Has this already happened?

[Rev33]

Has this already happened? My question is mainly for Historicists and Preterists but Futurists are welcome to join in, provided they don’t try to predict modern candidates. (My topic is about possible previous candidates.)

As we can see, the Lord’s coming happens after a widespread “rebellion†then a man promotes himself for blasphemous “worship.†Has this specific prophecy been fulfilled? If you think so, could you please:

1. provide the historical events, (or)
2. explain how it fits into the Preterist (and Historicist) scenarios.

[FONT=&quot]Paul's passage in 2 Thess 2 shows that the event was already underway. The son of perdition was already alive. He was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the Temple. This shows without question that it was a first century event. It is important to note that this was fullfilled entirely within a decade of Paul's writing to the Thessalonians.

The jewish Zealot-leader Manahem and his followers murdered the High Priest, robbed the Roman garrison, and siezed the Temple to start the armed Revolt in AD 66 from the Temple headquarters in Jerusalem. The victory over the Temple priests and rulers appeared to many to be God's blessing and purpose for the Revolt against Rome. The Zealots had been trying to gain control of the whole Nation and the Temple from about the time of Christ's birth. Menahem was a third generation terrorist rebel and was the son (or grandson) of Judas the Galilean rebel mentioned in the book of Acts.

Menahem is a CENTRAL figure to the Revolt and is considered one of the most powerful Jewish Messiahs of the 1st century for having successfully raided the Masada armory, securing an armed jewish force to fight the Revolt against Rome from the headquarters of the Holy Temple! Entirely apocalyptic.

The Nation had become a hotbed of Revolt-styled apocalypticism, and Josephus blames the Zealots as THE incendiary group among the Israelites that ignited the tinderbox and ruined the whole nation.

King Manahem of Israel literally fulfilled the sign of 2 Thess 2:4-7 and ordered the commands that locked the Nation into its final course of ruin and Revolt.

The Roman Armies came at that time to surround Jerusalem, and in response to all this and the Christians heeded the signs and fled Jerusalem according to Luke 21:20-22 and 2 Thess 2:4.

[/FONT]

 

[JLB]

[FONT=&quot]Paul's passage in 2 Thess 2 shows that the event was already underway. The son of perdition was already alive. He was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the Temple. This shows without question that it was a first century event. It is important to note that this was fullfilled entirely within a decade of Paul's writing to the Thessalonians.

The jewish Zealot-leader Manahem and his followers murdered the High Priest, robbed the Roman garrison, and siezed the Temple to start the armed Revolt in AD 66 from the Temple headquarters in Jerusalem. The victory over the Temple priests and rulers appeared to many to be God's blessing and purpose for the Revolt against Rome. The Zealots had been trying to gain control of the whole Nation and the Temple from about the time of Christ's birth. Menahem was a third generation terrorist rebel and was the son (or grandson) of Judas the Galilean rebel mentioned in the book of Acts.

Menahem is a CENTRAL figure to the Revolt and is considered one of the most powerful Jewish Messiahs of the 1st century for having successfully raided the Masada armory, securing an armed jewish force to fight the Revolt against Rome from the headquarters of the Holy Temple! Entirely apocalyptic.

The Nation had become a hotbed of Revolt-styled apocalypticism, and Josephus blames the Zealots as THE incendiary group among the Israelites that ignited the tinderbox and ruined the whole nation.

King Manahem of Israel literally fulfilled the sign of 2 Thess 2:4-7 and ordered the commands that locked the Nation into its final course of ruin and Revolt.

The Roman Armies came at that time to surround Jerusalem, and in response to all this and the Christians heeded the signs and fled Jerusalem according to Luke 21:20-22 and 2 Thess 2:4.

[/FONT]

Was the The jewish Zealot-leader Manahem destroyed by Jesus Christ?


JLB

 

[Lehigh3]

[FONT=&quot]Paul's passage in 2 Thess 2 shows that the event was already underway. The son of perdition was already alive. He was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the Temple. This shows without question that it was a first century event. It is important to note that this was fullfilled entirely within a decade of Paul's writing to the Thessalonians.

The jewish Zealot-leader Manahem and his followers murdered the High Priest, robbed the Roman garrison, and siezed the Temple to start the armed Revolt in AD 66 from the Temple headquarters in Jerusalem. The victory over the Temple priests and rulers appeared to many to be God's blessing and purpose for the Revolt against Rome. The Zealots had been trying to gain control of the whole Nation and the Temple from about the time of Christ's birth. Menahem was a third generation terrorist rebel and was the son (or grandson) of Judas the Galilean rebel mentioned in the book of Acts.

