Bible Study Heidi - a question about the Jews and the Ten Commandments

[itoldyounoalready]

Re: Heidi - a question about the Jews and the Ten Commandmen

Someone may have brought up this query before, perhaps many times, but it just occurred to me recently.

Heidi, you keep making reference to the fact that those who continue to follow the OT Laws ‘like the Jews’ (specifically in regard to the Sabbath) are lost …is that correct? Now, if we’re to suppose that the Ten Commandments WERE given specifically to the Jews, i.e. NOT to the Gentiles, then why are the Jews now lost for being obedient to the Sabbath command?

You see, God commanded obedience to the commandments by the Jews and ALL of their generations to follow. That appears to mean – and by all means correct me if I’m wrong - from then on until forever …right? Based on this instruction from God, what would be the point of continued obedience by the Jews to God’s commands FOREVER as long as they’re lost anyway? And, even if the Jewish Nation WERE to accept Jesus as their Savior tomorrow, wouldn’t the instruction from God concerning ALL of their generations (of Jews) still be in effect? Wouldn’t Christian Jews still be keeping the Sabbath commandment (as well as the others) anyway?

Maybe I’m not seeing something here that may be glaringly obvious. I hope that I’ve managed to articulate my question/s in a manner that is understood. If you, Heidi, or anyone else, can respond to this query we can take it from there.

First off,.... there is no such thing as a "Christian Jew."

Secondly,..... the Jews had the ordinances and sacrifices that covered their relationship to God and His commandments.

These ordinances and sacrifices have today been superseeded by Christ Himself, He who is the reality of these commandments, ordinances, and sacrifices.

See Sputnikboy, God is not after the superficial, He is after the Reality.

He is not after "a people", but desires "many sons."


Unless one sees what God desires, and by this I mean God's original desire upon which all others sit, then one will forever be drifting; either in an apostate institution or individually from one apostate institution to another.


God says in His word that His people lose restraint for lack of vision.

It is our vision that keeps us, and if we do not have the one vision of God then we will be unrestrained in our living and being.


In love,
cj

Actaully cj I beg to differ there are messianic jews who believe in the coming of Jesus Christ and that he was the messiah and died and rose from the grave, they have christian principles but they are still of jewish descent and culture,They're not just going to completely denounce their culture just because that disagree with other forms of the jewish faith.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Ephesians 2:4-22. . .(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances . . .

And what WERE the law of commandments found in the ordinances, Solo ...the Big Ten?

Believers are no longer under the bondage to sin under the Law while in the flesh. A new creature is born when the new birth of God takes place. We are no longer under bondage to the flesh, and that which is born of God does not sin. Simple.

It's SO simple, in fact, that 'not sinning' WILL also result in actual physical 'deeds' so that we can be a witness to others by our actions. It's so simple, in fact, that we WILL automatically keep the commandments. And it's the WILL part which indicates that the commandments are indeed written on our hearts. Actions speak louder than words when it comes to conveying the Good News of Jesus Christ. Words are a dime a dozen and meaningless without actions.

So ...
we WILL not have any other gods
we WILL not make any graven images
we WILL not take the name of God in vain
we WILL honor the Sabbath

The above four are what sets the Christian apart from the nonChristian. They encompass the first greatest commandment ...to love God with all one's mind, soul, and strength. To continue ...

we WILL honor our father and mother
we WILL not kill
we WILL not commit adultery
we WILL not steal
we WILL not bear false witness
we WILL not covet

The above six are those that encompass the second greatest commandment ...to love one's neighbor as one's self.

I doubt that you will have any issue with the above, Solo, except, of course, for the 4th. And, sadly, it's the 4th that makes this entire discussion an issue to begin with. THAT'S the hard (inconvenient) one to keep, NOT the other nine!

 

[Solo]

Ephesians 2:4-22. . .(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances . . .

And what WERE the law of commandments found in the ordinances, Solo ...the Big Ten?

Believers are no longer under the bondage to sin under the Law while in the flesh. A new creature is born when the new birth of God takes place. We are no longer under bondage to the flesh, and that which is born of God does not sin. Simple.

It's SO simple, in fact, that 'not sinning' WILL also result in actual physical 'deeds' so that we can be a witness to others by our actions. It's so simple, in fact, that we WILL automatically keep the commandments. And it's the WILL part which indicates that the commandments are indeed written on our hearts. Actions speak louder than words when it comes to conveying the Good News of Jesus Christ. Words are a dime a dozen and meaningless without actions.

So ...
we WILL not have any other gods
we WILL not make any graven images
we WILL not take the name of God in vain
we WILL honor the Sabbath

The above four are what sets the Christian apart from the nonChristian. They encompass the first greatest commandment ...to love God with all one's mind, soul, and strength. To continue ...

we WILL honor our father and mother
we WILL not kill
we WILL not commit adultery
we WILL not steal
we WILL not bear false witness
we WILL not covet

The above six are those that encompass the second greatest commandment ...to love one's neighbor as one's self.

I doubt that you will have any issue with the above, Solo, except, of course, for the 4th. And, sadly, it's the 4th that makes this entire discussion an issue to begin with. THAT'S the hard (inconvenient) one to keep, NOT the other nine!

