Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[faithtransforms]

LOL,

I brought this scripture up on another thread but I would like someone to tell me that it is not saying what it is saying:

2 THESS 1:5-8 NKJV:

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Believe you me, I would MUCH RATHER BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!! I don't want to go through the tribulation more than anyone else does! But it is scriptures like the one above that convinced me we will go through the trib. Can you tell me this scripture is not saying what it is saying?

For you KJV only's, it says it this way:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer :
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Je/sus Christ

Well, it's still saying the same thing!

 

[Mysteryman]

LOL,

I brought this scripture up on another thread but I would like someone to tell me that it is not saying what it is saying:

2 THESS 1:5-8 NKJV:

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Believe you me, I would MUCH RATHER BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!! I don't want to go through the tribulation more than anyone else does! But it is scriptures like the one above that convinced me we will go through the trib. Can you tell me this scripture is not saying what it is saying?

For you KJV only's, it says it this way:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer :
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Je/sus Christ

Well, it's still saying the same thing!

Hi

I have an extra bus ticket. Would you like it, its free.

 

[faithtransforms]

Hi

I have an extra bus ticket. Would you like it, its free.

Uhhh, YEAH!!!

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi

I have an extra bus ticket. Would you like it, its free.

Uhhh, YEAH!!!

Hi

Okay, the only thing you have to do is believe in I Thess 1:10.

The tribulation to come is the wrath of/from God


Now, as far as II Thess. 1:5 - 8 , what you need to do is also read verse 4 and verse 9 and 10 -- Context

Also, read I Thess. 5:9 and the fact that when Christ comes back, he is coming back with all his saints - I Thess. 3:13.

We must go up first, before we can come back with Christ. This is the gathering up of the saints in I Thess. 4:13 - 18

 

[Mike]

Interesting thread. I can see this one getting in to triple digits soon.

I have always been amillennial. I know this will draw sharp criticism from some here to camp out in Revelation, but I really don't read that book a lot. People point to this or that and call it a sign of the rapture, and I just can't get worked up about it. My belief is where I have read that Jesus will return a final time, and the show is over. Every eye will see, every ear will hear. We will all stand accountable for our faith in the Gospel and our response to it. Salvation by faith alone, but our lives reflect a faithful response to His love.

So, there is a lot of time spent anguishing over signs of the trib. I don't understand why Christians get worked up about signs of end times when this only means that we're that much closer to living in the presence of God. While I don't agree with this, I don't disparage people who do. I believe, in the end, it doesn't change the Gospel that we believe or how we should live with that faith.

 

[archangel_300]

Interesting thread. I can see this one getting in to triple digits soon.

I have always been amillennial. I know this will draw sharp criticism from some here to camp out in Revelation, but I really don't read that book a lot. People point to this or that and call it a sign of the rapture, and I just can't get worked up about it. My belief is where I have read that Jesus will return a final time, and the show is over. Every eye will see, every ear will hear. We will all stand accountable for our faith in the Gospel and our response to it. Salvation by faith alone, but our lives reflect a faithful response to His love.

So, there is a lot of time spent anguishing over signs of the trib. I don't understand why Christians get worked up about signs of end times when this only means that we're that much closer to living in the presence of God. While I don't agree with this, I don't disparage people who do. I believe, in the end, it doesn't change the Gospel that we believe or how we should live with that faith.

I'm also amillennial as well.
I have also read and studied the book of Revelation pretty well.

I like studying the signs of the times because it's exciting.
Soon we'll be meeting God and our salvation will be complete with new glorified bodies.
Can't wait until this body of death is done with.


FAITH, you are right on with your post.
There are plenty of other passages that indicate the church will go through the tribulation period.
Not only that but I believe from reading the scriptures that the church is the final tribuation.

 

[frying-pan-addict]

I am staunchly Millenial and pre-trib.

Romans 5:9--> Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

1 Thess 5:9-11"God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that , whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another" ---> I would argue Paul has the rapture in mind when he said this

Most posttribulationsists interpret this to be the final stated of the wicked, the lake of fire, etc. However the context is that of the Rapture.

What we need to get down into is that the word "tribulation" in the Bible can have two different meanings. It can referr to distress, persecution, hard times, pressure, anguish, etc. This is sure to happen as Christians serve God in a world that rejects Christ. However, the judgements of the Great Tribulation are not in the same class. They are God's wrath.

Furthermore, God's wrath is NEVER against his children.


