Heaven?

[Butch5]

Why do Christians teach they go to heaven when they die?

 

[Mitspa]

Why do Christians teach they go to heaven when they die?

I think i read it somewhere?

 

[Butch5]

I think i read it somewhere?

Would you be kind enough to point out where?

 

[Tri Unity]

Good question. I believe many pagan and gnostic teachings were blended into the church after the year 250 AD. The Apostlic church remained intact way past that time; but it began to gradually become more and more coloured with paganism over the next couple of hundred years. At the year 250 pagans and gnostics were allowed in the churches without baptism. By the year 310 celibacy was enforced for priests. By the year 325 pagan words were accepted as doctrines. By the year 360 it was common to buy a position of bishop. By the year 383 AD the church of Rome developed supremacy over other churches. By the year 430 statues were being made for churches. By the year 450 Mary was worshipped and prayed to.

The church in 450 had changed dramatically from the church of 250. There was no single event; but a series of events that continued to infuse the church with paganism. Luther did not fix the entire problem. Since Luther a host of religions have popped up that claim to fix the church; but none of them do. They all are blind to the teachings of the church in the first 200 years before paganism was infused into later church teachings.

It is my belief that we need to honestly and diligently examine the earliest doctrines and practices of the church in the first 200 years to discover what was taught by the Apostles. This is surprisingly easy to do; but once a person has developed a false doctrine it is near impossible to let go of that false doctrine. This is why "heaven" is still taught, along with Santa and the Easter bunny. People will not let go of their paganism.

 

[Mitspa]

Would you be kind enough to point out where?

Col 1:4

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Col 1:5

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

There is probably hundreds of scriptures that confirm our place in heaven with Christ! Do you have a point you are trying to make?

 

[Butch5]

Col 1:4

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Col 1:5

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

There is probably hundreds of scriptures that confirm our place in heaven with Christ! Do you have a point you are trying to make?

This passage speaks of the "hope" laid up in heaven, it says nothing of Christians going to heaven when they die. Do you know what the "hope" is that is being spoken of here?

The point is that there is no Scriptrue that teaches Christians go to heaven when they die. The Scriptures teach that man will dwell on earth.

 

[Mitspa]

Heb 10:34


For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
1Pe 1:4


To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

 

[Butch5]

Good question. I believe many pagan and gnostic teachings were blended into the church after the year 250 AD. The Apostlic church remained intact way past that time; but it began to gradually become more and more coloured with paganism over the next couple of hundred years. At the year 250 pagans and gnostics were allowed in the churches without baptism. By the year 310 celibacy was enforced for priests. By the year 325 pagan words were accepted as doctrines. By the year 360 it was common to buy a position of bishop. By the year 383 AD the church of Rome developed supremacy over other churches. By the year 430 statues were being made for churches. By the year 450 Mary was worshipped and prayed to.

The church in 450 had changed dramatically from the church of 250. There was no single event; but a series of events that continued to infuse the church with paganism. Luther did not fix the entire problem. Since Luther a host of religions have popped up that claim to fix the church; but none of them do. They all are blind to the teachings of the church in the first 200 years before paganism was infused into later church teachings.

It is my belief that we need to honestly and diligently examine the earliest doctrines and practices of the church in the first 200 years to discover what was taught by the Apostles. This is surprisingly easy to do; but once a person has developed a false doctrine it is near impossible to let go of that false doctrine. This is why "heaven" is still taught, along with Santa and the Easter bunny. People will not let go of their paganism.

Agree! There has been much error that has entered into the church. We as Christians should be searching out the true doctrines instead of debating between incorrect doctrines.

 

[Mitspa]

Eph 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:20

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Eph 2:5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[Butch5]

Heb 10:34


For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
1Pe 1:4


To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This doesn't teach that Christians go to heaven when they die. It says there is an inheritance reserved in heaven. You said you read somewhere that Christians go to heaven when they die, these are simply inferences that you've drawn from the passages, they don't state that Christians go to heaven.

 

[Mitspa]

Col 3:1


If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

have you ever read the book?

 

[Butch5]

Eph 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:20

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Eph 2:5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Mitspa,

Please show me where Scripture teaches that Christians go to heaven when they die. You are simply inferring that from the passages you've posted.

