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[_ Old Earth _] How are mutations that remain selected?

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Seriously! This is one question I have never found a satisfactory explanation for. By natural selection? But how does the cell accomplish this? If not by natural selection then are they acquired? But they are inheritable???? We know DNA repair processes weed most of them out so are those that remain just a happy little accident?
What processes, mechanisms, enzymes, etc., are involved in allowing those that stay?

This is not meant to be a number of questions but rather I am looking for an explanation of how they remian as opposed to others and whether it is just a random event (but then how does it effect the sex cells)
 
Thanks But I have seen a number of articles and videos describing inheritance of mutations that already exist, how some form in meiosis and mitosis, and environmental acquisition already. See how you said (thinking you were clarifying so I do appreciate it) "the cell is a product of selected mutations"? How were these selected, cellularly speaking? They certainly did not exist before the cell itself!
 
As much as I like to use Khan academy to give basic instruction to my grandchildren, this video just explains THAT they are inherited and how inheritance works (which I already know), but not HOW they come about.

How this already extant mutation spreads via inheritance has nothing to do with the question I asked which was what is involved in their initial formation? HOW do they form and why do these remain as opposed to others?
 
Thanks But I have seen a number of articles and videos describing inheritance of mutations that already exist, how some form in meiosis and mitosis, and environmental acquisition already. See how you said (thinking you were clarifying so I do appreciate it) "the cell is a product of selected mutations"? How were these selected, cellularly speaking? They certainly did not exist before the cell itself!
Actually it does exist before the cells because its the DNA that tells how you cells form.

This page explains the different types of mutations.
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/mutationsanddisorders/possiblemutations
 
I have studied this question intensively all my life and through various readings and investigations have come to what I believe IS the ONLY answer that we can reasonably and rationally conclude:

How are mutations that remain selected?

Eeny-meeny.jpg
 
Actually it does exist before the cells because its the DNA that tells how you cells form.

This page explains the different types of mutations.
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/mutationsanddisorders/possiblemutations

I understand the different types of mutations and those alleged to be that may not be (many classified as Indels). This article ALSO does not address this question.

So it appears YOU are saying that these mutations exist BEFORE cells..."BECAUSE' the DNA determines the cell that forms. Is either of these understandings correctly representing YOUR view?

If so and these mutations existed before the cell that contains them, where did they originate? HOW did they originate and why were they not corrected (an accident perhaps? Natural selection perhaps? Then How?)?

Can you show an example of when they were there before a cell and then a cell formed as a result? And where would they have been before in a cell?

As far as the second part wonder why if "DNA determines the cell that forms" why there is no free floating DNA found in nature outside of that which we find already in a cellular environment? This premise of your's implies that there was DNA and THEN a cell formed as a result but this is not possible without all the other systems and enzymes already functional and in place.
 
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If so and these mutations existed before the cell that contains them, where did they originate?
There may have been a misunderstanding
I was referring to the fact that cells exist as a product of DNA. The mutation that take place in DNA effect cells.

how did they originate and why were they not corrected (an accident perhaps? Natural selection perhaps? Then How?)?
Do you have any specific mutation you want to talk about?

Can you show an example of when they were there before a cell and then a cell formed as a result? And where would they have been before in a cell?
Since we are talking about hypothetical mutations, do you want to define them?

As far as the second part wonder why if "DNA determines the cell that forms" why there is no free floating DNA found in nature outside of that which we find already in a cellular environment?
currwnt DNA has evolvedbso we wouldnt find that specifically outise of cells. What has been seen is protein strands that make up DNA naturally.



This premise of your's implies that there was DNA and THEN a cell formed as a result but this is not possible without all the other systems and enzymes already functional and in place.
The current DNA strand could not exist without a cell. Abiogenesis explains the origins of DNA and RNA that formed the first proto cells.
 
There may have been a misunderstanding
I was referring to the fact that cells exist as a product of DNA. The mutation that take place in DNA effect cells.

Do you have any specific mutation you want to talk about?

Since we are talking about hypothetical mutations, do you want to define them?

currwnt DNA has evolvedbso we wouldnt find that specifically outise of cells. What has been seen is protein strands that make up DNA naturally.