In conclusion the pre-trib view fits in best with the future hope that the Bible presents. In 1 Thess 1:10 we are told to wait for God's son from heaven, not for the Great Tribulation or Antichrist. I believe in the imminence of Jesus' return as that kind of mentality is contained throughout the New Testament.

 

[archangel_300]

I am staunchly Millenial and pre-trib.

Romans 5:9--> Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

1 Thess 5:9-11"God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that , whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another" ---> I would argue Paul has the rapture in mind when he said this

Most posttribulationsists interpret this to be the final stated of the wicked, the lake of fire, etc. However the context is that of the Rapture.

What we need to get down into is that the word "tribulation" in the Bible can have two different meanings. It can referr to distress, persecution, hard times, pressure, anguish, etc. This is sure to happen as Christians serve God in a world that rejects Christ. However, the judgements of the Great Tribulation are not in the same class. They are God's wrath.

Furthermore, God's wrath is NEVER against his children.


In conclusion the pre-trib view fits in best with the future hope that the Bible presents. In 1 Thess 1:10 we are told to wait for God's son from heaven, not for the Great Tribulation or Antichrist. I believe in the imminence of Jesus' return as that kind of mentality is contained throughout the New Testament.

Alright so how do you deal with these verses?

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Mysteryman]

Christians should keep their eyes on the -"Hope"

Everyone knows that the tribulation of God is coming, and is the wrath of/from God.

Colossians 1:5 - "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" < Which means that we should see more about the hope throughout the seven church epistles. But before we do, we can read more about the hope here in Colossians. Colossians 1:27 - "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles ; which is Christ in you the hope of glory". Christians are the glory of God, not for the wrath of God, which is the tribulation.

In Colossians 3:1 - "If you be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" Now verse 2 - "Set your affection on the things above, not on the things on the earth" < Verse two is telling us not to focus on such things as the tribulation of God, which will come upon this earth. We are to set our affections on the things above, which is the hope of our calling.

Romans 5:3 and 4 and 5 -- "And not only so, but we glory in tribulation (the tribulation of this world)also : knowing that in tribulations worketh patience ; " "And patience, experience; and experience, hope" -- "And hope maketh not ashamed ; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us" << The love of God is in us, which allows us to shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. The tribulation of God is not the love of God shed abroad, but his wrath. God is all love, and so is his wrath upon those who worketh iniquity. This is why we are not appointed unto his wrath, because we do not work iniquity, but have the love of God in our hearts.

I Thess. 5:8 and 9 - "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love ; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation " (Saved from the wrath to come) -- "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (Saved from the wrath to come) by our Lord Jesus Christ"

 

[watchman F]

LOL,

I brought this scripture up on another thread but I would like someone to tell me that it is not saying what it is saying:

2 THESS 1:5-8 NKJV:

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Believe you me, I would MUCH RATHER BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!! I don't want to go through the tribulation more than anyone else does! But it is scriptures like the one above that convinced me we will go through the trib. Can you tell me this scripture is not saying what it is saying?

For you KJV only's, it says it this way:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer :
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Je/sus Christ

Well, it's still saying the same thing!

Your right ft, this scripture is one of many passages of scripture that proves undeniably that we will indeed go through the Tribulation. I am glad you found this truth out now by believing the bible than having to find out by being here when the Tribulation has begun.

 

[watchman F]

Christians should keep their eyes on the -"Hope"

Everyone knows that the tribulation of God is coming, and is the wrath of/from God.

Colossians 1:5 - "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" < Which means that we should see more about the hope throughout the seven church epistles. But before we do, we can read more about the hope here in Colossians. Colossians 1:27 - "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles ; which is Christ in you the hope of glory". Christians are the glory of God, not for the wrath of God, which is the tribulation.

In Colossians 3:1 - "If you be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" Now verse 2 - "Set your affection on the things above, not on the things on the earth" < Verse two is telling us not to focus on such things as the tribulation of God, which will come upon this earth. We are to set our affections on the things above, which is the hope of our calling.

Romans 5:3 and 4 and 5 -- "And not only so, but we glory in tribulation (the tribulation of this world)also : knowing that in tribulations worketh patience ; " "And patience, experience; and experience, hope" -- "And hope maketh not ashamed ; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us" << The love of God is in us, which allows us to shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. The tribulation of God is not the love of God shed abroad, but his wrath. God is all love, and so is his wrath upon those who worketh iniquity. This is why we are not appointed unto his wrath, because we do not work iniquity, but have the love of God in our hearts.

