How do we discern what is legalism and what is allowed?

[evenifigoalone]

But it's not extra-biblical. 1 John 2:15 tells us to not love "the world" or anything from it. Do people usually watch movies, listen to music, play video games etc. because they hate them? No. It's because they like them. Liking is love of a lesser degree.

I'd counter that verse 16, which goes on to specify "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" means we're not talking about those things.
God made music, music exists in heaven and we know this because back when Satan was Lucifer he was the music leader. God gave people the ability to tell creative stories, and to design games that challenge one's abilities. None of these things are inherently bad. It's how they are used and what messages they promote that are bad.
Here's a link with some commentary on the verses you gave:

What does it mean that we are not to love the world? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that we are not to love the world? Why is it wrong to love the world? What aspect of the world are we not to love?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[GodsGrace]

I keep coming across these YouTube channels of Christians who expose evil and they seem to find it in everything. Messages like "follow your heart" and "break the rules" from Disney animated movies are satanic, there's always a secret agenda in Hollywood to turn everyone away from God, to twist God's word etc. Watching most movies, listening to most music and, well, considering the indecent ads that YouTube has nowadays, pretty much watching anything online nowadays is a sin. Don't even get me started on video games and books. Most of them are about fantasy monsters (orcs, aliens etc.), so they're obviously satanic.

I have no idea how to discern what is legalism and what is allowed to do as a Christian. Should I just live like a medieval monk and do nothing but pray, read the Bible and eat?

To the pure, all things are pure.
You think if you watch an R rated movie you'll go straight to hell?
Somehow we know when we cross the line.
A person can't spend his life wondering if he's sinning or not.
A know some monks that live by themselves..there's 5 or 6 of them.
They believe they sin every day.
Just don't abandon God.
He'll tell you what to do...IF HE tells you, it can be done...
if not it can't.

 

[GodsGrace]

But it's not extra-biblical. 1 John 2:15 tells us to not love "the world" or anything from it. Do people usually watch movies, listen to music, play video games etc. because they hate them? No. It's because they like them. Liking is love of a lesser degree.

Do not love the world means do not love the world system.
For instance there's corruption on so many levels...
be aware of it...don't love it.

Some ADULT people invent those very violent and harmful video games which are ruining our young. We are to hate that this is being done.

We hate that Christianity is being banned more and more.
These are world systems....it's more than just playing a video game or whatever.

It's things that are changing how we live..
what we hold dear...
what we honor.

The earth is beautiful...
it's the world systems that are not because they're infested with evil.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I'd counter that verse 16, which goes on to specify "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" means we're not talking about those things.
God made music, music exists in heaven and we know this because back when Satan was Lucifer he was the music leader. God gave people the ability to tell creative stories, and to design games that challenge one's abilities. None of these things are inherently bad. It's how they are used and what messages they promote that are bad.
Here's a link with some commentary on the verses you gave:

What does it mean that we are not to love the world? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that we are not to love the world? Why is it wrong to love the world? What aspect of the world are we not to love?

www.gotquestions.org

It may also be worth noting that the word for love used in the Greek for this verse was "agapate". Agape is a specific type of love that is sacrificial in nature. I'm not sure if agapate has the same meaning, but I would say a sacrificial love would be inappropriate to have for something like a movie.

That said, Google was NOT being helpful to me, so if there's anyone in here who knows Greek please correct me

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Is legalism people who make up religious rules?

 

[Christ_empowered]

the chaos of my former existence led me to believe, for a season, in the strict and really...authoritarian....beliefs and dogma of The Pentecostals. And yet...

look man, i was raised to think for myself, and that stuff ain't cuttin' it. no, no, no ma'am.

so, now, i lean towards my calvinist roots. TULIP, all that jazz. problem? calvinist churches tend to be stodgy and uninviting, if you're...you know, a misfit and an outsider. the pentecostal churches will take you as you are...

but they expect you to cut your hair, get a real job, and vote Republican, sooner, rather than later. no, thank you. :-(

so, legalism...rules are necessary, for order. personally, i -choose- to abstain from the booze, and im quitting the smokes. no drugs other than the (boring, but necessary) Rx pills from a kind psych nurse practitioner.

i dunno. my non-church going perspective is...keep mind altering substances to a minimum, flee temptation to whatever extent possible, pray often and earnestly, and...

turn off the tv! seriously, I think we're being brainwashed by our entertainment, and its not good for anyone, especially those who belong to Christ.

((end rant))

 

[WIP]

No. Legalism is often if not mostly a forbidding of things not forbidden by scripture.
It's often superficial stuff.
Very often things that the person coming up with these rules can obey while failing in the real things of showing grace and love and compassion.

Legalism can also include rules defined in Scripture as I understand the term. Legalism is when we define the law or rules as a way to attain salvation. It is not legalism to preach the adherence to the law once one is saved. If that was true, then most of the New Testament is a book of legalism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Legalism can also include rules defined in Scripture as I understand the term. Legalism is when we define the law or rules as a way to attain salvation. It is not legalism to preach the adherence to the law once one is saved. If that was true, then most of the New Testament is a book of legalism.

