Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

[guibox]

But that's just it, annihilation isn't punishment at all, it's just non-existence.

Death and not continual torture is the ultimate punishment here on earth. I fail to see why God would do things differently when it is His morality He has ingrained in man and never, even in a theodicy that He ruled has expected or ordered such a thing.

Is it some inate desire for blood lust to think that Divine justice against sin can only be satisfied with pain and torture??

"The wages of sin is death" This is the natural law of sin. God doesn't want us to suffer, that is why He came to this earth. He doesn't want us to die with sin! Why would He change the death penalty of Romans 6:23 to institute pain and suffering for trillions of years?

Death is indeed a punishment and just rewards for sin. Ultimately, it is sin that destroys us, not God. Just the mere knowledge of the damned that they will never experience eternal life with God is almost punishment enough. They will realize their just rewards. Hence the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'. They will experience ultimate loss before they are destroyed.

What more do you want?

What kind of a God do you serve?

 

[Solo]

How many angels that were created are still alive?

All of them.

How many angels will be cast into the lake of fire?

As many of them as rebelled against God.

How many angels will die in the lake of fire?

None, angels are immortal.

Will satan and his angels be tormented for ever and ever?

According to the Bible, yes.

Where did Jesus say that those that were judged as goats would be sent?

To the place of everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that was created for the immortal angels and devil.

Would those that were judged as goats be sent to the same area of punishment of the devil and his angels before they die on this earth?

No, they will be sent there after their death.

Will they be conscious?

Yes, just as the righteous are conscious before their redemption, the lost will too be conscious as they are in punishment.

Will God have the ability to judge the devil and his angels with everlasting punishment and fire?

Yes, that is exactly what the Word of God teaches.

God's Word teaches plainly that the unbelievers are condemned to eternal damnation in everlasting punishment and everlasting fire where the devil and his angels will be tormented forever and ever with no rest day or night. A continual place of torment, fire, and punishment.

 

[Drew]

How many angels that were created are still alive?

All of them.

How many angels will be cast into the lake of fire?

As many of them as rebelled against God.

How many angels will die in the lake of fire?

None, angels are immortal.

Will satan and his angels be tormented for ever and ever?

According to the Bible, yes.

Where did Jesus say that those that were judged as goats would be sent?

To the place of everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that was created for the immortal angels and devil.

Would those that were judged as goats be sent to the same area of punishment of the devil and his angels before they die on this earth?

No, they will be sent there after their death.

Will they be conscious?

Yes, just as the righteous are conscious before their redemption, the lost will too be conscious as they are in punishment.

Will God have the ability to judge the devil and his angels with everlasting punishment and fire?

Yes, that is exactly what the Word of God teaches.

God's Word teaches plainly that the unbelievers are condemned to eternal damnation in everlasting punishment and everlasting fire where the devil and his angels will be tormented forever and ever with no rest day or night. A continual place of torment, fire, and punishment.

Fair enough as a statement of a position.

Now where is the support (Biblical or otherwise)?

 

[SputnikBoy]

How many angels that were created are still alive?

All of them.

How many angels will be cast into the lake of fire?

As many of them as rebelled against God.

How many angels will die in the lake of fire?

None, angels are immortal.

Will satan and his angels be tormented for ever and ever?

According to the Bible, yes.

Where did Jesus say that those that were judged as goats would be sent?

To the place of everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that was created for the immortal angels and devil.

Would those that were judged as goats be sent to the same area of punishment of the devil and his angels before they die on this earth?

No, they will be sent there after their death.

Will they be conscious?

Yes, just as the righteous are conscious before their redemption, the lost will too be conscious as they are in punishment.

Will God have the ability to judge the devil and his angels with everlasting punishment and fire?

Yes, that is exactly what the Word of God teaches.

God's Word teaches plainly that the unbelievers are condemned to eternal damnation in everlasting punishment and everlasting fire where the devil and his angels will be tormented forever and ever with no rest day or night. A continual place of torment, fire, and punishment.

Annihilation. I can understand that concept and, right now anyway, I agree with it 100%. It makes logical sense and aligns nicely with scripture as guibox' post presented so well. Heidi, of course, has other agenda to push that has nothing to do with the thread issue. Guibox presented his argument with scripture, Heidi as always went off on a tangent about SDAs.