I Thess. 5:8 and 9 - "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love ; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation " (Saved from the wrath to come) -- "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (Saved from the wrath to come) by our Lord Jesus Christ"

Our hope is the resurrection, and the wrath will be poured out upon the wicked not the righteous. The fact still remains that scripture is clear we will be here until the post trib return of Christ.

 

[watchman F]

I am staunchly Millenial and pre-trib.

Romans 5:9--> Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

1 Thess 5:9-11"God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that , whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another" ---> I would argue Paul has the rapture in mind when he said this

Most posttribulationsists interpret this to be the final stated of the wicked, the lake of fire, etc. However the context is that of the Rapture.

What we need to get down into is that the word "tribulation" in the Bible can have two different meanings. It can referr to distress, persecution, hard times, pressure, anguish, etc. This is sure to happen as Christians serve God in a world that rejects Christ. However, the judgements of the Great Tribulation are not in the same class. They are God's wrath.

Furthermore, God's wrath is NEVER against his children.


In conclusion the pre-trib view fits in best with the future hope that the Bible presents. In 1 Thess 1:10 we are told to wait for God's son from heaven, not for the Great Tribulation or Antichrist. I believe in the imminence of Jesus' return as that kind of mentality is contained throughout the New Testament.

You error comes from the escapism attitude the 19th and 20th century church has beat into the mind of their followers. The fact is the wrath is not the tribulation. The wrath follows the Tribulation. The judgments poured out by God during the Trib will not touch the believer but are poured out upon the unbelievers only

 

[faithtransforms]

Interesting thread. I can see this one getting in to triple digits soon.

I have always been amillennial. I know this will draw sharp criticism from some here to camp out in Revelation, but I really don't read that book a lot. People point to this or that and call it a sign of the rapture, and I just can't get worked up about it. My belief is where I have read that Jesus will return a final time, and the show is over. Every eye will see, every ear will hear. We will all stand accountable for our faith in the Gospel and our response to it. Salvation by faith alone, but our lives reflect a faithful response to His love.

So, there is a lot of time spent anguishing over signs of the trib. I don't understand why Christians get worked up about signs of end times when this only means that we're that much closer to living in the presence of God. While I don't agree with this, I don't disparage people who do. I believe, in the end, it doesn't change the Gospel that we believe or how we should live with that faith.

I'm also amillennial as well.
I have also read and studied the book of Revelation pretty well.

I like studying the signs of the times because it's exciting.
Soon we'll be meeting God and our salvation will be complete with new glorified bodies.
Can't wait until this body of death is done with.


FAITH, you are right on with your post.
There are plenty of other passages that indicate the church will go through the tribulation period.
Not only that but I believe from reading the scriptures that the church is the final tribuation.

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

 

[faithtransforms]

LOL,

I brought this scripture up on another thread but I would like someone to tell me that it is not saying what it is saying:

2 THESS 1:5-8 NKJV:

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Believe you me, I would MUCH RATHER BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!! I don't want to go through the tribulation more than anyone else does! But it is scriptures like the one above that convinced me we will go through the trib. Can you tell me this scripture is not saying what it is saying?

For you KJV only's, it says it this way:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer :
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Je/sus Christ

Well, it's still saying the same thing!

Your right ft, this scripture is one of many passages of scripture that proves undeniably that we will indeed go through the Tribulation. I am glad you found this truth out now by believing the bible than having to find out by being here when the Tribulation has begun.

Yeah, I was fed and ate the pre-trib scenario for years. But the more times I read the NT, the more I realized the evidence is questionable. Then I found this scripture and I cannot see how anyone can deny that it says exactly what it says. He will be glorified in His saints because when we see Him, we shall be like Him. Everyone says, but the saints are coming back with Him...hello? HOW MANY saints have died already that can come back with Him while there are still those of us on earth?

I know God's wrath is not for us, I do believe we will be supernaturally protected during the trib. But many of us will lose our lives and we have to be prepared for that because this could be the generation. I'm not fully post trib yet, because Jesus says no one knows the time or the hour and yet Revelation tells us exactly the timing of His 2nd coming (not the dates but anyone alive at the time will be able to see the pattern of events) , so again I am confused by that.

 

[Mike]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Can I answer? In amillenialism, I believe there is tribulation, but there isn't a literal 1000 year reign. Revelation 20 is figurative in it's 1000 year term. The tribulation has been occurring since the time of Christ. Satan has been bound to a certain extent since that time. He has influence over the world, but not uninhibited authority. There will be signs of Christ's return has Jesus explained, but there won't be an "invisible" returning of Christ. He will return 1 final time when the rapture will occur and believers will be caught up with Him.

