How is the law abolished?

[ezrider]

According to the law, who had the right to seek justice for a murder?

Let's see, it's been a long, long time so help me out here. In regard to murder, that is to be handled by the courts. If the courts deem a death accidental, yet the kin of the deceased desire him dead, the man can move to a sanctuary city where he is safe. Catch him outside that city and he's fair game for kin. I'm rusty and may be wrong, but I remember it that way. I'm counting on you or others to keep me straight.

This was the answer I was looking for. It was the kin who held the right to claim justice for a death. In the KJV, he is called the avenger of the blood. The sanctuary cities were set up as a place they could flee to from the avenger. There the matter was heard by a court, if found guilty, they were turned back over to the avenger of the blood for justice.

Concerning abortions, many factors need to be considered. Some honestly believe what they are taught in the schools and media that a fetus isn't really a baby, so your not really killing anything. You and I know better, but we need to understand that some don't really know what they are doing, and that has to be a consideration.

On the other hand, drs and some patience are not ignorant and clearly violate Gods law.

In the case of an abortion, who is the avenger of the blood that seeks justice before the courts?

 

[stovebolts]

This was the answer I was looking for. It was the kin who held the right to claim justice for a death. In the KJV, he is called the avenger of the blood. The sanctuary cities were set up as a place they could flee to from the avenger. There the matter was heard by a court if found guilty, they were turned back over to the avenger of the blood for justice.




In the case of abortion, who is the avenger of the blood that seeks justice before the courts?

To answer your question, it would be kin.

Ok, coming full circle, we know that only the Jews were under the Law, but as Christians, it it our schoolmaster. Non-Christians are still bound to the Noahide laws.

In the case of abortion in line with the Noahide laws, we must have fair courts and we understand the majority of abortion cases ( not all )goes against the Noahide laws.

With the Mosaic Law as our school master, we could frame a fair law something like this.

If a woman does not want her unborn child, the child must be offered to the Father to raise if they were not married. If the Father does not want to raise the child, then the immediate family from both the Mother and Father would be offered the child to raise. If no immediate family is willing, then the extended family would be offered to the child. If no extended family wanted to raise the child, then the child would be put into the foster care system with hopes of adoption.

If the mother aborted the child because she didn't want to raise it and didn't qualify for legitimate reasons to abort the pregnancy, and no family was given the opportunity to raise the child, then the kin would be able to take the mother to court to avenge the unlawful death of an unborn child.

That, I believe would be a very rough, high level draft of how a just law might be delineated from scripture. A comprehensive law would take pages to write.

 

[ezrider]

To answer your question, it would be kin.

If we have learned from our schoolmaster, then why not leave it to the kin to decide?

Who is able to bring charges against the women or the doctor in the laws being passed in the states today?

Ok, coming full circle, we know that only the Jews were under the Law, but as Christians, it it our schoolmaster. Non-Christians are still bound to the Noahide laws.

In the case of abortion in line with the Noahide laws, we must have fair courts and we understand the majority of abortion cases ( not all )goes against the Noahide laws.

With the Mosaic Law as our school master, we could frame a fair law something like this.

If a woman does not want her unborn child, the child must be offered to the Father to raise if they were not married. If the Father does not want to raise the child, then the immediate family from both the Mother and Father would be offered the child to raise. If no immediate family is willing, then the extended family would be offered to the child. If no extended family wanted to raise the child, then the child would be put into the foster care system with hopes of adoption.

If the mother aborted the child because she didn't want to raise it and didn't qualify for legitimate reasons to abort the pregnancy, and no family was given the opportunity to raise the child, then the kin would be able to take the mother to court to avenge the unlawful death of an unborn child.

That, I believe would be a very rough, high level draft of how a just law might be delineated from scripture. A comprehensive law would take pages to write.

Why do we need to write a comprehensive law? Did not the Lord God already give a commandment that said thou shall not kill? Do we think that we can improve upon that? Comprehensive laws that take pages to write are for those who wont walk according faith. Comprehensive laws are meant to give justification of ones actions under the law.

If we walk according to faith, then what is so hard about letting the families of the women of the unborn child decide?

 

[stovebolts]

If we have learned from our schoolmaster, then why not leave it to the kin to decide?

Who is able to bring charges against the women or the doctor in the laws being passed in the states today?




Why do we need to write a comprehensive law? Did not the Lord God already give a commandment that said thou shall not kill? Do we think that we can improve upon that? Comprehensive laws that take pages to write are for those who wont walk according faith. Comprehensive laws are meant to give justification of ones actions under the law.

