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How much of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation do partial preterists view as fulfilled?

Quantrill

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Exactly. The Gospel was being presented.


Turn to Him, or perish.


JLB

Yes, but it is the Gospel of the Kingdom that is being presented by Christ and others at the first.

(Matt. 3:1-2) (Matt. 4:17) (Matt. 10:5-7)

I am Dispensational in doctrine.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

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Consider this time line of (Matt. 24). I have always found it helpful.

Jesus said He will not be known to Israel till they are ready to receive Him. (Matt. 23:39) This causes the disciples to ask two questions. 1.) When shall these things be? (Matt. 24:3) 2.)What shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world or age? (Matt. 24:3)

The first question is not answered in (Matt. 24). The second is. The first question is answered in (Luke 21:12-24) The first question deals with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The second question deals with the end of the age or the Tribulation period. So in (Matt. 24) the Tribulation period is being spoken of.

1.) Before the Tribulation. 70 AD. (Luke 21:12-24) See 'before' in (Luke 21:12)
2.) Beginning or first half of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:4-14) Also called the 'beginning of sorrows'. (Matt. 24:8)
3.) Middle of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:15-20) and (Dan. 9:27)
4.) Last half of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:21-28)
5.) After the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:29-31)

Quantrill
 

JLB

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The first question is not answered in (Matt. 24). The second is. The first question is answered in (Luke 21:12-24) The first question deals with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The second question deals with the end of the age or the Tribulation period. So in (Matt. 24) the Tribulation period is being spoken of.

Would you mind starting a thread on why you believe Luke 21:12-24 deals with 70 AD?


I would like to here more about what you believe about this subject as a Dispensationalist.



JLB
 

Quantrill

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Would you mind starting a thread on why you believe Luke 21:12-24 deals with 70 AD?


I would like to here more about what you believe about this subject as a Dispensationalist.



JLB

I don't mind at all. And I have started a thread on it.

Quantrill
 

for_his_glory

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Consider this time line of (Matt. 24). I have always found it helpful.

Jesus said He will not be known to Israel till they are ready to receive Him. (Matt. 23:39) This causes the disciples to ask two questions. 1.) When shall these things be? (Matt. 24:3) 2.)What shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world or age? (Matt. 24:3)

The first question is not answered in (Matt. 24). The second is. The first question is answered in (Luke 21:12-24) The first question deals with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The second question deals with the end of the age or the Tribulation period. So in (Matt. 24) the Tribulation period is being spoken of.

1.) Before the Tribulation. 70 AD. (Luke 21:12-24) See 'before' in (Luke 21:12)
2.) Beginning or first half of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:4-14) Also called the 'beginning of sorrows'. (Matt. 24:8)
3.) Middle of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:15-20) and (Dan. 9:27)
4.) Last half of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:21-28)
5.) After the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:29-31)

Quantrill

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord...............................Nowhere does it say He will not be known to Israel till they are ready to receive Him. Only God knows the day and hour of Christ return, Matthew 24:36-39, and it is we who need to be prepared ahead of time for His coming. God is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9. Only God knows the very last person who will repent and turn back to Him.

Tribulation can not be measured by beginning, middle or last half as there have always been tribulations and have escalated throughout all the generations from the time of Christ as we, through much tribulation will as God is not enter into the Kingdom of God, Acts 14:22.

Matthew 24:3 The first question, "when shall these things be?" was answered by Jesus in vs. 2 with He speaking about the destruction of the Temple that happened in 70AD, approximately 37 years after Jesus ascended up to heaven.

In vs 4 Jesus tells His disciples to take heed that no man deceive you. Then Jesus proceeds through out this chapter to tell them the future signs of the end of the age and in vs. 29-31 what to watch for on the last day at the end of all tribulations, abominations and God's seven trumpets and vial judgments of His great and fierce wrath being poured out upon the earth, Rev 8-16. When Christ returns on the last day we are then caught up to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, final judgment is made when the books are opened, Rev 20:11-15, and we who have endured until the end will be saved from the lake of fire as we will have eternal life with the Father in the New Jerusalem.
 

Quantrill

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Can you explain what this means?

It means I hold to the 'Dispensational' view of Scripture.

It means consideration is given to the time and covenants and dispensations when interpreting any part of Scripture.

Dispensation speaks to a 'stewardship'. A responsibility of man toward God.

For example: Adam and Eve in the Garden. What could describe the dispensation or responsibility they were under toward God? Several things. 1.) They were without sin. 2.) They were given charge over the Garden. 3.) They could eat of any tree of the Garden except the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, of which they were commanded not to eat.

So all that occurred at that time, as written in Scripture, needs to be interpreted under those conditions. We cannot get up and preach today that God doesn't want us to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That cow is out of the barn. We are not in innocence as Adam and Eve were. We are not in paradise as Adam and Eve were.

Dispensation speaks to a stewardship, responsibility, and a time. Covenants are involved in describing the stewardship.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

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Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord...............................Nowhere does it say He will not be known to Israel till they are ready to receive Him. Only God knows the day and hour of Christ return, Matthew 24:36-39, and it is we who need to be prepared ahead of time for His coming. God is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9. Only God knows the very last person who will repent and turn back to Him.

Tribulation can not be measured by beginning, middle or last half as there have always been tribulations and have escalated throughout all the generations from the time of Christ as we, through much tribulation will as God is not enter into the Kingdom of God, Acts 14:22.

Matthew 24:3 The first question, "when shall these things be?" was answered by Jesus in vs. 2 with He speaking about the destruction of the Temple that happened in 70AD, approximately 37 years after Jesus ascended up to heaven.