Menahem is a CENTRAL figure to the Revolt and is considered one of the most powerful Jewish Messiahs of the 1st century for having successfully raided the Masada armory, securing an armed jewish force to fight the Revolt against Rome from the headquarters of the Holy Temple! Entirely apocalyptic.

The Nation had become a hotbed of Revolt-styled apocalypticism, and Josephus blames the Zealots as THE incendiary group among the Israelites that ignited the tinderbox and ruined the whole nation.

King Manahem of Israel literally fulfilled the sign of 2 Thess 2:4-7 and ordered the commands that locked the Nation into its final course of ruin and Revolt.

The Roman Armies came at that time to surround Jerusalem, and in response to all this and the Christians heeded the signs and fled Jerusalem according to Luke 21:20-22 and 2 Thess 2:4.

[/FONT]

Yes, he was. Jesus came in judgment upon 2/3 of Israel. For judgment He came into that world (the this age)

 

[JLB]

Yes, he was. Jesus came in judgment upon 2/3 of Israel. For judgment He came into that world (the this age)

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The brightness of the coming of The Lord Jesus is an event that will been seen by all the people of the world, as the Lord taught us -

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

and again -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

... every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him, is a direct reference to Zechariah 12 -


8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

... then they will look on Me whom they pierced.

Every eye will see Him when He returns and they will recognize Him as The Messiah. All the tribes of Israel will see Him and be aware that Jesus Christ is Lord and Christ in that Day when He returns.

[FONT="]Menahem is a CENTRAL figure to the Revolt and is considered one of the most powerful Jewish Messiahs of the 1st century for having successfully raided the Masada armory, securing an armed Jewish force to fight the Revolt against Rome from the headquarters of the Holy Temple! Entirely apocalyptic. [/FONT]

Did the person who happened to write about the above quote concerning "Menahem" mention anything about The Lord Jesus Christ being revealed to all the nation of Israel and every eye seeing Him, as well as the fact that the brightness of His coming destroyed this lawless one.

Where are the writings about this event?

Also was there any writings about the Lord Himself In that day defending the inhabitants of Jerusalem;

or

Any writings about the Lord destroying the Roman armies that came against Jerusalem?

It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


Please show some proof of these events being recorded, as I believe they are far more important.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

Please show some proof of these events being recorded, as I believe they are far more important.
JLB[/SIZE][/FONT]

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai] Jehovah came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them (Deut 33:2; cf. Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
​

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

The Onus is on you sir, to show where scripture teaches you to interpret phrases such as "Seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT, in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to "every Eye shall see" in the NT.

 

[JLB]

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai] Jehovah came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them (Deut 33:2; cf. Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
​

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

The Onus is on you sir, to show where scripture teaches you to interpret phrases such as "Seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT, in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to "every Eye shall see" in the NT.

Listing some OT prophecies and putting your commentary of the dates that you "think" are associated with those scriptures means nothing.

I don't know what point you are trying to make other than insinuating that the Lord's return is somehow invisible?

Here is what Jesus says about His return -

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Surely you are not under the impression that The Lord Jesus would teach us something as plan and clear and simple as -

... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.

and it somehow doesn't mean what it says.

I find it amusing that by just simply reading what Jesus taught us about His return could completely negate your whole big long drawn out OT commentary with just one sentence.

They will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...


Sorry, I believe what Jesus said.


JLB

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Re: 'see the son of man coming with cliuds" What greek word is used for see, and what are synonyms?

Re: sitting in the temple" The romans put a bust of caesar in the temple. One if the instigatiins of the revolt was when the preists refused to make a sacrufucial offering to it. (See wikupedia) I believe nero and gaius cassius had entered the temple to investigate that the bust and sacrifice were still being performed.
_
Re: man of sin. I view this as possibly the departure of those who had fellowshipped with the believers falling back to participation with Israel. Its also oppoaite the man justified and luving free in faith vs the "sinner" who would be revealed as the justufied bwlievers and lambs left.

 

[JLB]

Re: 'see the son of man coming with cliuds" What greek word is used for see, and what are synonyms?

