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Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

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Drew:
Unless I am badly mistook, Vic is of the female persuasion

Servant2000 said:
The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the lost would suffer eternal torment. Three times in Mark 9 Christ spoke of hell as "the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched..." Mark. 9:43-48. This is the language of eternal suffering.

No. This is not the language of eternal suffering. Let us take a look at the scriptures and let them speak for themselves, giving us the benefit of context and usage in the case of the terms in question here.

Jeremiah 7:20 Jerusalem and the Temple were to be burned with a fire that shall not be quenched. Is Jerusalem still on fire?No.

Jeremiah 17:27 Same as above. The answer is still the same. There is no fire that still burns there.

Isaiah 34:10 Edom was to become a stream of burning pitch that shall not be quenched. Is there a stream of pitch that is still on fire in Edom? No.

Ezekiel 20:47 same applies. I could go on and on.

A fire that is not quenched, or an unquenchable fire, is not one that will burn for the outermost limits of eternity. If that were true, Jerusalem would still be on fire, and uninhabitable. Edom would be a stream of burning pitch that has been on fire for about 2500 years. Some of what we take for granted as being truth is absolute nonsense when carefully considered in its intended context.

More correctly, a fire that is not quenched is a fire that cannot be extinguished until it has consumed all its fuel, or accomplished the purpose for which it was ignited. Unquenchable fires do go out.

In light of this, we who want to rightly divide the word of truth are only left with two viable options. One of those options would be to conclude that God cannot be trusted to do what He says He will do. The other option would be for us to conclude that what we have been taught all our lives was the truth, may not be. The choice is yours which option you go with. But as for me, I am absolutely convinced that He can be trusted with what He tells me.

This is the language of eternal suffering.

We really need to be careful when making statements like this. The weak among us, and the unstable and the unlearned may take our words to be the truth when in fact they are not.

Many people will read Eternal Torment into the words of Jesus when He uses cryptic language like this. "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" comes directly from Isaiah 66, where it refers to the dead bodies of those who have transgressed against the Lord. It is not a reference to lost souls in the torment of the afterlife. Read it for yourself. It is a reference to dead bodies going through the natural process of decomposition. Rotting, putrification, maggots, flies, foul stench; all these are part of what Jesus was referring to.

For us, or anyone else to try to make these passages speak of eternal torment, or to say that it does, is a careless and irresponsible mishandling of the scriptures. We are called to a higher level of scholarship than that.

Vic said:
Oh, Ben, about this:

5)If the Mods aren't going to shut it down, I will come out of "lurkerland" in fill regalia and cause it to be shut down, or get myself banned, depending on how selectively the Mods want to enforce the TOS.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that caused the UR discussions to be shut down. I take this as a threat and a hostile statement. There's really no need to go down this road. Please do not spoil this for everyone.

Well, actually, this was not a display of childish attitude. It was not necessarily a hostile statement. It was a call for fairness on this whole thing.
 
Annihilation?

Interesting comment, Heidi. Would you mind giving a literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear New Testament of the Greek text Gary showed?

Bick
 
Re: Annihilation?

Bick said:
Interesting comment, Heidi. Would you mind giving a literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear New Testament of the Greek text Gary showed?

Bick

I have no idea to which post of mine you are referring.

But I have to change the subject here. Now every time I submit a post, it says "cannot debug". Then when I arrow back and click on the category in which I posted, my post is there. But I cannot initiate new topics because it won't post. Can anyone tell me what is going on with my computer? It definitely seems like a software issue. Sorry I had to post here but I cannot post new topics. Thanks. :)
 
BenJasher said:
Jeremiah 7:20 Jerusalem and the Temple were to be burned with a fire that shall not be quenched. Is Jerusalem still on fire?No.

Jeremiah 17:27 Same as above. The answer is still the same. There is no fire that still burns there.

Isaiah 34:10 Edom was to become a stream of burning pitch that shall not be quenched. Is there a stream of pitch that is still on fire in Edom? No.


More correctly, a fire that is not quenched is a fire that cannot be extinguished until it has consumed all its fuel, or accomplished the purpose for which it was ignited. Unquenchable fires do go out.

Many people will read Eternal Torment into the words of Jesus when He uses cryptic language like this. "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" comes directly from Isaiah 66, where it refers to the dead bodies of those who have transgressed against the Lord. It is not a reference to lost souls in the torment of the afterlife. Read it for yourself. It is a reference to dead bodies going through the natural process of decomposition. Rotting, putrification, maggots, flies, foul stench; all these are part of what Jesus was referring to.

Yes, the truth is so simple when we let the bible explain itself and not superimpose our preconceived ideas onto the text, isn't it?