Don't confuse it with post-millenialism. We don't want to be associated with "those" people. :rolling

kidding!

 

[Mike]

I know God's wrath is not for us, I do believe we will be supernaturally protected during the trib. But many of us will lose our lives and we have to be prepared for that because this could be the generation.

Now you're sounding like a pre-trib believer again

 

[faithtransforms]

I know God's wrath is not for us, I do believe we will be supernaturally protected during the trib. But many of us will lose our lives and we have to be prepared for that because this could be the generation.

Now you're sounding like a pre-trib believer again

If you read my last post it is clear I'm still a little on the fence. Mainly b/c Jesus said we would not know the time or the hour, yet Revelation lays it all out. But still, the scriptures in this OP point strongly toward post-trib.

 

[faithtransforms]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Can I answer? In amillenialism, I believe there is tribulation, but there isn't a literal 1000 year reign. Revelation 20 is figurative in it's 1000 year term. The tribulation has been occurring since the time of Christ. Satan has been bound to a certain extent since that time. He has influence over the world, but not uninhibited authority. There will be signs of Christ's return has Jesus explained, but there won't be an "invisible" returning of Christ. He will return 1 final time when the rapture will occur and believers will be caught up with Him.

Don't confuse it with post-millenialism. We don't want to be associated with "those" people. :rolling

kidding!

Oh, ok. Well, when the bible says Christ will reign for 1000 years on the throne of David from Jerusalem, I think its a mistake to take that metaphorically. Where do you get the idea that it is figurative? Is there some scripture you can point to that supports that? I think it is a mistake to interpret ANYTHING in the bible metaphorically if it is even remotely possible that it could really happen. You think satan has been bound? :rolling Have you taken a look around this world? Paul calls him the god of this world for a reason. And does that also mean you do not believe New Jerusalem will descend from the Heavens and that God will make His abode with us on earth?

 

[watchman F]

I know God's wrath is not for us, I do believe we will be supernaturally protected during the trib. But many of us will lose our lives and we have to be prepared for that because this could be the generation.

Now you're sounding like a pre-trib believer again

If you read my last post it is clear I'm still a little on the fence. Mainly b/c Jesus said we would not know the time or the hour, yet Revelation lays it all out. But still, the scriptures in this OP point strongly toward post-trib.

Well let me help you off the fence. When Jesus said nobody knew the day or hour He was speaking of the 2nd coming not the rapture, and only verses before He clearly stated that His return is after the Tribulation. So the fact that it is after the Trib apparently has no baring on the fact that no one knows the day or hour.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus makes two very clear statements in this passage.
#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation.
#2 No one knows the day or hour of his 2nd coming.

The fact of either of these statement cannot rule out the truth of the other. They are both equally true.

Let me take you one step further to the timing of the rapture.
We know via Matthew 24 that the coming of Christ is after the Tribulation and 1st Thess 4:15-17 place the rapture at His coming.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1+2=3 if the coming of the Lord is after the Trib, and the rapture is at His coming that means the rapture itself must be after the Tribulation.

 

[watchman F]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Can I answer? In amillenialism, I believe there is tribulation, but there isn't a literal 1000 year reign. Revelation 20 is figurative in it's 1000 year term. The tribulation has been occurring since the time of Christ. Satan has been bound to a certain extent since that time. He has influence over the world, but not uninhibited authority. There will be signs of Christ's return has Jesus explained, but there won't be an "invisible" returning of Christ. He will return 1 final time when the rapture will occur and believers will be caught up with Him.

Don't confuse it with post-millenialism. We don't want to be associated with "those" people. :rolling

kidding!

Oh, ok. Well, when the bible says Christ will reign for 1000 years on the throne of David from Jerusalem, I think its a mistake to take that metaphorically. Where do you get the idea that it is figurative? Is there some scripture you can point to that supports that? I think it is a mistake to interpret ANYTHING in the bible metaphorically if it is even remotely possible that it could really happen. You think satan has been bound? :rolling Have you taken a look around this world? Paul calls him the god of this world for a reason. And does that also mean you do not believe New Jerusalem will descend from the Heavens and that God will make His abode with us on earth?

Faithtransforms you are doing great. Keep believing the bible, rather than the doctrines of men. Amillennialist spiritualize the literal word of God. In a since they are calling God a liar. However I would fight one battle at a time if I were you, and ignore the amillennialist in this thread. Let them start a thread of their own or start a separate thread to combat the lie of amillennialism. It is my understanding that this thread is to debate the lie of the pretrib rapture not the lie of amilllennialism.