Re: sitting in the temple" The romans put a bust of caesar in the temple. One if the instigatiins of the revolt was when the preists refused to make a sacrufucial offering to it. (See wikupedia) I believe nero and gaius cassius had entered the temple to investigate that the bust and sacrifice were still being performed.
_
Re: man of sin. I view this as possibly the departure of those who had fellowshipped with the believers falling back to participation with Israel. Its also oppoaite the man justified and luving free in faith vs the "sinner" who would be revealed as the justufied bwlievers and lambs left.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, is a reference to the resurrection of the dead, which occurs at the return of the Lord Jesus.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:... 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

When Jesus returns there won't be any wicked left, for they will have been cast into the fire by His angels.

Look around, we are just not there yet.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Wicked and cursed are not synonymous. If your interpretation were true, then how could there be a rebellion after the millenium? Further, consider all those verses you conveniently left out of Matt 25... Are we really to believe Christ will return only to be naked and imprisoned?

 

[Rev33]

Again JLB, you need to show where scripture teaches you to interpret "Seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT in Polar opposite fashion to "every eye shall see" in the NT. You have failed to do so thus far.

Lets just start with a simple one:
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

By your stated interpratation of this language, Isaiah is describing an event where every person of every nation of earth physically Saw, with their Eyes, the actual physical arm of Jehovah.

Please provide any extra biblical historical record of this worldwide physical event where Gods physical arm was seen by everyone on earth as the prophet Isaiah infallibly claims had happened.

Surely such a monumental, globally visible event was recorded in the annals of history somewhere besides the Bible, yes?

 

[JLB]

Again JLB, you need to show where scripture teaches you to interpret "Seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT in Polar opposite fashion to "every eye shall see" in the NT. You have failed to do so thus far.

Lets just start with a simple one:
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

By your stated interpratation of this language, Isaiah is describing an event where every person of every nation of earth physically Saw, with their Eyes, the actual physical arm of Jehovah.



Please provide any extra biblical historical record of this worldwide physical event where Gods physical arm was seen by everyone on earth as the prophet Isaiah infallibly claims had happened.

Surely such a monumental, globally visible event was recorded in the annals of history somewhere besides the Bible, yes?

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

JLB

 

[Rev33]

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

JLB

Scripture interprets itself (Thank God!) and one part of scripture can not be interpreted in such a way as to render it in direct conflict with that which is clearly taught elsewhere.

Your treatment of "every eye shall see" in the NT is in direct conflict with the MYRIAD of CLEAR teaching surrounding the literal meaning of the same langauge when found in the OT, as I have demonstrated above and you have yet to offer a reasoned thoughtful rebuttal of.

Why don't you take any one or more of the Clear, literal, visible connotations of God being "SEEN" in the OT that I provided above, and show us, using the scripture itself, why they do not mean what I contend they mean and did not come to pass when I contend they came to pass??

The smart money is on you being unable to accomplish the task.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself. Moderator

 

[JLB]

Scripture interprets itself (Thank God!) and one part of scripture can not be interpreted in such a way as to render it in direct conflict with that which is clearly taught elsewhere.

Your treatment of "every eye shall see" in the NT is in direct conflict with the MYRIAD of CLEAR teaching surrounding the literal meaning of the same langauge when found in the OT, as I have demonstrated above and you have yet to offer a reasoned thoughtful rebuttal of.

Why don't you take any one or more of the Clear, literal, visible connotations of God being "SEEN" in the OT that I provided above, and show us, using the scripture itself, why they do not mean what I contend they mean and did not come to pass when I contend they came to pass??

The smart money is on you being unable to accomplish the task.

Since I have already given you the crystal clear scripture in Zechariah 12 about the unique event of the return of Jesus Christ and you still can not seem to grasp the idea of Every Eye seeing Him return, then I will break it down for you.


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

"They" in this verse includes the nation of Israel as well as those who are there from other nations, as we see from previous verse's -

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. Zechariah 12:1-4

By the phrase's used we see that not only The nation of Israel will witness His return but all the surrounding peoples, as well as, all nations of the earth,will be on hand to witness the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, as it is written in the book of Revelation -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

and again


26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27


Why would anyone want to try and disprove that everyone will witness the return of the Lord Jesus when He returns in power and great glory?

JLB

 

[Lehigh3]

Since I have already given you the crystal clear scripture in Zechariah 12 about the unique event of the return of Jesus Christ and you still can not seem to grasp the idea of Every Eye seeing Him return, then I will break it down for you.