I'm really curious, however, about the 'everlasting torment' theology of mainstream Christianity and I require more information before I can even consider it. Those who promote 'eternal torment' go so far and then quit. I hate being left hanging. What EXACTLY happens to these people who are suffering 'eternal torment'? I mean, is hell some humongous pit where people simply moan and scream and writh in agony? Do they have opportunities to accomplish anything with their 'fiery' lives? Do they study, do they eat, do they drink, do they converse, do they sleep, etc? What fuels the fire ...something supernatural?

What about the 'saved'? Do they have ring-side seats watching their friends and loved ones being tortured? Do they laugh and point their finger and say, "Serves you right for not believing!" Do they weep for their friends and their loved ones and wish they could do something about it? Are the ''saved' even aware that their friends and loved ones who 'didn't make it' are currently being roasted in hell and in agony? How do they feel about this? How do they feel about God? Come on, enlighten me.

Do the wicked suffer according to the size of their sins while on earth? Would this therefore necessitate the use of different racks such as an oven? Do we picture those with less serious sins on the upper rack further away from the flames? ...the more serious sinners on the lower rack closer to the flames? ...always on the verge of death but God never allowing the torment to end for them, never letting them mercifully die?

Are the wicked like steaks ...rare, medium rare, well-done? I mean, if I'm to change my belief on this serious issue I need something more than the horrendous fairy stories that are taught by mainstream Christianity. I sometimes think that mainstrean theology is more based on Chic comic-book 'theology' than on the Bible. Please help me believe what you believe. Until you do I have no other alternative than to call the literal 'eternal torment' concept a lot of scorched baloney.

 

[guibox]

How many angels will die in the lake of fire?

None, angels are immortal.

Will satan and his angels be tormented for ever and ever?

According to the Bible, yes

The angels and Satan were created beings just like us. Their immortality or non-immortality is in the hands of the Creator God, the sustainer of all life. If God chooses to destroy them, He can. As a matter of fact, look at the text of Ezekiel that is associated with a dual application to the King of Tyre and Satan. Read Ezekiel 28:13-18 and notice particularly verse 18:

Therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee. It shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of allthat behold thee.

Devoured like the wicked in Revelation 20:8. Brought to ashes like the wicked in Malachi 4:1,3. You see, God is that loving that He doesn't even want His enemy to suffer needlessly more than what He deserves.

Would those that were judged as goats be sent to the same area of punishment of the devil and his angels before they die on this earth?

No, they will be sent there after their death.

Will they be conscious?

Yes, just as the righteous are conscious before their redemption, the lost will too be conscious as they are in punishment

This is false and based on a cursory interpretation of Luke 16. The fires at the end of time are 'gehenna', not 'Hades' where all go where they die. This is the fallacy of the traditional interpretation of 'hell'. The word hell has three different meanings. You cannot make them all one.

God's Word teaches plainly that the unbelievers are condemned to eternal damnation in everlasting punishment and everlasting fire where the devil and his angels will be tormented forever and ever with no rest day or night. A continual place of torment, fire, and punishment.

Perhaps you actually need to go back and re-read my post, Solo.

In fact let me ask all the posters this question:

How many of you posting here have actually read the original post??? Please go back and read it before you jump in this conversation please. The whole point of starting this was based on the original post

 

[Free]

But that's just it, annihilation isn't punishment at all, it's just non-existence.

Death and not continual torture is the ultimate punishment here on earth. I fail to see why God would do things differently when it is His morality He has ingrained in man and never, even in a theodicy that He ruled has expected or ordered such a thing.

This is based on the false assumptions of the mortality of the soul and that "eternal torment" is the same as "eternal torture".

Is it some inate desire for blood lust to think that Divine justice against sin can only be satisfied with pain and torture??

What is the one thing throughout the OT and NT that is used for the forgiveness of sins? And again, look at what the Bible really says about eternal punishment.

"The wages of sin is death" This is the natural law of sin. God doesn't want us to suffer, that is why He came to this earth. He doesn't want us to die with sin! Why would He change the death penalty of Romans 6:23 to institute pain and suffering for trillions of years?

On the one hand you admit that death is "the natural law of sin." But on the other you want it to apply to the soul as well. Again, based on the false assumption of the mortality of the soul. As well, "death" has different nuances throughout Scripture as does "soul," something you have continually overlooked. Well, hey, look on the bright side, you may be wrong but at least you are consistent. ;)

Death is indeed a punishment and just rewards for sin.

