I thought that our salvation wasn't based on works but yet (although we should always forgive others) Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven ourselves. So what does that verse really mean then? 
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Hold On For A Second I'm Confused
- Thread starter HeIsRisen2018
- Start date
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
It's a fair statement Jesus made. If you don't forgive others then why should you be forgiven. There is no excuse.
So then does that mean that if somebody who is truly born again holds a grudge against somebody they won't go to Heaven? Then again, if they were truly born again then that wouldn't even be an issue. Oh yes and JohnDB, can you please move this topic to Bible Study because now that I think of it, it would probably be more appropriate there.
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
They wouldn't have that issue to start.
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That's what I just pointed out and thanks John for moving it I apologize. I just woke up a little while ago from my nap and I wasn't thinking clearly. Otherwise I would have posted it here to begin with since its purpose is discussing scripture.
Nathan12
Member
The verse means what it says but it is not about salvation. It is about ongoing fellowship with God and Christ. What is commonly known as the Lord's Prayer makes this clear:
And forgive us our [sin] debts, as we forgive our debtors [those who have sinned against us]. Mt 6:12.
stovebolts
Member
Good question!I thought that our salvation wasn't based on works but yet (although we should always forgive others) Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven ourselves. So what does that verse really mean then?
We have to understand that Jesus started his sermon in chapter 5 and I believe his point on forgiveness really points to what he said earlier when he taught us to pray, "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". Ponder that for a few moments. Are we doing our will, or Gods will on earth?
If we fast forward to Matthew 18:18, the context is how to reconcile our differences when one in Christ sins against another in Christ. Jesus says,
Matthew 18:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
I believe this is talking about forgiveness. A wiser man than I put it to me this way. We might as well learn to forgive now because if we don't, well have to learn how come judgment day.
In other words, if we don't deal with our issues now, we can't escape them later. We can either do Gods will now, or well end up doing Gods will when we get to heaven.
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So,.. if I understand this right you're saying the truly saved will still go to Heaven even if they were still holding a grudge with somebody before they died, but before they can truly enter they must forgive.
This is one area where I think the Christian churches today fail the sheep. Works and belief go hand-in-hand. Too often our churches today teach that we just say a few magic words and whalla! we're saved and then we can go on living in the flesh as we have always done.
Okay, I know the churches don't specifically teach that last part but I believe they fail to express the relationship between our faith and our works and this is precisely what the books of James and Hebrews speak about. It's easier and more uplifting to just tell someone they are saved and stop there because to have to also tell them that they have a duty and a privilege to live a live worthy of that calling...well....that is too discouraging because it means one must rethink his/her priorities.
Okay, I know the churches don't specifically teach that last part but I believe they fail to express the relationship between our faith and our works and this is precisely what the books of James and Hebrews speak about. It's easier and more uplifting to just tell someone they are saved and stop there because to have to also tell them that they have a duty and a privilege to live a live worthy of that calling...well....that is too discouraging because it means one must rethink his/her priorities.
I question the idea that we will get a "second chance" to redeem ourselves at the day of judgment. In Matthew 25:31-46 it doesn't talk about second chances.
stovebolts
Member
Your missing the point dear Sister, but don't feel left out, most miss the point too.
We are currently living in the Kingdom of God and Jesus is King without question. We're not talking about the destination, we are talking about our duty as members of Gods Kingdom, here, now in Gods present Kingdom.
Our Job is to do Gods will, and by doing His will we enter into His Kingdom, here, now. It's not a kingdom of this world where there is worry, hatred, strife, lies, and deceit. It's a Kingdom where peace and harmony reign and we have the choice to live into the Gods Kingdom or live in this world, here, now.
When we hold grudges and fail to forgive, we don't release that person from their sin. Instead, we bind that sin upon them and by doing so, create division where unity should be. There is no harmony, no peace where strife and division dwell so as long as we hold grudges and we don't forgive those who sinned against us, we cannot enter into Gods present kingdom where rest and harmony are found. Yes, I am talking about spiritual and emotional matters because what we do is often based on what we know and these result in what we feel.
