead of Moses Law/Book, huh!

--Elijah

 

[reba]

Yes 674 again that is why i put the word law in quotes.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Way i see it Grace was there also in the form of the Tree of Life

 

[Nathan]

So is it not right to say that grace has been given to mankind since the beginning ALL the way through till now?

And so would it not be right to say that grace has been the 'way' humans have been saved since the beginning ALL the way through till now?

 

[handy]

I would agree that we have had both grace and law from the garden...the trees representing both...and that the entire OT is one long example of the failure of man to keep God's law and God's grace in the face of man's failure.

The Hebrew word "chen" means to show favor, have pity and direct mercy to. This is what "grace" means in the Bible.

So, is it "God's Riches At Christ's Expense?"

Absolutely!!! Because no one, not one human being from Adam to little Ian Hegerich who is still in Caroline's tum, receives grace outside of Christ's work on the cross. It was not "finished" for those folks in the OT, but those whom had faith were rewarded when Christ did finish the work on the cross, just as we are now that it is done.

Not to hijack your thread Nathan, but I wonder, how has the law changed now that Christ has fulfilled it?

Certainly the covenant with Moses has been done away with. A covenant is only binding while both parties live, and Christ died, doing away with the covenant with Moses. However, Christ ushered in a new covenant, an everlasting covenant, as it says in Hebrews 8:

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not bound to the old covenant, a covenant with laws written in stone. We have the Holy Spirit who writes His laws upon our hearts.

So yes, grace and law have been with us from the beginning and will remain with us forever, but the nature of law changed when Christ fulfilled the old, and the nature of grace changed when God sent His Spirit to be upon all of us who believe.

 

[Hitch]

Yes 674 again that is why i put the word law in quotes.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Way i see it Grace was there also in the form of the Tree of Life

You know ol Cy says grace cannot even be found in the Gospels.

 

[handy]

So is it not right to say that grace has been given to mankind since the beginning ALL the way through till now?

And so would it not be right to say that grace has been the 'way' humans have been saved since the beginning ALL the way through till now?

Ahh, you slipped this in whist I was composing my last post, and answered the door, talked with a neighbor, etc.

It is entirely right to say that grace has been given to mankind since the beginning all the way through now.
Grace has been the only "way" any human has ever been saved.