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Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

guibox

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The Bible is full of references to the ultimate destruction of the enemies of God. Many NT references which seem to support eternal torment use language from the OT that signifies total destruction. Whereas most people see eternal torment, the Bible uses them as complete annihilation. Let’s look at a few words and their scriptural passage that many use

Here are a few of the most common verses that many have derived the concept of eternal torment from:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever – Revelation 20:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night – Revelation 14:10.11
And if thy hand offend thee, cut if off. It is better for thee to enter into like maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched – Mark 9:43, 44
Then shall He say unto them on the left hand; Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels - Matthew 25:41
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life - Matthew 25:46
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world....So shall it be at the end of this world. The angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth - Matthew 13:40,49,50
Taking these verses alone without proper cross referencing, or ignoring the use of metaphorical language can give us the impression that eternal torment is valid. However, the Bible must be taken as a whole and all things looked at to come to a proper conclusion. When we hold these verses up to proper scrutiny, we see that it harmonizes with the rest of scripture that show that man has a mortal ‘soul’ and that it will be destroyed. The words 'eternal', 'everlasting', and 'forever' are used three ways in the Bible:

1) To apply to whom it is speaking about
2) In its results and continuity, not in its duration
3) As an unspecified length of time.

To ignore this is to put our own preconceived ideas into the text rather than understand the ancient context of which it is use is to come away with a skewed interpretation other than what is written. The mention of such phrases as "unquenchable fire", "eternal fire", "worm dieth not", "forever and ever", "smoke ascendeth up forever" are all used in the OT to signify absolute and utter destruction. The drawing of this language from the OT for use in the NT shows that it is to mean the same thing.

OT Language of Destruction
These verses from the OT are familiar with what we find in all the above verses.

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day, the smoke there shall go up forever from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever - Isaiah 34:9,10
The importance of this verse and what it is saying and therefore the proper context in explaining Revelation 14 cannot be missed, folks!

This was describing the destruction of Edom that occurred thousands of years ago. Its not burning today is it? Notice the language used is exactly like that in Revelation and other parts of the Bible to describe the finality of the wicked's punishment. The smoke ascending up is figurative of the totality of the destruction. It ascends up and is forever gone. The expressions "night or day" show the continuity of the punishment, not the duration. It burns continually until it is finished its work.

Eternal Fire
Look at the use of phrase “eternal fireâ€Â.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire - Jude 7
Notice that S&G are not burning now. The fire was eternal in its results, not in its duration. Even if the fire itself was eternal or everlasting, it is a stretch of logic and science to say that what is thrown in the fire is eternal as well. The wicked are mortal and do not have immortal souls, therefore they will burn for a time and then be gone. It has also been suggested that the lake of fire is symbolic of utter destruction and not a literal place. Why? Note that the beast, death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation and Daniel, the beast is a religio-political power. Death and hell are concepts. How does one throw these into a lake of fire?

Forever and ever
In the scriptures, ‘forever’ is dependent on what it is referring to. Look at this verse from 1 Samuel:

I will not go up until the child be weaned and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide forever...Therefore I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord - 1 Samuel 1:22,28
This was when Samuel was given to the high priest, Eli, to serve God. Forever is a relative term. We see this reference in the OT of servants serving their master "forever". Here it means as long as life lasts. When 'forever' speaks about God or the saved, it means eternal because they have eternal life. However, when speaking about the wicked, they are mortal because of sin. Therefore, forever is temporary because the wages of sin is death. They are not immortal, therefore cannot burn eternally.

Revelation 20:10 should read like this,
They are cast into the lake of fire where they shall be tormented continually until their life ends
Eternal and Everlasting
In Matthew 25:46 the word used for eternal and everlasting is ‘aionos’. Some will say that because the same word is used to describe the fates of the wicked and righteous, they must both stand together as literally eternity. This belief does not take into account three things:

1) ‘aionos’ can mean ‘age lasting’, or ‘an unspecified period of time’
2) It does not say ‘everlasting punishing’ but ‘everlasting punishment’
3) The wicked do not have immortal souls or eternal life

Notice that there is a contrast here as is used continually in the scriptures to show differences. Eternal life vs everlasting punishment. The more they are opposite the better. That punishment is death and it will last forever. There is no resurrection or redemption from it.

The wages of sin is death...BUT the gift of God is eternal life - Romans 6:23
Here we have an example of the Bible’s use of comparisons to show the complete opposites of each other. The opposite of life is death, not eternal suffering. As mentioned above, when eternal or everlasting applies to the righteous it means for eternity because they are given immortality. However, ‘aionos’ when applying to wicked shows that ‘aionos’ would be temporary.