If we fail to forgive and we bind those sins upon others, there will be a day of reckoning when we come before the Lord and the matter will be settled by God, and we will be held accountable for our actions. However, if we forgive, then the transgressor will not be held accountable on the day of the Lord because he has been loosened from the offense. This is just a fancy way to say the matter has already been resolved, so it never makes it in front of our judge.
Whoa! Hold on there for a second! I'm not saying that works don't reflect the person who's saved, I just meant they don't earn you your salvation. Which means in fact what was already posted above, that for the person who is truly saved this isn't even an issue to begin with.
So then are you pretty much saying the same thing I just said because it still seems like a contradiction here.
Jesus died for our sins and John 3:16 says that whoever shall believe in Him shall be saved. It doesn't say anything about only those who forgive and love one another and believe in Him shall be saved.. although it is still a very important thing to do as you pointed out because it is doing the will of God, but it doesn't say in that verse that's what is needed to get to Heaven.
Not everything posted is posted about you. Reread what I wrote and you'll see who it is I'm talking about.
I have a couple questions for you.
- How do you know you are "truly" saved?
- If you are truly saved, would you ever not forgive someone?
- If you are truly saved, where would your heart be? In other words, if you are truly saved would you even have to ask this question about forgiveness?
- As you already pointed out, Jesus said that if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Can an unforgiven person enter into heaven?
In the same way I don't believe a relationship with God works off a check-off list either any more than a relationship with another person can work that way. If we love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength we will live according to that love. We will treat each other with kindness, dignity, care, and love no matter who they are because we are all created in the image of God. We will have an attitude of forgiveness because God has forgiven us.
Remember the parable of the unforgiving servant? It is found in Matthew 18:21-35. That parable speaks about the relationship we have with God. When we go to God and ask Him to forgive us, we are then bound by that forgiveness to do likewise with others. If we don't we will face the consequences and what does the parable say? "His master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him." vs 34 NKJV
You make some valid points here but the reason that I was asking this question is because even though I personally never hold grudges, just because I believe that I am truly saved doesn't by any means mean that I believe I am perfect because I know for a fact that I'm not. In fact, none of us are perfect except for the good Lord and I find it really hard to believe that somebody who is truly saved will be held accountable because they didn't forgive so and so for something like stealing their wallet before they died because they either forgot, didn't have the chance to, or it is just one of those things that makes them a sinful human being.
stovebolts
Member
Whoa! Hold on there for a second! I'm not saying that works don't reflect the person who's saved, I just meant they don't earn you your salvation. Which means in fact what was already posted above, that for the person who is truly saved this isn't even an issue to begin with.
So then are you pretty much saying the same thing I just said because it still seems like a contradiction here.
It doesn't say anything about only those who forgive and love one another and believe in Him shall be saved.. although it is still a very important thing to do as you pointed out because it is doing the will of God, but it doesn't say in that verse that's what is needed to get to Heaven.
There are responsibilities that come with being saved.
Being saved does not mean we are perfect.
Being saved is not all about what God has done for us.
Being saved is also about living the way God designed us to live.
Being saved is also about what we can do for others.
Because we wrestle with our flesh, we sin. God forgives us of that sin, but we also play a part in mending wounds. If we hold grudges on earth, we will hold grudges in heaven.
Grudges cause disharmony and strife. Heaven will be a place with harmony and peace. As a result, the grudges we could not let go of on earth need to be dealt with so full reconciliation can occur when we get to heaven.
Things in the world to come don't magically happen. Poof, Jesus forgives me for holding a grudge, so i don't have to care about what that guy thinks of me because he did me wrong... It doesn't work that way.
All the grudges we hold will be dealt with by God himself. We have a choice, forgive one another now, or go before God and ask for forgiveness....
So then one way or the other when we forgive and then ask God for forgiveness He will still forgive us but it has to be either dealt with here or in Heaven because somebody who has a grudge in their heart cannot enter but,.. it doesn't mean that they won't get a second chance to if they truly know Christ as their Lord and Savior and they don't automatically go to Hell. Is that what you're saying then?