The current DNA strand could not exist without a cell. Abiogenesis explains the origins of DNA and RNA that formed the first proto cells.

Do you have any specific mutation you want to talk about?

No! I know that they can occur in a number of ways (for example, a copying error in an offspring's cell), I was wondering if anyone had more definite info on chemicals (such as enzymes or something other) involved that effect the DNA in ignoring or using one and re-writing or correcting others.

The consensus opinion I have received here and elsewhere appears to be no its just random and then USUALLY those that do not harm the organism are passed on. But since most do harm or are neutral this seems like the actual data is in disputer with the explanation so I thought to inquire.
 
Do you have any specific mutation you want to talk about?

No! I know that they can occur in a number of ways (for example, a copying error in an offspring's cell), I was wondering if anyone had more definite info on chemicals (such as enzymes or something other) involved that effect the DNA in ignoring or using one and re-writing or correcting others.

The consensus opinion I have received here and elsewhere appears to be no its just random and then USUALLY those that do not harm the organism are passed on. But since most do harm or are neutral this seems like the actual data is in disputer with the explanation so I thought to inquire.

Brother Paul, The answer I've been looking for is what is the probability of a second random mutation occurring effecting the first mutation and changing that trait slightly so it enhances the benefit of the organism.
When one takes all the many steps requied to turn a fish fin into a leg or evole away from a gill and into a lung evolutions seems pretty unlikely to me.
 
Seriously! This is one question I have never found a satisfactory explanation for. By natural selection? But how does the cell accomplish this?

It doesn't. Organisms are the target of selection, not cells. Let's suppose a few people in a population have a mutation that say makes them effectively immune to bubonic plague. And let's suppose bubonic plague occurs in that population. Those with that mutation will tend to survive, while those without will tend to die.

In succeeding generations, that mutation would be more common than before, because of natural selection. The organisms lacking the mutation were much more likely to die before leaving offspring, than those with it. And so natural selection increased the allele's frequency in the population.

If not by natural selection then are they acquired?

In clever experiments, Luria and Delbruck demonstrated that mutations do not appear as needed, but in fact arrive randomly.

But they are inheritable????

Yes.

We know DNA repair processes weed most of them out so are those that remain just a happy little accident?

Yep. This explains punctuated equilibrium. If a population is well-fitted to the environment, natural selection will actually greatly reduce evolution, since the vast majority of mutations that do anything at all, will be harmful. Hence stasis, until the environment changes. And keep in mind, most mutations don't do much of anything to fitness.

What processes, mechanisms, enzymes, etc., are involved in allowing those that stay?

Error-correcting processes in the cell are not perfect. Indeed, if they ever became so, the population would be doomed in geological time. Variation is what allows populations to survive new challenges. The rate of errors in most populations turns out to be pretty close to the optimal level for survival.

This is not meant to be a number of questions but rather I am looking for an explanation of how they remian as opposed to others and whether it is just a random event (but then how does it effect the sex cells)

The only ones that get passed on are in the sex cells. Somatic mutations are not passed on, except in the case of epigenetic effects, which apparently don't last more than a generation or two.
 
Brother Paul, The answer I've been looking for is what is the probability of a second random mutation occurring effecting the first mutation and changing that trait slightly so it enhances the benefit of the organism.

This is why we aren't going to evolve a second set of hands, even though that would certainly be useful. Each step in such evolution has to be of some benefit.

When one takes all the many steps requied to turn a fish fin into a leg

That's happened several times. The key is that each time, there was a benefit. For example, in our line, the fins were useful for pushing along on the bottom of shallow ponds, got more efficient over time, so that legs evolved before there were land animals. There are fish in the Sargasso sea that have fins capable of grasping seaweed, and mudskippers have fins that serve as legs, allowing them to even climb trees.

or evole away from a gill and into a lung evolutions seems pretty unlikely to me.

Gills never became lungs. And lungs evolved in fish long before any of them came on land. Ever watch a goldfish in a small bowl, gulp air? The air is being absorbed by the gullet. In some fish, the surface area is enlarged by pockets that allow more absorbtion. Some fish actually have lungs.

But for the reason mentioned above, gills did not become lungs.
 