If we walk according to faith, then what is so hard about letting the families of the women of the unborn child decide?

Comprehensive laws are required because not everyone walks by faith...

If everyone walked by faith, abortions wouldn't be an issue because they wouldn't occur.

 

[ezrider]

Comprehensive laws are required because not everyone walks by faith...

If everyone walked by faith, abortions wouldn't be an issue because they wouldn't occur.

Everyone walks by faith. Not everyone walks according to your faith.

Some put their faith in laws.

 

[stovebolts]

Everyone walks by faith. Not everyone walks according to your faith.

Some put their faith in laws.

While this may be true, what do you see as a working solution that takes all of this into consideration?

Who knows, maybe we here at cf.net could start something that caught on. I mean, God trusted 12 men to spread the gospel and look at it now.

 

[for_his_glory]

There were unwritten laws before the laws were given to Moses as those laws mostly pertained to the Israelites

In Romans 5: 12-14, Paul is discussing the time period between Adam and Moses. Sin entered the world through one man (Adam). The penalty of sin is death, and Paul tells us that death entered humanity through Adam. All humans have sinned, Rom. 3:23, and death, therefore, has power over everyone. In verse 13, Paul uses the word law in two different senses. One law was given through Moses, but before that law was given, a more fundamental law existed. Between the time of Adam and Moses, everyone sinned. They were ignoring God, going their own ways, doing things God did not want them to do. God's law existed, even though it had not been written down, and everyone was transgressing it. Therefore, death ruled over them all, even if they did not break a specific command in the way that Adam did. Adam and Eve should have obeyed, but they acted selfishly, and they sinned. They wanted wisdom, but they tried to take it for themselves instead of receiving it legitimately. The result was death for them and all their descendants. All human beings have a selfishness that predisposes them to sin. Everyone sins, and everyone needs the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as Paul explains in Romans 5.

Cain had a built-in sense of right and wrong. He knew that his attitude toward his brother was wrong. God told Cain to resist the sinful nature, but instead he allowed it to rule over him, and he murdered his brother. This was a sin, even though no written law said it was. All normal humans have a conscience, a natural inbuilt sense of right and wrong. This is what Paul refers to in Romans 2:14-15. By nature, God has written a moral sense, a law, into human hearts. Their understanding of right and wrong is not perfect, but every sane person has at least a basic concept of right and wrong, of love and selfishness. Although everyone falls short, some people do have good behavior as compared to others. By nature, they do things that are required in God's law — not the rituals of Moses, but the more general requirements of the law that existed before Moses.

Although many people try to do what they think to be right, none is perfect. Many others choose to live selfishly, violating the standards of their societies. The biblical story tells us that people became more and more violent, and God destroyed them with a flood, Gen. 6:11-13. After the flood, he gave an additional warning about murder, Gen. 9:5-6. He also established a covenant or agreement with Noah, promising that he would not destroy the earth with a flood, verses 8-11. Abraham believed God, and he was therefore judged to be in a right relationship with God even though he was not perfect. If Abraham believed God's astounding promise, then he also had enough faith to do whatever God asked. Even when God's command seemed to threaten God's promise to him, Abraham was willing to obey God. But it was the faith, not the obedience, that was counted for righteousness. The attitude of heart was considered more important than the result.

 

[stovebolts]

There were unwritten laws before the laws were given to Moses as those laws mostly pertained to the Israelites

In Romans 5: 12-14, Paul is discussing the time period between Adam and Moses. Sin entered the world through one man (Adam). The penalty of sin is death, and Paul tells us that death entered humanity through Adam. All humans have sinned, Rom. 3:23, and death, therefore, has power over everyone. In verse 13, Paul uses the word law in two different senses. One law was given through Moses, but before that law was given, a more fundamental law existed. Between the time of Adam and Moses, everyone sinned. They were ignoring God, going their own ways, doing things God did not want them to do. God's law existed, even though it had not been written down, and everyone was transgressing it. Therefore, death ruled over them all, even if they did not break a specific command in the way that Adam did. Adam and Eve should have obeyed, but they acted selfishly, and they sinned. They wanted wisdom, but they tried to take it for themselves instead of receiving it legitimately. The result was death for them and all their descendants. All human beings have a selfishness that predisposes them to sin. Everyone sins, and everyone needs the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as Paul explains in Romans 5.