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

"They" in this verse includes the nation of Israel as well as those who are there from other nations, as we see from previous verse's -

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. Zechariah 12:1-4

By the phrase's used we see that not only The nation of Israel will witness His return but all the surrounding peoples, as well as, all nations of the earth,will be on hand to witness the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, as it is written in the book of Revelation -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

and again


26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27


Why would anyone want to try and disprove that everyone will witness the return of the Lord Jesus when He returns in power and great glory?

JLB

Jesus returned in power and great glory, judging 2/3 of Israel. The Pharisees refused to believe Christ's deity But the Remnant was saved they repented at the preaching of Peter in Acts2. Same as Zech12:10. Remnant of Israel + believing Gentiles = All Israel.

The Sign of His Coming:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat07.html

 

[JLB]

Jesus returned in power and great glory, judging 2/3 of Israel. The Pharisees refused to believe Christ's deity But the Remnant was saved they repented at the preaching of Peter in Acts2. Same as Zech12:10. Remnant of Israel + believing Gentiles = All Israel.

The Sign of His Coming:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat07.html

Show scripture for your theory.

Jesus taught us clearly what will happen when He returns -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34,41

and again -


41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43

The Lawless of all the nations of the world will be gathered up by the angels and cast into everlasting fire.

It may come as a shock to you , but this has not happened yet.

Look around.


Do you think the Romans as well as Titus were cast into the furnace of fire?


Do you believe the resurrection is past?


JLB

 

[Lehigh3]

Show scripture for your theory.

Jesus taught us clearly what will happen when He returns -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34,41

and again -


41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43

The Lawless of all the nations of the world will be gathered up by the angels and cast into everlasting fire.

It may come as a shock to you , but this has not happened yet.

Look around.


Do you think the Romans as well as Titus were cast into the furnace of fire?


Do you believe the resurrection is past?


JLB

Zech.13.
The Shepherd Savior

7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,â€
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,â€
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’â€




The 1/3 was God's Remnant. God always had a remnant of Israel for His holy name.


Paul said: Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.




UNDERSTAND that Matt25 is speaking about Israel's judgment- "sheep and goats"
Here's why:
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/matthew/sheep_goats.htm

 

[JLB]

Zech.13.
The Shepherd Savior

7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,â€
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,â€
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’â€




The 1/3 was God's Remnant. God always had a remnant of Israel for His holy name.


Paul said: Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.




UNDERSTAND that Matt25 is speaking about Israel's judgment- "sheep and goats"
Here's why:
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/matthew/sheep_goats.htm

All the nations will be gathered before Him, is about as plain and clear as anyone could ask for. Why would someone make a statement such as -

Matt25 is speaking about Israel's judgment- "sheep and goats"

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


Again, those that proclaim the heretical teachings of Preterism are easily refuted by the clear and straightforward teachings of Jesus Christ.


Again, I would encourage you to turn away from those that teach that Jesus Christ has returned as well as the resurrection is past.


JLB

 

[Lehigh3]

All the nations will be gathered before Him, is about as plain and clear as anyone could ask for. Why would someone make a statement such as -


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


Again, those that proclaim the heretical teachings of Preterism are easily refuted by the clear and straightforward teachings of Jesus Christ.


Again, I would encourage you to turn away from those that teach that Jesus Christ has returned as well as the resurrection is past.


JLB

And I encourage you to study Preterism instead of judging other Christians.

You didn't even read the link bc I just finished reviewing it!

 

[JLB]

And I encourage you to study Preterism instead of judging other Christians.

You didn't even read the link bc I just finished reviewing it!

You seem to just ignore what Jesus taught.

you said -

UNDERSTAND that Matt25 is speaking about Israel's judgment- "sheep and goats"

In direct opposition to what you said, Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25 -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.


Preterism says Matthew 25 is speaking Israel's judgement. The reason they say this is to validate their doctrine that Jesus returned in 70 AD in judgment upon Israel.

Peter calls this type of ploy a "cunningly devised fable" which would be likened to Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. It is interesting to note that a fable is designed for children who don't know any better. They grow up believing this fable until someone comes along and tells them the truth. In many cases the child is reluctant to believe the truth in favor of the fable.

So when Jesus tells you - "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Even though He clearly tells you He will Judge all the nations and determine which ones will enter His kingdom and which will go into everlasting fire, you continue to proclaim the teachings of Preterism instead, insisting that I need to read their writings and believe what they write over what Jesus taught.

No thank you!

The teachings of Preterism have been condemned as Heresy by this Forum.

Furthermore they have been likened to cancer by Paul.

16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:16-18

I would encourage you to turn away from those that teach the resurrection is past, before it spreads to you.


JLB