This is why we aren't going to evolve a second set of hands, even though that would certainly be useful. Each step in such evolution has to be of some benefit.

Besides that...it would be impossible.

That's happened several times. The key is that each time, there was a benefit. For example, in our line, the fins were useful for pushing along on the bottom of shallow ponds, got more efficient over time, so that legs evolved before there were land animals. There are fish in the Sargasso sea that have fins capable of grasping seaweed, and mudskippers have fins that serve as legs, allowing them to even climb trees.

You act as if there are millions upon millions of enificial mutations occurring in each person...an in the "evolving fish" they all were directed at the fin. All you've done here was present a theory. Then assumed certain fish such as the mudskipper evolved using homology...which is easily defeated with the common body parts created by a commmon creator would be expected to be similar.

Gills never became lungs. And lungs evolved in fish long before any of them came on land. Ever watch a goldfish in a small bowl, gulp air? The air is being absorbed by the gullet. In some fish, the surface area is enlarged by pockets that allow more absorbtion. Some fish actually have lungs.

But for the reason mentioned above, gills did not become lungs.

A gulping goldfish demonstrates evolutionism? Whatever.
 
Barbarian observes:
This is why we aren't going to evolve a second set of hands, even though that would certainly be useful. Each step in such evolution has to be of some benefit.

Besides that...it would be impossible.

It's impossible, because the intermediate steps are not adaptive. As you see in these examples, such things can only happen where incremental changes are also adaptive.

Barbarian observes:
That's happened several times. The key is that each time, there was a benefit. For example, in our line, the fins were useful for pushing along on the bottom of shallow ponds, got more efficient over time, so that legs evolved before there were land animals. There are fish in the Sargasso sea that have fins capable of grasping seaweed, and mudskippers have fins that serve as legs, allowing them to even climb trees.

You act as if there are millions upon millions of enificial mutations occurring in each person.

No, that's wrong. Let's say that one organism in a million has a beneficial mutation. Let's say that a population of 5 million organisms exists. So there will be five beneficial mutations per generation. In a thousand generations, that's five thousand beneficial mutations. To put that in context, humans have something like 30,000 genes.

..an in the "evolving fish" they all were directed at the fin.

No. For example, lungs were the process of evolving as well, from simple sacs in the esophagus of fish. And because there was more force on the fin-legs (these were lobed-fin fish, remember, so the major bones of our limbs were already there, long before they were used for walking on the bottoms of ponds) the bones became more robust and the connections to the spine became stronger. Again, you see that the adaptations for moving around underwater were the ones that made it possible for these fish to begin to walk on land.

All you've done here was present a theory.

No. I'm just citing the fossil evidence. Would you like me to show you some of it?

Then assumed certain fish such as the mudskipper evolved using homology...

Perhaps you don't know what "homology" means. Homology would be like the bones of oceanic lobed fin fish used for swimming, being the same as the bones you use for walking around. You're thinking of analogy, where mudskipper legs are analogous to those of lobed-fin fish, but are constructed of different tissues in different ways. This is why the "common creator" argument crashes and burns.

common body parts created by a commmon creator would be expected to be similar

Your assumption fails because it assumes what it intends to prove, and because your belief can't explain why whales swim with vertical motions while fish swim with horizontal ones. On the other hand, homology can easily show why this is the case.

A gulping goldfish demonstrates evolutionism?

"Evolutionism",as you might know, is a sort of strawman creationists invent because evolutionary theory is impossible to refute. However, a goldfish gulping air shows you how lungs evolved. Fish can gulp air and absorb it in their esophagus, as a suppliment, when gills can't get enough oxygen. Some fish have enlarged the surface of the esophagus, making it more efficient. Others have developed sacs and a few have lungs.

The reason lungs could evolve, is that each increment was advantageous. Do you see why the idea of lungs evolving from gills is impossible, but the change from gulping air in a straight esophagus to lungs is advantageous at every step?

Whatever.

The truth is in the details. There's no royal road to biology, either.
 
No, that's wrong. Let's say that one organism in a million has a beneficial mutation. Let's say that a population of 5 million organisms exists. So there will be five beneficial mutations per generation. In a thousand generations, that's five thousand beneficial mutations. To put that in context, humans have something like 30,000 genes.