Man was created to be in relationship with the eternal God. Jesus died so that those who believe in him could be restored in that relationship for eternity. You focus too much on the punishment of the sins we commit while forgetting the ultimate sin - rejecting the sacrifice of the eternal God himself. That is an eternal sin.

Just the mere knowledge of the damned that they will never experience eternal life with God is almost punishment enough. They will realize their just rewards. Hence the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

And now you are getting closer to what I stated at the beginning. There is a difference between torture and torment. I don't think anyone can show where the Bible states that "eternal torture" is the punishment; it is "eternal torment". "Torment" carries with it the idea of inner anguish - "they will realize their just rewards".

Notice that after unbelievers are "thrown into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15), the "second death" (v. 14), that Jesus still states in Rev. 22:14-15:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

What more do you want?

What kind of a God do you serve?

I want adherence to the truths of Scripture, whose author I serve.

 

[Solo]

How many of you posting here have actually read the original post??? Please go back and read it before you jump in this conversation please. The whole point of starting this was based on the original post

I have read all of the annihiliation writers twisting and turning of the Word of God to fit their opinions of truth, but they are all in error as they fail to meet with adequate dividing of the Word of God. You can believe whatever you want to, but the teaching of annihiliation is a farce.
Thanks.

 

[Drew]

I have read all of the annihiliation writers twisting and turning of the Word of God to fit their opinions of truth, but they are all in error as they fail to meet with adequate dividing of the Word of God. You can believe whatever you want to, but the teaching of annihiliation is a farce.
Thanks.

Silly me, now I see it! Here I was thinking that a study of the scriptures and associated analysis was needed. Silly guibox! Actually making a biblical argument! Silly Sputnik! Actually asking us to examine the content of the doctrine of an eternal hell. Now I see that we simply need this declaration to settle the matter. Now I can go back to watching football.

It is your concept of responsible debate that is the farce.

 

[Servant_2000]

Well..I'm adding my .02 cents worth to this conversation.

The Bible teaches that the lost must endure eternal conscious torment. This truth remains written in the Bible, whether or not it rubs uncomfortably against all human reason. Proof for this is found in Matthew 25:46, in which eternal life is compared to eternal punishment in duration and state. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous unto life eternal."

Revelation 14:10-11 says those who receive the mark of the Antichrist will not be annihilated, but will suffer eternal torment. "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Another passage that describes the eternal state of the wicked is Revelation 20:10-15. Here Satan, together with the beast and the false prophet, are "tormented day and night for ever and ever." If the Devil and Antichrist and the False Prophet of the Great Tribulation are tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire, this obviously will be the lot of all who are cast there.

The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the lost would suffer eternal torment. Three times in Mark 9 Christ spoke of hell as "the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched..." Mark. 9:43-48. This is the language of eternal suffering.

Some have argued that though the fire is eternal, the punishment is not. This is an impossible interpretation, because Christ taught that the punishment of the lost would be worse than a violent destruction or loss of existence. Mark 9:42 warns that it is better for the wicked to hang a millstone about his neck and be cast into the sea than face God's judgment. In verse 43, Jesus began to describe the horrors of Hell. In other words, Hell is going to be worse than any violent destruction. The suffering is eternal in duration. In Matthew 26:24, the Lord said this punishment will be worse than loss of existence. "...it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

None of these verses make sense unless interpreted to describe the eternal conscious torment of the unsaved. All the ramifications of this doctrine might be difficult for us to understand, but the truth remains that God has revealed it and our part is to accept it by faith. Hell is a place of fire, and it is a place where the suffering is eternal. These Scriptures should be a loud warning to every man, woman, and child that life is no game; salvation is not a thing to delay for even an hour. No time should be wasted in finding security in the Savior, whose blood "cleanseth us from all sin." No effort should be spared in reaching lost souls for Christ. Hell, indeed, is as eternal in state and in duration as is the believer ís Heaven.

The SDA explanation of Revelation 20:10 is an obvious perversion. Adventists use Ezekiel 28:19 to "prove" that Satan shall be utterly annihilated, then "explain" Revelation 20:10 to fit this interpretation. The prophecy of Ezekiel 28 has a double reference. It speaks of the historical city of Tyre and its king, and it also looks beyond Tyreís king to Satan, the god of this world. Every detail of the prophecy cannot be made to fit the Devil. Verse 18, for example, says, "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Does the Bible elsewhere say that the Devil will be brought to ashes upon the earth? No, this would contradict the plain teaching of Revelation as to Satan's end. When verse 19 says, "never shalt thou be any more," it is referring to the city of Tyre as well as to the Devilís influence on the earth. After he is judged, he will not be any more in this world, no longer active to carry out his nefarious deeds.