Cain had a built-in sense of right and wrong. He knew that his attitude toward his brother was wrong. God told Cain to resist the sinful nature, but instead he allowed it to rule over him, and he murdered his brother. This was a sin, even though no written law said it was. All normal humans have a conscience, a natural inbuilt sense of right and wrong. This is what Paul refers to in Romans 2:14-15. By nature, God has written a moral sense, a law, into human hearts. Their understanding of right and wrong is not perfect, but every sane person has at least a basic concept of right and wrong, of love and selfishness. Although everyone falls short, some people do have good behavior as compared to others. By nature, they do things that are required in God's law — not the rituals of Moses, but the more general requirements of the law that existed before Moses.

Although many people try to do what they think to be right, none is perfect. Many others choose to live selfishly, violating the standards of their societies. The biblical story tells us that people became more and more violent, and God destroyed them with a flood, Gen. 6:11-13. After the flood, he gave an additional warning about murder, Gen. 9:5-6. He also established a covenant or agreement with Noah, promising that he would not destroy the earth with a flood, verses 8-11. Abraham believed God, and he was therefore judged to be in a right relationship with God even though he was not perfect. If Abraham believed God's astounding promise, then he also had enough faith to do whatever God asked. Even when God's command seemed to threaten God's promise to him, Abraham was willing to obey God. But it was the faith, not the obedience, that was counted for righteousness. The attitude of heart was considered more important than the result.

This is a very good post!

 

[ezrider]

There were unwritten laws before the laws were given to Moses

Cain had a built-in sense of right and wrong. He knew that his attitude toward his brother was wrong.

I suppose rather that Cain learned the laws from his father, who himself learned the laws when he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

 

[ezrider]

While this may be true, what do you see as a working solution that takes all of this into consideration?

Why do you need to find a working solution that takes all this into consideration? Do you weep and mourn for every fetus that is aborted? Do you weep and mourn for every child who grows up in violence and poverty? Do you celebrate with joy the birth of every baby born?


With the law as our schoolmaster, if a women aborts a fetus, is it not up the the nearest of kin to the women to decide her justice? Whether she is deserving of mercy and compassion? Or whether she is deserving of punishment and scorn, or even death?

How do you feel about the honor killings that still occur in some cultures around the world? Is this something you would be in favor of?

When Jesus was delivered of the High Priest to Pilate they knew they had no right of claim under Jewish law to kill Christ themselves, as they told Pilate that it is not lawful for them to put any man to death. So they delivered Him to an authority who could, the Beast who ruled over them.

The state of Alabama now has a law that can punish a doctor by up to 99 years in prison for performing an abortion. The State now has that authority, even if no family member comes forward to seek justice for the alleged murder.

Is this something that our schoolmaster has taught us do? Is this what we have learned from the words of Jesus and the gospel of the kingdom?


I have watched the conservative block withhold hundreds of federal justices from being confirmed to the bench durning the last administration, including that of a supreme justice of the land all in the hopes to stack the courts in their favor. They have now filled most of those seats that had been withheld, and now these new abortion laws march forth giving power to the Beast. Careful what you wish for.



Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

[ezrider]

here is one for wondering

from the Italian poem "the People"
By Tomasso Campanella

The people is a beast of muddy brain
that knows not its own force, and therefore stands
loaded with wood and stone, the powerless bands
of a mere child guide it with bit and stone

One kick would be enough to break the chain;
But the beast fears, and what the child demands,
it does; nor its own terror understands,
confused and stupefied by bugbears vain

Most wonderful! with its own hands it ties
and gags itself - gives itself death and war
for pence doled out by kings from its own stores

Its own are all things between the earth and the heaven,
But this it knows not; and if one arise
to tell the truth, it kills him unforgiven

 

[GodsGrace]

here is one for wondering

from the Italian poem "the People"
By Tomasso Campanella

The people is a beast of muddy brain
that knows not its own force, and therefore stands
loaded with wood and stone, the powerless bands
of a mere child guide it with bit and stone

One kick would be enough to break the chain;
But the beast fears, and what the child demands,
it does; nor its own terror understands,
confused and stupefied by bugbears vain

Most wonderful! with its own hands it ties
and gags itself - gives itself death and war
for pence doled out by kings from its own stores

Its own are all things between the earth and the heaven,
But this it knows not; and if one arise
to tell the truth, it kills him unforgiven

Hey EZ,,
Where've you been?
It's nice to see you back.
Deep into thought, as usual.

I was raised in NY and studied over there so I really don't know Tomasso Campanella..how do you know of him? Do you study philosophy?

I'm studying the Church Fathers right now and a little bit the Council of Trent. But I looked him up on google and I think he'll be my next project since I agree that humanity is in a sad state, and always has been. Because no matter how much we progress, our nature remains the same, and we cannot learn.

I'll be going through this thread in a bit...