Your problem keeps failing when a particulat train has to be mutated...NOT...just any trait.
 
Your problem keeps failing when a particulat train has to be mutated...NOT...just any trait.

Nope. As you see, every population has a massive number of mutations every year. Most of them don't do much of anything. A few are harmful, and tend to be removed by natural selection. A very few are useful, and tend to be preserved by natural selection.

As you learned, even if useful mutations are one in a million, that means thousands of useful mutations happen every year in populations. So it's easy to see why evolution works. We've actually seen this in detail. Barry Hall showed the evolution of a new, irreducibly complex enzyme system in bacteria over just a few months time.

A population of lizards introduced to an Adriatic island evolved a new digestive structure in just a few decades.

No point in denial. That's what evolution does. Would you like to learn more about these examples?
 
Nope. As you see, every population has a massive number of mutations every year. Most of them don't do much of anything. A few are harmful, and tend to be removed by natural selection. A very few are useful, and tend to be preserved by natural selection.

As you learned, even if useful mutations are one in a million, that means thousands of useful mutations happen every year in populations. So it's easy to see why evolution works. We've actually seen this in detail. Barry Hall showed the evolution of a new, irreducibly complex enzyme system in bacteria over just a few months time.

A population of lizards introduced to an Adriatic island evolved a new digestive structure in just a few decades.

No point in denial. That's what evolution does. Would you like to learn more about these examples?

Here is an example of make pretend being paraded out as science....make pretend numbers then the assumption that all of the millions of make believe numbers effect the same trait. Come on Barb. lets move into the world of science rather than some sort of speculative poor theory.

As to the lizards.....the heads changed size...much like the finche's beaks....not really evolutionism caused by a mutation. As to the stomach changes, the cecal valves already existed in scaled reptiles...and like a larger head was realized through selection or in this case reappeared.. No mutations required. The important part....NO MUTATIONS REQUIRED.
All you have done is present a case of rapid evolution inwhich I have never had a problem with and chalked it off to mutations that never occurred.
I trust you stand corrected.
 
Here is an example of make pretend being paraded out as science....make pretend numbers then the assumption that all of the millions of make believe numbers effect the same trait.

Nope. Notice that even if we take the extreme position that favorable mutations are one in a million, you still get thousands of mutations over a thousand generations of even a small population of animals. And of course, only those useful ones tend to be preserved. You don't have to imagine they are all affect the same trait.

As to the lizards.....the heads changed size...much like the finche's beaks....not really evolutionism caused by a mutation.

We were talking about a new digestive organ. When the lizards had to go to a diet based on plant food, they evolved a spiral valve that increases area to absorb food. If your argument is that no mutations at all are required for a new digestive organ, then we've found your problem.

Moreover, as you learned, bacteria were directly observed to evolve a new, irreducibly complex enzyme system in less than a year, and the mutations required were directly observed. So there's no point in denying what has been observed to happen.

As to the stomach changes, the cecal valves already existed in scaled reptiles..

Just not these lizards. No doubt, the mutations had happened numerous times in the past these lizards, but without natural selection to favor them, they never went anywhere. Once the environment changed, those mutations were preserved and each succeeding generation built on them.

.and like a larger head was realized through selection or in this case reappeared.. No mutations required. The important part....NO MUTATIONS REQUIRED.

That's how variation happens. Your belief, absent any evidence to support it, is just a story you tell.

And as you now realize, we actually have a case where every mutation in the evolution of a new enzyme system was documented. No way to dodge that.

I trust you stand corrected.
 
What ever variation ever seen was present in the genetic pool to begin with , no new info has been added .. DNA is a remarkable creation and contains more information than we'll ever know in this lifetime .. It may lose info but it doesn't add .. You will learn this one day maybe ..
 
What ever variation ever seen was present in the genetic pool to begin with

No, that's wrong. In the case of Hall's bacteria, the culture started with a single bacterium of known genome.

no new info has been added

That's wrong, too. The specific mutations were directly observed.

DNA is a remarkable creation and contains more information than we'll ever know in this lifetime .. It may lose info but it doesn't add

See above. Your belief is just wrong.
 
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