 

[yesha]

But that's just it, annihilation isn't punishment at all, it's just non-existence.

That's like saying the death penalty isn't a punishment at all, it's just loss of life.

Also, I believe that the soul is mortal. Mt 10:28, for example, as proof.

 

[yesha]

servant 2000,

Well..I'm adding my .02 cents worth to this conversation.

The Bible teaches that the lost must endure eternal conscious torment. This truth remains written in the Bible, whether or not it rubs uncomfortably against all human reason. Proof for this is found in Matthew 25:46, in which eternal life is compared to eternal punishment in duration and state. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous unto life eternal."

Annihilation, I think is an everlasting punishment. It's like being thrown into a furnace, and you don't come back out, because you dead. If they are alive in hell, they too have life eternal. The opposite of eternal life is annihilation.

Revelation 14:10-11 says those who receive the mark of the Antichrist will not be annihilated, but will suffer eternal torment. "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

The antichrist, whom copies Jesus, probably offers eternal life to his followers. As Christ followers share in Christ's life, so too those who receive the mark of the antichrist, the complement of receiving the Holy Spirit, will probably share in the antichrists eternal torture.

Another passage that describes the eternal state of the wicked is Revelation 20:10-15. Here Satan, together with the beast and the false prophet, are "tormented day and night for ever and ever." If the Devil and Antichrist and the False Prophet of the Great Tribulation are tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire, this obviously will be the lot of all who are cast there.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (mt 10:28)

The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the lost would suffer eternal torment. Three times in Mark 9 Christ spoke of hell as "the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched..." Mark. 9:43-48. This is the language of eternal suffering.

This is the language of a memorial graveyard.

Isa 66:24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Some have argued that though the fire is eternal, the punishment is not. This is an impossible interpretation, because Christ taught that the punishment of the lost would be worse than a violent destruction or loss of existence. Mark 9:42 warns that it is better for the wicked to hang a millstone about his neck and be cast into the sea than face God's judgment. In verse 43, Jesus began to describe the horrors of Hell. In other words, Hell is going to be worse than any violent destruction. The suffering is eternal in duration. In Matthew 26:24, the Lord said this punishment will be worse than loss of existence. "...it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

This is a good point. I need to give it some thought, though the memorial graveyard imagery might make sense of this.

 

[Free]

But that's just it, annihilation isn't punishment at all, it's just non-existence.

That's like saying the death penalty isn't a punishment at all, it's just loss of life.

Also, I believe that the soul is mortal. Mt 10:28, for example, as proof.

Punishment is something done to someone that implies pain, suffering, or a sense of loss. Punishment is given not only to satisfy justice, but to bring the puinished to a place of realization that what they've done is wrong. From our physical perspective the death penalty doesn't do this and in that sense it isn't punishment, it is only justice served.

But it is punishment in a far greater sense because there is a life after this in which it is too late to choose to do good and the punished meets face to face with the Perfect Judge. There is still punishment after the dealth penalty.

Anyway, I'm having some difficulty getting out my thoughts. Suffice to say that logically speaking, ceasing to exist is not punishment at all since there is no conscious awareness of punishment. You are trying to equate an event with nothingness.

As for Matthew 10:28, I fail to see why it is continually pointed to as proof of the mortality of the soul, since it does proves quite the opposite:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

Notice that man can kill the body but that only God can kill the soul. This means that death of the body does not result in the death of the soul. Also notice that it does not say that God will destroy the soul, only that He can, that He is able to.

 

[SputnikBoy]

But that's just it, annihilation isn't punishment at all, it's just non-existence.

That's like saying the death penalty isn't a punishment at all, it's just loss of life.

Also, I believe that the soul is mortal. Mt 10:28, for example, as proof.

Punishment is something done to someone that implies pain, suffering, or a sense of loss. Punishment is given not only to satisfy justice, but to bring the punished to a place of realization that what they've done is wrong. From our physical perspective the death penalty doesn't do this and in that sense it isn't punishment, it is only justice served.

You're looking at this from a human perspective. Even so, the punishment as metered out today by civilized societies is, as you say, a sense of loss or incarceration. It's the loss of one's freedom, the freedom to make decisions and choices for oneself, helplessness ...actually the most devastating punishment of all is this one. I'm sure that any 'lifer' would settle for 50 lashes every day of their lives if they could only have their freedom returned to them.