BJ, I have already addressed all these posts as you have in my other thread 'Biblical case for annihilationism'. Unfortunately, people would rather call it 'false gospel' and believe that a loving God will allow the torture and torment of His children He came and died for (while we were YET sinners) instead of allowing sin to take it's natural course in their lives. Which gospel is truly false? Easy, which gospel portrays the character of God in a positive light? Your answer will tell you.

Somehow, this makes God's character much more loving, merciful, logical and just. :roll:

As for Vic, unless Vic likes to be associated as a man, he is a man for I have addressed him as 'he' numerous times and have not been corrected by him.

Vic...is there some secret that you aren't telling us...?
 
guibox said:
The Bible is full of references to the ultimate destruction of the enemies of God.

The glorious everlasting torment & the annihilation of most of God's creation fills me with worship. :-D

LINK

For from Him everything comes; through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends; Source, Guide and Goal of all that is, to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 
.

Actually, he looks very handsome in this pic, being that he got rid of that afro hair doo. :biggrin :lol:

Vic, Sorry to see you had a bad experience. I am serious, I do hope you overcame it...


Here's the pun: so you don't have to go through "torment" over it, "for ever and ever". :wink:



Now what was this thread about?

Oh Yeah, How handsom Vic looks.



.

Actually, he looks very handsome in this pic, being that he got rid of that afro hair doo. :biggrin :lol:

Vic, Sorry to see you had a bad experience. I am serious, I do hope you overcame it...


Here's the pun: so you don't have to go through "torment" over it, "for ever and ever". :wink:



Now what was this thread about?

Oh Yeah, How handsome Vic looks. :-D


.
 
Ok, I have been wrong all this time. I dunno where I got it from, but I had it in my mind all this time that Vic was short for Vickie or maybe Victoria. I was certain Vic was a she.
I guess that thought goes out the window now. From now on, when I address Vic, I will use Sir i nstead of Ma'am.

I was badly mistook.
 
I can tell that there are a few people who are part of a denomination, that teaches this stuff..by the way he/she explains away the issue of hell/sabbath/church ect.. It's the exact words I've heard hundreds of times, for over 20 years before.

Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.

I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.

I've heard this quote: "The best view one can have of God is from hell". That has a lot of emphasis, as we do not know the full results of what our sin does and unless we have forgiveness through Jesus, the end results will be eternally tragic. I'm quite sure that many people regret believeing the teaching of being annihilated when they find themselves in hell for forever. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about this.

It's so typical of SDA's to spread the idea that those who leave their denomination are bitter towards someone. They can't accept that people do study their way out of Adventism by reading the Bible alone, without any SDA propaganda influences.

Trying to convince everyone and yourself that you are not influenced by Ellen White's teachings and writings is hogwash. That's what the base of Adventism is built upon. Not the Bible, but her so-called visions. To deny this is a flat out lie!

I would like to add..that..I never said anyone who teaches annihilation is hellbound. I do say that it's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus described hell is described as fire, and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment, a place of deepest darkness, gloomy dungeons, etc. This is hardly annihilation! Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?

It's quite clear that hell is eternal.
 
I can tell that there are a few people who are part of a denomination, that teaches this stuff..by the way he/she explains away the issue of hell/sabbath/church ect.. It's the exact words I've heard hundreds of times, for over 20 years before.

Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.

I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.

I've heard this quote: "The best view one can have of God is from hell". That has a lot of emphasis, as we do not know the full results of what our sin does and unless we have forgiveness through Jesus, the end results will be eternally tragic. I'm quite sure that many people regret believeing the teaching of being annihilated when they find themselves in hell for forever. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about this.

It's so typical of SDA's to spread the idea that those who leave their denomination are bitter towards someone. They can't accept that people do study their way out of Adventism by reading the Bible alone, without any SDA propaganda influences.

Trying to convince everyone and yourself that you are not influenced by Ellen White's teachings and writings is hogwash. That's what the base of Adventism is built upon. Not the Bible, but her so-called visions. To deny this is a flat out lie!

I would like to add..that..I never said anyone who teaches annihilation is hellbound. I do say that it's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus described hell is described as fire, and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment, a place of deepest darkness, gloomy dungeons, etc. This is hardly annihilation! Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?

It's quite clear that hell is eternal.
 
Well hello Finelinen!
How are things in the Johnson household? I was trying to contact you over @GFT not long ago.

Guibox:
Yes, the truth is so simple when we let the bible explain itself and not superimpose our preconceived ideas onto the text, isn't it?

I agree. The truth is so simple. Most of the time I have spent discussing this subject with ETs, I have had to wade through all manner of human reasoning, fairy tales, fables and plain old Dark Age superstition.

For some reason, I have found very few ETs who are what I would call scholars. They start with a scripture, and dress it up with "stuff" that has nothing to do with anything. When you present them with a valid rebuttal, they start throwing more "stuff" at you. One of the most unnerving things that continually happens is the rapid response technique they use. Before you get a chance to answer the first response, they already have a second and third pile of "stuff" thrown at you. Like a monkey in a cage. And none of it has a thing to do with a scholarly approach to the scriptures.