Agreed.
Some tell me I'm legalist because I state that God must be obeyed.
God has demanded obedience since the beginning of time...that is not legalism to me.

It's what YOU said...
Trying to do WORKS to ATTAIN salvation.

Not because works are bad...they are required after salvation...
but because our works do not save us.
Faith saves us.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Ephesians 2:10

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 2:10

That comes AFTER salvation.
Right?

 

[Christ_empowered]

God provides what The Elect need to come to Him in repentance (Irresistible grace, if you want to follow along with TULIP, lol)...

then, Perseverance of the saints...the genuinely, truly converted+regenerated will "get with the program," over time.

 

[WIP]

Agreed.
Some tell me I'm legalist because I state that God must be obeyed.
God has demanded obedience since the beginning of time...that is not legalism to me.

It's what YOU said...
Trying to do WORKS to ATTAIN salvation.

Not because works are bad...they are required after salvation...
but because our works do not save us.
Faith saves us.

They are also required before salvation. The law applies always, right?

 

[GodsGrace]

They are also required before salvation. The law applies always, right?

WIP, I don't think anything is required before salvation.
Before salvation the person is lost.
One cannot get anymore lost than lost.

There is no reason for them to obey God
There is no reason for them to do any works.

Unsaved persons can still be moral and live good lives,,,but this will not save them.

I think we all agree on this.
Think it over and let me know.

WHY would an unsaved person be required to obey God?
He's lost anyway.

 

[Bull of the Woods]

I think the unsaved ARE required to obey the law whether it's the written one if they are aware of that or the one in their heart.
They are required but there is no expectation they will or can.
But that doesn't remove the responsibility.
But I am not a deep learned theologian. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

But no rules or laws can save. It's pointless telling someone they should not do something because if they want they will do it anyhow. Only the spirit can guide individuals from the inside.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the unsaved ARE required to obey the law whether it's the written one if they are aware of that or the one in their heart.
They are required but there is no expectation they will or can.
But that doesn't remove the responsibility.
But I am not a deep learned theologian. Correct me if I am wrong.

Why is an unsaved person required to obey the Law of God?

By unsaved I mean someone that is an atheist, someone that denies God, someone that has no concept of God.

2 Timothy 2:12b
"If 23 deny Him,,,He will also deny us".

Jesus also said this in Mathew 10:33

If we deny God...we are lost.
What difference does it make if we obey Him or not?
Richard Dawkins might obey God more than I do...
so what difference will it make for him?

(I think he's passed away).

 

[WIP]

WIP, I don't think anything is required before salvation.
Before salvation the person is lost.
One cannot get anymore lost than lost.

There is no reason for them to obey God
There is no reason for them to do any works.

Unsaved persons can still be moral and live good lives,,,but this will not save them.

I think we all agree on this.
Think it over and let me know.

WHY would an unsaved person be required to obey God?
He's lost anyway.

I agree with what you are saying but what I am suggesting is that God requires our obedience before we are saved as much as after. "For God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 NIV

Christ didn't wait for us tool no longer be sinners but had to die for us because we were unable to fulfill the law by our own ability. Christ did not come to abolish the law, which had already existed. He came to fulfill it.

Before salvation we are condemned already because we do not believe and obey.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with what you are saying but what I am suggesting is that God requires our obedience before we are saved as much as after. "For God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 NIV

Christ didn't wait for us tool no longer be sinners but had to die for us because we were unable to fulfill the law by our own ability. Christ did not come to abolish the law, which had already existed. He came to fulfill it.

Before salvation we are condemned already because we do not believe and obey.

Right.
What I'm saying is in your last sentence.

I don't understand your first paragraph,,,it just muddies the water.

It would be nice if someone else also gave their belief.

I mean, I know I'm right (I'm always right!)
but I just don't know how to say it any other way.

Scripture belongs to those that are saved as far as INSTRUCTION goes. Those that are NOT saved...do not go to scripture for instruction.

Jesus dying for us while we were yet sinners, has nothing to do with our discussion.

Perhaps JLB or OzSpen would like to reply to this.

IS IT NECESSARY FOR NON-BELIEVERS TO OBEY GOD?

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Why is an unsaved person required to obey the Law of God?

By unsaved I mean someone that is an atheist, someone that denies God, someone that has no concept of God.

2 Timothy 2:12b
"If 23 deny Him,,,He will also deny us".

Jesus also said this in Mathew 10:33

If we deny God...we are lost.
What difference does it make if we obey Him or not?
Richard Dawkins might obey God more than I do...
so what difference will it make for him?

(I think he's passed away).

If they aren't required then they aren't guilty of any infraction against God.
But we know they ARE guilty.

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Why is an unsaved person required to obey the Law of God?

By unsaved I mean someone that is an atheist, someone that denies God, someone that has no concept of God.

2 Timothy 2:12b
"If 23 deny Him,,,He will also deny us".

Jesus also said this in Mathew 10:33

If we deny God...we are lost.
What difference does it make if we obey Him or not?
Richard Dawkins might obey God more than I do...
so what difference will it make for him?

(I think he's passed away).

Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)