The real issue is not the 4th commandment (it is the only commandment that is not mentioned in the New Testament). The issue is have you broken any of the ten commandments since you were born of God. If you have sinned then you have broken one of the commandments of the Law. Have you ever looked on a woman with lust in your eyes? If so, you committed adultery. Have you ever been angry with a brother? If so, then you have committed murder. Have you ever taken anything at all without paying for it. A dollar from the floor or ground that wasn't yours? If so, then you committed stealing. etc. etc. etc. etc.

When you sin, is it the corrupt, mortal flesh that sins, or the new creature born of God that sins? Is sinning the same as breaking a commandment? What is sinning if it is not breaking a commandment? Do you practice the Jewish customs when you keep the fourth commandment, or do you make up your own or listen to someone else as to how to keep the sabbath?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Ephesians 2:4-22. . .(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances . . .

And what WERE the law of commandments found in the ordinances, Solo ...the Big Ten?

Believers are no longer under the bondage to sin under the Law while in the flesh. A new creature is born when the new birth of God takes place. We are no longer under bondage to the flesh, and that which is born of God does not sin. Simple.

It's SO simple, in fact, that 'not sinning' WILL also result in actual physical 'deeds' so that we can be a witness to others by our actions. It's so simple, in fact, that we WILL automatically keep the commandments. And it's the WILL part which indicates that the commandments are indeed written on our hearts. Actions speak louder than words when it comes to conveying the Good News of Jesus Christ. Words are a dime a dozen and meaningless without actions.

So ...
we WILL not have any other gods
we WILL not make any graven images
we WILL not take the name of God in vain
we WILL honor the Sabbath

The above four are what sets the Christian apart from the nonChristian. They encompass the first greatest commandment ...to love God with all one's mind, soul, and strength. To continue ...

we WILL honor our father and mother
we WILL not kill
we WILL not commit adultery
we WILL not steal
we WILL not bear false witness
we WILL not covet

The above six are those that encompass the second greatest commandment ...to love one's neighbor as one's self.

I doubt that you will have any issue with the above, Solo, except, of course, for the 4th. And, sadly, it's the 4th that makes this entire discussion an issue to begin with. THAT'S the hard (inconvenient) one to keep, NOT the other nine!

The real issue is not the 4th commandment (it is the only commandment that is not mentioned in the New Testament).

But it IS mentioned in the New Testament ...between Matthew 12:1 and Colossians 2:16 it's mentioned 60 times!

The issue is have you broken any of the ten commandments since you were born of God.

NEVER. uppydogeyes:

If you have sinned then you have broken one of the commandments of the Law. Have you ever looked on a woman with lust in your eyes? If so, you committed adultery. Have you ever been angry with a brother? If so, then you have committed murder. Have you ever taken anything at all without paying for it. A dollar from the floor or ground that wasn't yours? If so, then you committed stealing. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Yes, to most of the above. But I'm taking the fifth about the one pertaining to lusting on a woman ... ;-)

When you sin, is it the corrupt, mortal flesh that sins, or the new creature born of God that sins? Is sinning the same as breaking a commandment?

Sin is the transgression of the Law.

What is sinning if it is not breaking a commandment?

Again, sin is transgression of the Law.

Do you practice the Jewish customs when you keep the fourth commandment, or do you make up your own or listen to someone else as to how to keep the sabbath?

The Jewish custom is so rigid that it can't possibly be 'a delight' (Isaiah 58:13-14). As mentioned many times previously, the Sabbath is not kept through rules and regulations. It's a 'heart' thing. It's entirely up to the individual as to how he or she keeps the Sabbath. The main thing is to recognize that particular 24-hour period as being 'Jesus-oriented' and revolving one's actions around that theme. It isn't an act of legalism as some of you seem to SO desperately want it to be. But, on the other hand, it would HAVE to be 'legalism' as long as we're keeping it correctly ...right? Not so, it's a delight. Do you know that we (shudder at the thought) laugh and sing a lot on the Sabbath? :smt043 :smt034 :smt035 :smt041

 

[Solo]

The fourth commandment is not mentioned in the New Testament. The word Sabbath is, but no where in the New Testament after Jesus ascended is there a command to keep the Sabbath.

I understand your position that sin is the transgression of the law, but the question remains unanswered.

When you sin, is it the corrupt, mortal flesh that sins, or the new creature that is born of God that sins?

I would say that your way of keeping the Sabbath apart from the ordinences that were given to the Jews is less than what God intended when giving Moses these ordinances. I suspect that the way that Jesus kept the Sabbath would cause many sabbath keepers today to doubt his Godliness and lump him in with the antiChrist Sunday worshippers.

Let me say that I do not believe that Sunday is the Sabbath. I believe that Saturday is the Sabbath. I also believe that the rest that we are to enter is the rest from our own works, and instead be about the works of the kingdom of God just as Jesus did. Jesus did this seven days a week, and I believe that is a believers function as well. All 7 days should be kept holy, and if you prefer to worship on Saturday, then go for it. I suspect that when you begin judging others in a negative light, that you are close to breaking the thou shalt not murder commandment as Jesus explained it.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm almost willing to apply a 'stalemate' here, Solo. It's basically just you and me and it's become a 'your move, my move, your move, etc' situation. We're both very obstinate and I don't think that anything more can be gained from this discussion. You've certainly given me a run for my money and I applaud you ...but don't get used to it! :