Then, when all else fails, they accuse you of spreading a "false gospel." It wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that most of them are "parroting" what they have heard someone else say without ever taking the time to investigate whether what they were told was actually the truth. "T.D. Jakes never lied to me. He seems like a trustworthy person. I like him personally. I guess what be has to say must be the truth." "Bennie Hinn...must be the truth." "Pastor Flickinger...must be the truth." "My Sunday School teacher..." you get the idea. And they call it Bible Study.

"Polly want a cracker?"

But it is Ok now. I have quit trying to convince ETs of anything. They aren't listening to what you have to say anyway. If they were, they would run out of questions after a while. If they were listening to what you have to tell them, they would eventually come around.

Jesus had harsh words for the Pharisees of His day for clinging to their fables and their traditions of men. I wonder what He would have to say to an ET in this day?
 
Servant_2000 said:
Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.

I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.

I've heard this quote: "The best view one can have of God is from hell". That has a lot of emphasis, as we do not know the full results of what our sin does and unless we have forgiveness through Jesus, the end results will be eternally tragic. I'm quite sure that many people regret believeing the teaching of being annihilated when they find themselves in hell for forever. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about this.

It's so typical of SDA's to spread the idea that those who leave their denomination are bitter towards someone. They can't accept that people do study their way out of Adventism by reading the Bible alone, without any SDA propaganda influences.

Trying to convince everyone and yourself that you are not influenced by Ellen White's teachings and writings is hogwash. That's what the base of Adventism is built upon. Not the Bible, but her so-called visions. To deny this is a flat out lie!

I would like to add..that..I never said anyone who teaches annihilation is hellbound. I do say that it's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus described hell is described as fire, and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment, a place of deepest darkness, gloomy dungeons, etc. This is hardly annihilation! Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?

It's quite clear that hell is eternal.

:roll: Oh good grief! Get off your anti-SDA kick and stick with the facts, servant. How sad!
 
Servant_2000 said:
Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.
....I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.

....Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?

:roll: EGW never formulated the doctrine! It is not an SDA monopoly belief! Like all of our scholars, many from different denominations have come to the same conclusion from studying the scripture. Eternal torment has been denied in some form or another throughout the ages.

Get a grip and get off your high horse. It is sad and boring and you don't lend yourself with any credibility.
 
Servant_2000 said:
I can tell that there are a few people who are part of a denomination, that teaches this stuff..by the way he/she explains away the issue of hell/sabbath/church ect.. It's the exact words I've heard hundreds of times, for over 20 years before.

Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.

I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.

I've heard this quote: "The best view one can have of God is from hell". That has a lot of emphasis, as we do not know the full results of what our sin does and unless we have forgiveness through Jesus, the end results will be eternally tragic. I'm quite sure that many people regret believeing the teaching of being annihilated when they find themselves in hell for forever. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about this.

It's so typical of SDA's to spread the idea that those who leave their denomination are bitter towards someone. They can't accept that people do study their way out of Adventism by reading the Bible alone, without any SDA propaganda influences.

Trying to convince everyone and yourself that you are not influenced by Ellen White's teachings and writings is hogwash. That's what the base of Adventism is built upon. Not the Bible, but her so-called visions. To deny this is a flat out lie!

I would like to add..that..I never said anyone who teaches annihilation is hellbound. I do say that it's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus described hell is described as fire, and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment, a place of deepest darkness, gloomy dungeons, etc. This is hardly annihilation! Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?

It's quite clear that hell is eternal.


guibox said:
Oh good grief! Get off your anti-SDA kick and stick with the facts, servant. How sad!

guibox,
Any scriptures that are posted as facts are rejected by those of you who believe in annihilation. The stale mate continues. There is a stubborn spirit that is presiding.
Do you want to continue to bang heads like some mountain rams in battle for superiority of territory and mate?

Each one believes they are speaking truth... so what more do you want?


============================



Thanks you Servant_2000, Very well put. :biggrin

I wasn't sure who I was dealing with here, those that are so adamant in their argument for annihilation and don't believe in a torment that lasts for ever and ever. Ur or SDA... I think it is a combination of both? :roll: This debate is about as stale mate as the other topics they bring to this board full of those of us they call fundamentalists and a bunch of other names. I see why many of the older members stay out of it once they have placed a couple of posts the prove contrary to what the annihilation theorists post. Yep, State Mate. this thread and the other onces similar in subject. There are definitely opposites here.


Thank you Servant_2000 :biggrin

.
[/i]
 
Annihilation?

Heidi, I have been having the same problemwhen just trying to post to this thread.

It says 'cannot debug' and gives a whole bunch of words.

I don't know if this will post.

Bick
 
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