The Worm Dieth Not and Unquenchable Fire

When the Bible uses ‘unquenchable fire’ it is to show that the fire cannot be put out and will burn as long as there is something to burn. For however long it lasts, there will be no interruption, nor any chance of quenching the fire. This does not mean that it will not go out, just that it will do its work uninterrupted as long as life lasts. See this usage in Jeremiah as well.

But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath Day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched - Jeremiah 17:27
This occurred when Babylon sacked Jerusalem. Obviously, Jerusalem's gates still aren't burning, are they? No because unquenchable does not mean that the fires will not go out, but that they cannot be put out.

Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched – Mark 9: 44
We have seen that unquenchable fire shows the continuity and finality of the punishment. Notice that these verses are used together for the same purpose. It is logical that the phrase “the worm dieth not†is also used in the same fashion. Again, notice the OT reference.

And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me. For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24
This verse explains the finality and disgustingness of death and the obliteration of God’s enemies. To apply the ‘worm dieth not’ to mean the eternal torment of an immortal soul is to ignore the metaphorical language used by the OT writers from which John the Revelator drew his imagery. Also it is to make it seem that there will actually be eternal worms feeding on the ‘soul’. The worms would have to be immortal as well. How this is possible defies any logical reasoning.

Rather, the worms are to be understood in the same concept of unquenchable fire: they will continue their work uninterrupted until the job is done. They cannot be squashed or die naturally until their work is finished. That makes this imagery support annihilation even more than eternal torment because nothing can stop the work of the fire and worm. They will completely eradicate what they are feeding on. Hence, these verses support annihilation and not eternal torment as is initially thought!

Consuming and devouring

What do these words mean? The fires at the end of time will do exactly this. What does it mean to 'be consumed'? Simply put, it means to be 'burnt up'

(See Malachi 4:1,3, and 2 Peter 3:10)

Does the bible support this view? Yes! Look at Exodus 3:2

And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed - Exodus 3:2
Do you see this? Even though the bush was burning, it didn't burn up! It was not consumed! To be consumed is to be burned up! The fire that comes down from heaven 'devours/consumes' the wicked. The OPPOSITE of consuming is to burn continually.

Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth

Some say that Matthew 13:50 shows the eternal torment of the wicked. How could they be wailing and gnashing their teeth if they are destroyed? First of all, this is probably explaining the frustration and mental pain of being separated from God rather than from the actual fire. Regardless, even if it were, it still doesn’t mean that this would be eternal. There will be torment and there will be pain, but it will eventually end.

Folks, I haven't even gotten into

1) most of the annihilation texts in the scriptures
2) the word studies of the biblical usage of the word 'death', 'destroy', 'perish' and 'destruction'. Needless to say that these words when used in the final reward of the wicked do not denote 'eternal torment'.
3) the judicial, moral, cosmic or logical fallacies of the traditional view of hell and eternal torment

This is merely scriptural refutation of the traditional interpretation of the 'eternal torment' passages people use.

The truth of our loving God's character is there to see folks. Let's stop besmirching it to the world while contradictoraly calling our God a 'God of love'. The two are not compatible. Plain and simple.

Thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy post. I pray that it will move your hearts and cause the scales to fall from your eyes. :)
 
T

thessalonian

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gingercat said:
Thank you quibox. That makes sense.
Oddly enough every theology makes sense to someone. So that it makes sense to you is proof of nothing. I suspect that Aristotle and Socrates were far more intelligent than you and I as were many others. Mormon theology makes "sense" to mormons and so does JW theology to JW's. Truth is not unreasonable of course but it cannot be reasoned. It must be revealed. Making sense is not the sole arbitar of truth. Annihilationism has always been heresy in Christianity. No amount of distortion will make it otherwise.
 
G

gingercat

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Thessalonian said:
gingercat said:
Thank you quibox. That makes sense.
Oddly enough every theology makes sense to someone. So that it makes sense to you is proof of nothing. I suspect that Aristotle and Socrates were far more intelligent than you and I as were many others. Mormon theology makes "sense" to mormons and so does JW theology to JW's. Truth is not unreasonable of course but it cannot be reasoned. It must be revealed. Making sense is not the sole arbitar of truth. Annihilationism has always been heresy in Christianity. No amount of distortion will make it otherwise.
You are right Thess, I just want to encourge people I agree with. It just showing him support. We need encouragement from time to time since we have so many SDA bashers. :wink:
 

Drew

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Thessalonian said:
Annihilationism has always been heresy in Christianity. No amount of distortion will make it otherwise.
Greetings Thessalonian:

Can you provide a substantial argument to counter what guibox has said? Can you tell us exactly why this annihilationism is heretical? I do not make this request glibly, realizing such an undertaking would be very challenging. Where exactly, are the flaws in the actual content of what guibox has written?
 

