How do we discern what is legalism and what is allowed?

[Bull of the Woods]

Why does a person coming to God have to repent of their sin? Is their only sin not having believed in God? No, it was breaking His law. We all did that. They aren't benign beings who just made the mistake of not believing.

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Romans 2:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[OzSpen]

Right.
What I'm saying is in your last sentence.

I don't understand your first paragraph,,,it just muddies the water.

It would be nice if someone else also gave their belief.

I mean, I know I'm right (I'm always right!)
but I just don't know how to say it any other way.

Scripture belongs to those that are saved as far as INSTRUCTION goes. Those that are NOT saved...do not go to scripture for instruction.

Jesus dying for us while we were yet sinners, has nothing to do with our discussion.

Perhaps JLB or OzSpen would like to reply to this.

IS IT NECESSARY FOR NON-BELIEVERS TO OBEY GOD?

wondering,

Can unbelievers obey God?

Firstly, let's look at Jesus' command:

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt 28:19-20 NIV).

So the people capable of obeying Jesus are those who are being discipled. They are Christians. They need to be taught to obey.

What does Rom 8:7 teach? 'the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so' (NIV).

However, all non-believers cannot submit to God's law. They are hostile to God. This verse states that the fleshly mind cannot submit to God's law, whether addressing Christian or non-Christian.

Why don't you take a read of John Piper's Bible talk, You Cannot Obey God Without God? While I do not support Piper's extreme Calvinism, I consider what he wrote in this brief talk is excellent. Unbelievers who don't know God are incapable of obeying God's commands.

They can do good works but do not have the spiritual power to obey God.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Can unbelievers obey God?

Firstly, let's look at Jesus' command:



So the people capable of obeying Jesus are those who are being discipled. They are Christians. They need to be taught to obey.

What does Rom 8:7 teach? 'the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so' (NIV).

However, all non-believers cannot submit to God's law. They are hostile to God. This verse states that the fleshly mind cannot submit to God's law, whether addressing Christian or non-Christian.

Why don't you take a read of John Piper's Bible talk, You Cannot Obey God Without God? While I do not support Piper's extreme Calvinism, I consider what he wrote in this brief talk is excellent. Unbelievers who don't know God are incapable of obeying God's commands.

They can do good works but do not have the spiritual power to obey God.

Oz

Hi Oz,,,,thanks for the above.
I really meant your reply to be for WIP

I couldn't explain myself properly to him.
The above post is perfect!

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Do believers completely successfully obey God?

 

[OzSpen]

Do believers completely successfully obey God?

Nope. Well, I don't. Do you?

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Nope. Well, I don't. Do you?

No. I thought it an interesting in light of the discussion about unbelievers and the law.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do believers completely successfully obey God?

Nope.
Do you know anybody that does?

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Nope.
Do you know anybody that does?

No

 

[GodsGrace]

No

John Wesley believed in entire sanctification in this life.
Holiness churches taugth this... I used to attend one...(Nazarene).
I've been gone a long time from the U.S. but I hear that these churches are pulling away from this idea.

It's interesting that the early Christians had the same thought, which they also had to abandon early on.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Nope.
Do you know anybody that does?

I think that the question should really be, "do we always obey God?" Since I often try to, and a lot of the time I'm successful, but not always as the only one who would answer yes to that is Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that the question should really be, "do we always obey God?" Since I often try to, and a lot of the time I'm successful, but not always as the only one who would answer yes to that is Jesus Christ.

Right!
IF we always obeyed God,,,
we'd be perfect.

It's unfortunate that when we become born again we STILL have the sin nature within us and it holds us back.

However, we could be happy that it is kept under submission by the power of the Holy Spirit and sinning can be counted to be at a minimum.

Paul spoke of the battle between the flesh and the spirit.
But, I do believe, the spirit wins in the long run.

We are slaves to the one to whom we present ourselves...
and as BACs we present ourselves to God.

Romans 6:16

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Right!
IF we always obeyed God,,,
we'd be perfect.

It's unfortunate that when we become born again we STILL have the sin nature within us and it holds us back.

However, we could be happy that it is kept under submission by the power of the Holy Spirit and sinning can be counted to be at a minimum.

Paul spoke of the battle between the flesh and the spirit.
But, I do believe, the spirit wins in the long run.

We are slaves to the one to whom we present ourselves...
and as BACs we present ourselves to God.

Romans 6:16

True. Although we still have our sinful nature, the really good news is that our sins aren't held against us because we have already been saved through the blood of Christ.

 

[WIP]

True. Although we still have our sinful nature, the really good news is that our sins aren't held against us because we have already been saved through the blood of Christ.

Are the sins of unbelievers held against them?

 

[GodsGrace]

True. Although we still have our sinful nature, the really good news is that our sins aren't held against us because we have already been saved through the blood of Christ.

I agree.
But do YOU agree that we sin less and less as we mature in Christ?

 

[Christ_empowered]

as another poster pointed out, not only does every human being need Jesus, every human being is commanded to believe upon Jesus and accept His rules. and yet...

few do. and some who do fall away.

the whole point of 'getting saved' is to become mindful of one's state as a human being, born into sin who desperately needs Jesus for forgiveness, guidance, salvation, etc. in large part to 'save' one from God's wrath, now and in the world to come.

sanctification...gradually, results in less sin, more openness to repenting of sin patterns, etc., and a shift in overall outlook, actions, etc...less worldly, more '...in the world, but not of it...,' etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

as another poster pointed out, not only does every human being need Jesus, every human being is commanded to believe upon Jesus and accept His rules. and yet...

few do. and some who do fall away.

the whole point of 'getting saved' is to become mindful of one's state as a human being, born into sin who desperately needs Jesus for forgiveness, guidance, salvation, etc. in large part to 'save' one from God's wrath, now and in the world to come.

sanctification...gradually, results in less sin, more openness to repenting of sin patterns, etc., and a shift in overall outlook, actions, etc...less worldly, more '...in the world, but not of it...,' etc.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Are the sins of unbelievers held against them?

If they don't repent for them then yes.

I agree.
But do YOU agree that we sin less and less as we mature in Christ?

Yep!

 

[JohnDB]

Now then...
as discussed above this exact thing is what keeps people from coming to saving knowledge of Christ. I know of many people who actually have a very healthy fear/respect for God and Jesus but do not believe that they can worship God because of "transgressions" (ongoing sins that they can't stop committing). They have no idea how to "get right enough" and stay "right enough" to being to worship God with a clean conscience and clean hands. They feel too dirty to even go to church much less offer a prayer to The Almighty.

So how to convince them that their condition is completely understood by God but that they still will have to give up their sins is the main struggle I have with most that I deal with.
I'm open to suggestions on this.

 

[OzSpen]

Are the sins of unbelievers held against them?

WIP,

Wouldn't John 3:18 (ESV) answer that question? "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God".

Oz