But it is punishment in a far greater sense because there is a life after this in which it is too late to choose to do good and the punished meets face to face with the Perfect Judge. There is still punishment after the dealth penalty.

I don't believe the Bible teaches this. The loss of promised continued life IS the punishment. Life is the most precious thing we have. All of us healthy functioning individuals would give all we have if we could live forever ...even survive an extra day! Death is the enemy ...even for nonChristians. We fear it, it's unnatural to us, and surviving is the natural instinct in all of us. Death and nothingness is the most fearful thing any of us could imagine. We cling to life as a drowning man would clutch at a straw.

Anyway, I'm having some difficulty getting out my thoughts.

You're not alone there!

Suffice it to to say that logically speaking, ceasing to exist is not punishment at all since there is no conscious awareness of punishment. You are trying to equate an event with nothingness.

The difference is that you're looking at this issue through 'human' spectacles. Most of us DESIRE that the guilty suffer a certain amount of torment. Most of us have some vindictive streak in us, some more so than others. Read some of the threads on this forum if you have a problem believing this ...whoo boy! We therefore apply that thinking to God. It's almost annoying to some that God would allow someone to escape the suffering of 'their just deserts'. Just as long as that 'someone' isn't them, that is!

I do believe, however, that we can apply some form of logic to an issue that has two alternatives. The 'logic' to this issue does NOT support 'eternal torment' for all of the reasons so far presented.

As for Matthew 10:28, I fail to see why it is continually pointed to as proof of the mortality of the soul, since it does proves quite the opposite:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

Notice that man can kill the body but that only God can kill the soul. This means that death of the body does not result in the death of the soul. Also notice that it does not say that God will destroy the soul, only that He can, that He is able to.

But you're assuming (by virtue of the commonly held belief of hell) that God will NOT destroy the soul simply in order to make the individual suffer. No disrespect intended but, if this is God, then you can have Him! I'll take my chances on having made that remark based on my understanding that this is NOT God.

 

[guibox]

The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the lost would suffer eternal torment. Three times in Mark 9 Christ spoke of hell as "the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched..." Mark. 9:43-48. This is the language of eternal suffering..

I guess when I am on your 'ignore' list (I'm not completely sure why. I don't really know what I did to offend you), you would miss the original post of this thread. Needless to say, I have shown quite clearly using the bible as its own interpreter that this is NOT the language of eternal suffering.

Perhaps you should take me off ignore long enough to go and read it.

Some have argued that though the fire is eternal, the punishment is not. This is an impossible interpretation, because Christ taught that the punishment of the lost would be worse than a violent destruction or loss of existence. Mark 9:42 warns that it is better for the wicked to hang a millstone about his neck and be cast into the sea than face God's judgment. In verse 43, Jesus began to describe the horrors of Hell. In other words, Hell is going to be worse than any violent destruction. The suffering is eternal in duration. In Matthew 26:24, the Lord said this punishment will be worse than loss of existence. "...it had been good for that man if he had not been born.".

Nobody is saying that the punishing that occurs is going to be a walk in the park. Nobody is even saying that there will not be any degrees of punishing. ('no rest day or night until life lasts' can mean a lengthy, continual period or a short one). The point of the matter is, is that it will end.

If I stick bamboo under your fingernails, shave off the skin on the bottom of your feet with a meat cleaver then stand you in salt, then use a blowtorch on your extremities, then disembowel you and then shoot you dead, do you not think that you will suffer and 'wish you had never been born' compared to if I just slammed your finger in the door and THEN killed you?

Jesus' words in no way negates an eventual finality to the fire.

The SDA explanation of Revelation 20:10 is an obvious perversion. Adventists use Ezekiel 28:19 to "prove" that Satan shall be utterly annihilated, then "explain" Revelation 20:10 to fit this interpretation. The prophecy of Ezekiel 28 has a double reference. It speaks of the historical city of Tyre and its king, and it also looks beyond Tyreís king to Satan, the god of this world. Every detail of the prophecy cannot be made to fit the Devil. Verse 18, for example, says, "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Does the Bible elsewhere say that the Devil will be brought to ashes upon the earth? No, this would contradict the plain teaching of Revelation as to Satan's end. When verse 19 says, "never shalt thou be any more," it is referring to the city of Tyre as well as to the Devilís influence on the earth. After he is judged, he will not be any more in this world, no longer active to carry out his nefarious deeds.