Drew

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One of the things that I find compelling about guibox's argument is that he (she?) actually "makes a case". One of the key elements of the case seems to be the argument that the OT "sets a precedent" for us in regard as to how to interpret certain words (everlasting, forever, unquenchable, etc.). One theme of the argument seems to be "Words that seem to indicate infinite duration do not really have this connotation if internal coherence in the Bible is to be assumed and here are examples from the OT where these same words are used and it is clear that infinite duration is not meant" (for example, Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly not burning today).

Anybody care to counter-argue, directly addressing guibox's argument? I find the "internal coherence" argument to be very attractive - it seem eminently reasonable that if it can be established that word/phase "x" as used in the OT has meaning "y", then it seems reasonable to ascribe meaning "y" when that same word/phase is used in the NT (even if "y" seems to contradict a 21st century reading of word/phrase "x").
 
G

Gary

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guibox said:
Revelation 20:10 should read like this,
Quote:
They are cast into the lake of fire where they shall be tormented continually until their life ends
You may want it to read like that. The reality is that it reads like this:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NKJV)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NASB)

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (NIV)

Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NLT)

και ο διαβολος ο πλανων αυτους εβληθη εις την λιμνην του πυρος και θειου οπου και το θηριον και ο ψευδοπροφητης και βασανισθησονται ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων. (WHNU)

:)
 

Drew

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Gary said:
You may want it to read like that. The reality is that it reads like this:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

etc/
Greetings Gary:

The whole tenor of guibox's argument (as I understand it) is that we simply cannot make conclusions based on a "plain reading", uninformed by OT precedents set in respect to certain phrases and words.

To effectively counterague, one would need to attack the actual content of his argument or explain why it is justifiable for us to take phrases like "for ever and ever" and interpret them in a plain "I understands 'em as I reads 'em" sense. Perhaps such a case exists, but it actually needs to be made.
 
G

Gary

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Matthew 25:46

"and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal".

και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον (WHNU)

Now there we have Jesus say it once again in very plain unambiguous language. And by the way, that Greek word there translated eternal [aionios], is the the exact same word there translated everlasting [aionios]. And so if these Theologians are going to wrest God's Word here to mean that in the Greek the punishment is really temporary, then they'll also have to open the huge can-o-worms and make it say there our life everlasting is temporary also. Because they're the exact same Greek word in the exact same application. As any faithful student of the Bible knows, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. But these are the problems which man gets into when He doesn't want to keep God's Word faithfully and wants to judge by what "seems" right in his own eyes. But to abandon counsel of God to believe whatever we think is good is the error of the ages.

Source: -here-
 

guibox

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Drew said:
One of the things that I find compelling about guibox's argument is that he (she?) actually "makes a case". One of the key elements of the case seems to be the argument that the OT "sets a precedent" for us in regard as to how to interpret certain words (everlasting, forever, unquenchable, etc.). One theme of the argument seems to be "Words that seem to indicate infinite duration do not really have this connotation if internal coherence in the Bible is to be assumed and here are examples from the OT where these same words are used and it is clear that infinite duration is not meant" (for example, Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly not burning today).
Thank you Drew, I couldn't have said it better myself. We must let the Bible explain itself instead of what we think the word means...BTW, I am male. :wink:

Gary said:
Now there we have Jesus say it once again in very plain unambiguous language. And by the way, that Greek word there translated eternal [aionios], is the the exact same word there translated everlasting [aionios]. And so if these Theologians are going to wrest God's Word here to mean that in the Greek the punishment is really temporary, then they'll also have to open the huge can-o-worms and make it say there our life everlasting is temporary also.
Gary, you obviously didn't read my post. I was afraid of that. I knew folks would come, see the texts that they like and begin to hash out old arguments without looking at the evidence.

I addressed this verse and the concept of 'forever and ever' and to whom it applies to.

Please read before we turn this into another 'forever and ever' brawl'
 

Bick

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Annihilation?

Guibox, I agree with you up to a point. I do not believe the Scriptures teach annihilation of the wicked.

Your use of logic is commendable, but I believe an accurate, literal translation will be the convincing proof to understand that 'everlasting' or 'eternal' is age-lasting, or 'to the age and beyond', particularly in the OT.