 

[stovebolts]

Why do you need to find a working solution that takes all this into consideration? Do you weep and mourn for every fetus that is aborted? Do you weep and mourn for every child who grows up in violence and poverty? Do you celebrate with joy the birth of every baby born?


With the law as our schoolmaster, if a women aborts a fetus, is it not up the the nearest of kin to the women to decide her justice? Whether she is deserving of mercy and compassion? Or whether she is deserving of punishment and scorn, or even death?

How do you feel about the honor killings that still occur in some cultures around the world? Is this something you would be in favor of?

When Jesus was delivered of the High Priest to Pilate they knew they had no right of claim under Jewish law to kill Christ themselves, as they told Pilate that it is not lawful for them to put any man to death. So they delivered Him to an authority who could, the Beast who ruled over them.

The state of Alabama now has a law that can punish a doctor by up to 99 years in prison for performing an abortion. The State now has that authority, even if no family member comes forward to seek justice for the alleged murder.

Is this something that our schoolmaster has taught us do? Is this what we have learned from the words of Jesus and the gospel of the kingdom?


I have watched the conservative block withhold hundreds of federal justices from being confirmed to the bench durning the last administration, including that of a supreme justice of the land all in the hopes to stack the courts in their favor. They have now filled most of those seats that had been withheld, and now these new abortion laws march forth giving power to the Beast. Careful what you wish for.



Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

I got the idea off the get go that you really didn't want to talk about the OP, but rather saw this as an opportunity to talk about current events.

In the Noahide laws, we are to have courts of justice. Comprehensive laws would need to address your concern as well as addressing the definition of life. Some say a baby isn't really a life form until the moment it is born and the cord is cut. Others say it's life at the moment of conception. Comprehensive laws would need to cover these items and much more.

As far as Alabama, don't fool yourself and don't get caught up in all the hype and mongering going about. Criminalization is a direct violation of the constitution as currently ruled by Roe vs Wade. As a result, the law cannot go into effect and even the governor understood this when she signed it, as did the original author. This law was specifically written to be a violation of the constitution by design for the sole purpose of making its way up the chain to the Supreme Court to challenge Roe vs Wade with the consideration of two new conservative Supreme Court Justices appointed by President Trump at the beginning of his term. See what one can learn listening to NPR!

Let's not pull this thread off track any further. We can continue the discussion here

I'm Sick.....Abortion?

Currently am in hot debate with prochoicers. It's like stepping into a hornet's nest. They are rude as frick. I never heard that saying before but that actually made me laugh. :lol

christianforums.net

 

[for_his_glory]

I suppose rather that Cain learned the laws from his father, who himself learned the laws when he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Actually Adam received seven laws/commands from God before He was deceived in eating from the tree of knowledge when God placed him in the garden of Eden so these were the laws Adam would have taught his children.

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

 

[stovebolts]

Actually Adam received seven laws/commands from God before He was deceived in eating from the tree of knowledge when God placed him in the garden of Eden so these were the laws Adam would have taught his children.

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Yes, and it is also understood that Abraham was given the 613 according to Jewish stories.

Ever wonder how Cain and Able were instructed to give offerings and who instructed them?

 

[ezrider]

I got the idea off the get go that you really didn't want to talk about the OP, but rather saw this as an opportunity to talk about current events.

I have absolutely no interest in an abortion debate, that is not my intent. I have brought up the current events as it relates to the application of the law.

 

[ezrider]

Actually Adam received seven laws/commands from God before He was deceived in eating from the tree of knowledge when God placed him in the garden of Eden so these were the laws Adam would have taught his children.

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Adam learned all the laws from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Just as we learn the knowledge of good and evil through the law today.

 

[ezrider]

Hey EZ,,
Where've you been?
It's nice to see you back.
Deep into thought, as usual.

I was raised in NY and studied over there so I really don't know Tomasso Campanella..how do you know of him? Do you study philosophy?

I was raised in NY too. Not NY NY, but the other NY

I don't know of him either. No, the poem was in the forward of a book on economics that I got from my mother some years back. A beast of muddy brain, it just kind of stuck with me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus has already fulfilled parts of the Mosaic/Levtical laws, but yet the ten commandments will not be fulfilled until Christ returns as they are contained in the moral parts of the laws for all of us to still follow as within the greatest commandment of love.

We carry this love in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

 

[stovebolts]

I have absolutely no interest in an abortion debate, that is not my intent. I have brought up the current events as it relates to the application of the law.

I agree, and no debates would be had. However, solutions need to be discussed from a biblical perspective. With our combined biblical understanding, it may be a very good discussion.