I wish you and others would get off this 'SDA' kick. As a matter of fact, servant, you mentioned John Stott as a preacher of the 'true gospel'. Did you know that he is a strong promoter of annihilation and a firm denier of eternal torment? It is not an 'SDA' thing.

Nonetheless, Ezekiel 28 IS speaking about Lucifer. You insist on saying that one part of Satan being brought to 'ashes', doesn't apply because it doesn't fit into your eisigetical interpretation of Revelation 20. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't (or couldn't) be interpreted that way.

 

[BenJasher]

Actually, in all doctrinal clarity and fairness, using the Bible to speak for itself, the only thing that the scriptures outright say will go on for "ever and ever" is the "smoke of their torment."

It does not say that their torment goes on for ever and ever.

In reading through this thread, I see a couple of things:
1) The only seemingly real student of the scriptures here is Guibox. He documents what he believes with scriptures. He doesn't waste a whole lot of his brain cells with fairy tales and conjecture, and Dark Age superstition. I can't say the same for the ET crowd here that have been so vociferous about telling him he is wrong. I say that inspite of the fact that I disagree with his conclusions.
2) The only Et in the crowd that has shown any tendency toward not having their mind clouded with fables and superstition is Vic.
3) I haven't included any of the URs in this discussion, because that could be mistook as a bias in favor of my own beliefs.
4) I thought that this discussion would be a violation of the TOS, and would have been shut down by the Mods.
5)If the Mods aren't going to shut it down, I will come out of "lurkerland" in fill regalia and cause it to be shut down, or get myself banned, depending on how selectively the Mods want to enforce the TOS.
6) If the URs cannot present their beliefs here without a mailed fist slapping their mouth shut, the Ets and anhilationists shouldn't be allowed to either, and this is in agreement with the TOS on the subject.

Good day to you all!

 

[Drew]

Greetings BenJasher:

Although Vic may want to "lay low", and perhaps I should not speak for him, I will disagree with your claim that he is an "ET er". Note that he writes the following:

I lean towards eternal separation brought on by the perishing of the individual. I believe perishing is finite as well. I disagree with UR; I cannot assume that just because the punishment is finite and not eternal that all will be saved

This seems like an annihilationist perspective to me.

I would hope that the Mods would not shut down this topic, although I can see your point about equal treatment of ET, annihilation, and UR.

 

[Vic C.]

...I would hope that the Mods would not shut down this topic, although I can see your point about equal treatment of ET, annihilation, and UR.

Drew and Ben, this is how it went down: the topic of UR was bannned from discussion not because any of us felt threatened by it, the UR camp brought it upon themselves. If either one of care to know the details of what went down, PM me.

I don't know who either of you are; for all I know, one or both of you could be former UR members. No offense intended and I don't really care who you are as long as your conduct here is within the TOS.

Oh, Ben, about this:

5)If the Mods aren't going to shut it down, I will come out of "lurkerland" in fill regalia and cause it to be shut down, or get myself banned, depending on how selectively the Mods want to enforce the TOS.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that caused the UR discussions to be shut down. I take this as a threat and a hostile statement. There's really no need to go down this road. Please do not spoil this for everyone.

Thank you,
Vic

 

[Michael A Disciple]

If Ezekiel 28 does not refer to Satan then from whence came he? We have heard many sermons on how he was a mighty angel of God and rebelled. Where does this come from if not Ezekiel?

If we approach scripture with the idea that it is ALL true it leads me to the annihilation doctrine. A deep study is often essential to rightly divide the truth. Thats what cross referencing is all about. Scripture has to be interpreted in the immediate context and also the entire context.

 

[Free]

If Ezekiel 28 does not refer to Satan then from whence came he? We have heard many sermons on how he was a mighty angel of God and rebelled. Where does this come from if not Ezekiel?

Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev 12:8 but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

If we approach scripture with the idea that it is ALL true it leads me to the annihilation doctrine.

That's funny because I find it leads me to eternal torment.

 

[Free]

If Ezekiel 28 does not refer to Satan then from whence came he? We have heard many sermons on how he was a mighty angel of God and rebelled. Where does this come from if not Ezekiel?

Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev 12:8 but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

If we approach scripture with the idea that it is ALL true it leads me to the annihilation doctrine.

That's funny because I find it leads me to eternal torment. I don't care for your implications.