The word in Hebrew is 'olam' and is equivalent to 'aionion' in Greek. My Young's Concordance says they mean 'age-lasting', and the way to check this out is to study all the places where they occur, and then agree or disagree.

Olam in most English versions is rendered 'for ever' meaning unending.
Yet, Olam is doubled in 11 places, being interpreted as 'for ever and ever' or 'from everlasting to everlasting'. That is like saying 'without beginning or end' followed by another time 'without beginning or end', Which absolutely doesn't make sense. It does make sense to say 'from age to age'.

The same problem occurs when 'olam' is in the plural. It occurs 11 times in the OT and is translated 'for ever', 'everlasting', 'of ancient times', 'of old time', 'of old', and 'world without end' in the KJV. "To the ages" or "For the ages" are in Young's Literal or Rotherham's Translation, and are the literal meanings.

From my studies I understand, if something happens in a part of an age, it is said to happen 'for the age'.

Many times a man's life is said to be 'age-during'. Many times David says
he will give thanks to God, praise God for ever. But David is dead. He would praise him as long as he lived, his age.

An argument for 'olam' and aionion' meaning 'everlasting' is when it is used
with 'God'. Since God is without beginning and end, the reasoning is the words must mean 'eternal'. But think for a monent of the definition of 'God'. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing, all powerful, incorruptible, eternal, etc. When 'God' is used in scripture, no one needs to have all His attributes listed every time, because we know who God is. But to know that He is the Rock of Ages, the sustainer, the God of the ages, is an added revelation.

All for this post now. Bick
 

Bick

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Annihilation?

Gary, I'm glad you printed out the Greek text of Rev.20:10. I agree that Guibox's own rendering is off base somewhat.

Do you know that 'aionion' is the adjective form of 'aion'? It is an axiom of grammar that an adjective cannot be of greater force then it's noun. So, if 'aionion' means 'forever' or 'eternal', than 'aion' would have to mean 'ever' or 'eternity'. Would you buy that? Then what would you do with two or more eternities? For there are a number of places where 'aion' is in the plural including the text you referenced. It says 'eis tous aionas ton aionou', which my Greek-English Interlinear spells out as "for the ages of the ages". Now that makes sense.

I believe the key that unlocks the fullness of God's plan of redemption for all mankind, and a clearer understanding of the Scriptures is the teaching of the ages or eons. It is no wonder that a clear understanding of 'aion' is difficult, for in the KJV, it is translated 15 ways.

Here are just a few points to ponder: To add to the confusion, 'world' is used for 'aion' 32 times. Yet, there is a word for world...'kosmos'. Let's look at a few:
Matt. 13:39 "...harvest at the end of the world" This can't be 'the end of the world'. But it can be, and will be, the end of the age. See vs.40 & 49.

Matt.24:3 "...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?" If the world should end, why would Jesus come again?

And since many feel the KJV is almost error free, compare these verses with Eph.3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end." First, the end of the world. Here, world without end. Can't both be right. As a matter of fact all three are wrong.

In the first two, 'world' should be 'age' or 'eon'.

Eph.3:21 from Greek-English Interlinear: "..to him (be) glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages, Amen."

This is just a small bit, but enough for tonight, and God bless. Bick
 

Vic C.

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Hello Bick. My nephew used to call me Uncle Bic because he couldn't pronounce the letter v. :lol: Anyways... :oops:

Do you know that 'aionion' is the adjective form of 'aion'? It is an axiom of grammar that an adjective cannot be of greater force then it's noun. So, if 'aionion' means 'forever' or 'eternal', than 'aion' would have to mean 'ever' or 'eternity'. Would you buy that? Then what would you do with two or more eternities? For there are a number of places where 'aion' is in the plural including the text you referenced. It says 'eis tous aionas ton aionou', which my Greek-English Interlinear spells out as "for the ages of the ages". Now that makes sense.
Heh, we're getting into ELMisms here. I agree; ages of the ages is correct. But what if aionion doesn't mean eternal, but could be describing an undetermined but finite period of time, with ages describing a series of finite periods? Hmm...

No, I am not UR. I lean towards eternal separation brought on by the perishing of the individual. I believe perishing is finite as well. I disagree with UR; I cannot assume that just because the punishment is finite and not eternal that all will be saved. I just don't see in Scripture where there is another chance for redemption after Revelation 20:15.