 

[Butch5]

Col 3:1


If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

have you ever read the book?

Yes, I've read the book, can you show me where the Scripture is that you said you've read?

 

[Mitspa]

Heb 11:16



But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Joh 14:2



In my Father's house are many mansions: ifit werenotso,I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3



And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am,thereye may be also. :biglol

 

[Tri Unity]

I have explained my view to Butch before. I believe that the heavenly destiny is only for the 144,000 who are spiritually spoken of as Israel. These are Abraham's seed by faith, not by circumcission, and they are virgins spiritually, not phisically. Although these have a heavenly destiny, they are to "reign on the earth". (Rev 5:10) Their "destiny" is with Christ in heaven, but they physically reign on the earth. Heaven is therefore used as an expression of power and glory, not a XY location. The scriptures used by Mitspa speak of this reality.

The confusion has always existed in not seeing the bigger picture. For instance, who are the kings and priests to rule over on earth if all christians go to heaven?

"You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Rev 5:10)

If your not a christian, then the traditional view is that you go to hell. Who are these on earth that are being ruled over? Why do they rule on earth and not in heaven?

 

[Butch5]

Heb 11:16



But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Joh 14:2



In my Father's house are many mansions: ifit werenotso,I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3



And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am,thereye may be also. :biglol

Mitspa,

I'm not interested in addressing a bunch of proof texts that you believe teach heaven. I asked where do the Scriptures teach that a Christian goes to heaven when thye die. Teaching is not a single verse taken out context. When Paul taught that a man is justified by faith, he didn't right just one sentence, he wrote chapters explaining the dotrine. A teaching is more than one sentence.

Let's consider these passages you've posted. In the Hebrews passage "ehavenly" is an adjective. Adjective is a word that describes a noun. A noun is a person, place, or thing. In the passage you posted the noun is city, heavenly, describes that city. The apostle John also speaks of that heavenly city.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.(Rev 21:2-3 KJV)

Notice the apostle says he say the holy city coming "Down" out of heaven from God. He said the tabernacle of God is with men and God will dwell with them. The holy city comes down to earth and God will dwell with them.

Regarding the passage from John 14, "my Father's house" is the temple.

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.​

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (Joh 2:12-17 KJV)

 

[Mitspa]

2Pe 3:3

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6


Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,

 

[Butch5]

2Pe 3:3

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6


Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,

Mitspa,

If you're not going to address the issue other than proof texting there's no point in addressing these texts.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

I'm not interested in addressing a bunch of proof texts that you believe teach heaven. I asked where do the Scriptures teach that a Christian goes to heaven when thye die. Teaching is not a single verse taken out context. When Paul taught that a man is justified by faith, he didn't right just one sentence, he wrote chapters explaining the dotrine. A teaching is more than one sentence.

Let's consider these passages you've posted. In the Hebrews passage "ehavenly" is an adjective. Adjective is a word that describes a noun. A noun is a person, place, or thing. In the passage you posted the noun is city, heavenly, describes that city. The apostle John also speaks of that heavenly city.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.(Rev 21:2-3 KJV)​

Notice the apostle says he say the holy city coming "Down" out of heaven from God. He said the tabernacle of God is with men and God will dwell with them. The holy city comes down to earth and God will dwell with them.​

Regarding the passage from John 14, "my Father's house" is the temple.​

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.​

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (Joh 2:12-17 KJV)

What you call "proof text" believers call the Living Word of God

now a child could understand that Christ is seated in Heaven, that we who "believe" will be with Him, where he is.

Luk 18:17

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

 

[Butch5]

What you call "proof text" believers call the Living Word of God

now a child could understand that Christ is seated in Heaven, that we who "believe" will be with Him, where he is.

Luk 18:17

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Do you understand what a proof text is? It's a text while true in it's context, is taken out of that context and used to attempt to prove a point. "NOT ONE" of the texts you've presented says that a Christian goes to heaven when he dies. Instead, you've accpeted that idea and have taken texts that speak of heaven and tried to use them to prove your point. That is proof texting. Now, I asked why Christians say they go to heaven when they die and you said you read it somewhere. I asked you to point that out, as of yet, you have not pointed out "ANY" text that says a Christian goes to heaven when he dies. I can only assume that either you didn't read it but rather inferred it, or you read it in a work other than the Scriptures.