"I make all things new."... yeah, all that is left. 8-)
 

Heidi

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Gary said:
guibox said:
Revelation 20:10 should read like this,
Quote:
They are cast into the lake of fire where they shall be tormented continually until their life ends
You may want it to read like that. The reality is that it reads like this:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NKJV)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NASB)

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (NIV)

Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NLT)

και ο διαβολος ο πλανων αυτους εβληθη εις την λιμνην του πυρος και θειου οπου και το θηριον και ο ψευδοπροφητης και βασανισθησονται ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων. (WHNU)

:)
Good post, Gary. Those who like to make up their own gospels like the SDA's had better read what Paul says about people who make up thier own gospels or they're in danger of finding out firsthand exactly what Revelations means by burning in the lake of fire for all of eternity. Since they don't believe the bible now, they'll surely understand it when they die. ;-)
 
L

Lyric's Dad

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Heidi said:
Gary said:
guibox said:
Revelation 20:10 should read like this,
Quote:
They are cast into the lake of fire where they shall be tormented continually until their life ends
You may want it to read like that. The reality is that it reads like this:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NKJV)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NASB)

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (NIV)

Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NLT)

και ο διαβολος ο πλανων αυτους εβληθη εις την λιμνην του πυρος και θειου οπου και το θηριον και ο ψευδοπροφητης και βασανισθησονται ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων. (WHNU)

:)
Good post, Gary. Those who like to make up their own gospels like the SDA's had better read what Paul says about people who make up thier own gospels or they're in danger of finding out firsthand exactly what Revelations means by burning in the lake of fire for all of eternity. Since they don't believe the bible now, they'll surely understand it when they die. ;-)
Maybe the gospel you and gary adhere to is the one that is new.

Seems the op was able to take this back to the OT and has backed his claims with scripture. What says you are right then?
 

Heidi

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Since we have different interpretations, then we can't both be right now, can we? One of us is right and the other one is wrong, plain and simply. Therefore, just because someone thinks something doesn't at all make it true. That's what worldly people think. Once again, the bible doesn't contradict itself. Any interpretatuion that contradicts any other part of scripture is a false one. And the SDA's contradict Hebrews 4:1-9.
 

guibox

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Re: Annihilation?

Bick said:
The word in Hebrew is 'olam' and is equivalent to 'aionion' in Greek. My Young's Concordance says they mean 'age-lasting', and the way to check this out is to study all the places where they occur, and then agree or disagree. Many times a man's life is said to be 'age-during'. Many times David says
he will give thanks to God, praise God for ever. But David is dead. He would praise him as long as he lived, his age.

An argument for 'olam' and aionion' meaning 'everlasting' is when it is used
with 'God'. Since God is without beginning and end, the reasoning is the words must mean 'eternal'. But think for a monent of the definition of 'God'. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing, all powerful, incorruptible, eternal, etc. When 'God' is used in scripture, no one needs to have all His attributes listed every time, because we know who God is. But to know that He is the Rock of Ages, the sustainer, the God of the ages, is an added revelation.

All for this post now. Bick
That is my point, Bick. When referring to the wicked, forever is temporal (Just like you pointed out with David and I did with Samuel as well as the destruction of wicked Edom in Isaiah 34:10).

All of you are harping on one term (which obviously is ambiguous with different interpretations) in one or two verses and ignoring the rest of scripture.

This is what I intended to avoid in my using all of scriptural references. Judging from many comments here from some traditionalists, it seems to be ignored and unread.

Why do even bother?

Some of you were having a problem with the way I interpreted Revelation 20:10. In light of my using the scriptures to interpret the meanings (i.e., no rest day or night showing continuity, not duration etc), the meaning of R20:10 is quite clear.

Again, please read Isaiah 34:10 and comment on the similarities and why we should interpret the same language in Revelation 14 and 20 as completely opposite of thier meaning in Isaiah?

Let's do that first, shall we traditionalists?


And Heidi, why don't you go and actually read the post instead of reverting this thread to another SDA-bashing thread. (Even bringing the Sabbath into it for Pete's sake! :roll: )

Go somewhere else to do this, please.
 

Drew

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Heidi said:
Those who like to make up their own gospels like the SDA's had better read what Paul says about people who make up thier own gospels or they're in danger of finding out firsthand exactly what Revelations means by burning in the lake of fire for all of eternity. Since they don't believe the bible now, they'll surely understand it when they die. ;-)
Heidi, please post some actual content and not simple rhetoric.
 
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yesha

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I believe annihilation to be an eternal punishment.
The opposite of eternal life.
 

Free

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But that's just it, annihilation isn't punishment at all, it's just non-existence.
 
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