In vs 4 Jesus tells His disciples to take heed that no man deceive you. Then Jesus proceeds through out this chapter to tell them the future signs of the end of the age and in vs. 29-31 what to watch for on the last day at the end of all tribulations, abominations and God's seven trumpets and vial judgments of His great and fierce wrath being poured out upon the earth, Rev 8-16. When Christ returns on the last day we are then caught up to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, final judgment is made when the books are opened, Rev 20:11-15, and we who have endured until the end will be saved from the lake of fire as we will have eternal life with the Father in the New Jerusalem.

(Matt. 23:39) says exactly that. Jesus will not be known to Israel till they are ready to receive Him. Read it. "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Until then, God has given a judicial blindness upon Israel and the 'Times of the Gentiles' are in place. (Luke 21:24) And it will be when the 'Times of the Gentiles' are done, that the blindness will be removed, and Israel will be ready to receive Christ. (Rom. 11:25)

Quantrill
 

for_his_glory

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(Matt. 23:39) says exactly that. Jesus will not be known to Israel till they are ready to receive Him. Read it. "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Until then, God has given a judicial blindness upon Israel and the 'Times of the Gentiles' are in place. (Luke 21:24) And it will be when the 'Times of the Gentiles' are done, that the blindness will be removed, and Israel will be ready to receive Christ. (Rom. 11:25)

Quantrill

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

It's the Lord's house, being the body of Christ that will say, " Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. ", Psalms 118:26

The he in these verses is Jesus who is the Blessed one who comes in the name of the Lord on the last day when God's timing is made perfect in His timing.

Rev 7:1-8 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings 12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

Galatians 3:26-29 is speaking about all that have been baptized into Christ. There are many from the generations that never will be baptized in Christ as they seek a type of Messian that will never come. The fullness of the Gentiles makes up all of Israel that will be saved. As Ephraim mixed himself up with other nations that was a foreshadowing of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel meaning all of Israel will be saved that have faith in God as being part of the covenant God made with Abraham, Genesis 12:1-3; 48:17-19; Hosea 7:8. Jesus told the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria and then to the ends of the world, Acts 1:8; 8:14-17, Samaria is the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel as both Jew and Gentiles both dwelt there, Galatians 3:28, 29.
 

Quantrill

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Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

It's the Lord's house, being the body of Christ that will say, " Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. ", Psalms 118:26

The he in these verses is Jesus who is the Blessed one who comes in the name of the Lord on the last day when God's timing is made perfect in His timing.

Rev 7:1-8 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings 12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

Galatians 3:26-29 is speaking about all that have been baptized into Christ. There are many from the generations that never will be baptized in Christ as they seek a type of Messian that will never come. The fullness of the Gentiles makes up all of Israel that will be saved. As Ephraim mixed himself up with other nations that was a foreshadowing of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel meaning all of Israel will be saved that have faith in God as being part of the covenant God made with Abraham, Genesis 12:1-3; 48:17-19; Hosea 7:8. Jesus told the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria and then to the ends of the world, Acts 1:8; 8:14-17, Samaria is the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel as both Jew and Gentiles both dwelt there, Galatians 3:28, 29.

Israel is not the 'Body of Christ'. Where did you get that?

In (Matt. 23:39) Jesus is addressing Jerusalem, Israel, who has rejected Him. The Church doesn't even exist at this time.

Quantrill

Jesus Christ
 

for_his_glory

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It means I hold to the 'Dispensational' view of Scripture.

It means consideration is given to the time and covenants and dispensations when interpreting any part of Scripture.

Dispensation speaks to a 'stewardship'. A responsibility of man toward God.

For example: Adam and Eve in the Garden. What could describe the dispensation or responsibility they were under toward God? Several things. 1.) They were without sin. 2.) They were given charge over the Garden. 3.) They could eat of any tree of the Garden except the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, of which they were commanded not to eat.

So all that occurred at that time, as written in Scripture, needs to be interpreted under those conditions. We cannot get up and preach today that God doesn't want us to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That cow is out of the barn. We are not in innocence as Adam and Eve were. We are not in paradise as Adam and Eve were.

Dispensation speaks to a stewardship, responsibility, and a time. Covenants are involved in describing the stewardship.

Quantrill

Thank you. I need to study this a little further in my spare time.
 

for_his_glory

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Israel is not the 'Body of Christ'. Where did you get that?

In (Matt. 23:39) Jesus is addressing Jerusalem, Israel, who has rejected Him. The Church doesn't even exist at this time.

Quantrill

Jesus Christ

I realize Jesus is speaking to Israel in that passage, but Galatians 3:27-29 says For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The body of Christ are all, Jew and Gentile, that have been baptized into Christ through the Spiritual rebirth that makes up the true church of Christ with He being the head of the body, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14.

Not all of Israel are counted as a member of the body of Christ as they reject the head of the body/church being Christ Jesus. We are all Israel since the time that Gentiles were also baptized into Christ and grafted into the branch with Israel. Jesus being the vine, the root of Jesse, of where the branches sprout out from has made us all one body in Christ, Romans Chapter 11.
 

Quantrill

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I realize Jesus is speaking to Israel in that passage, but Galatians 3:27-29 says For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The body of Christ are all, Jew and Gentile, that have been baptized into Christ through the Spiritual rebirth that makes up the true church of Christ with He being the head of the body, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14.

Not all of Israel are counted as a member of the body of Christ as they reject the head of the body/church being Christ Jesus. We are all Israel since the time that Gentiles were also baptized into Christ and grafted into the branch with Israel. Jesus being the vine, the root of Jesse, of where the branches sprout out from has made us all one body in Christ, Romans Chapter 11.

I understand what you are saying, but I do disagree.

Yes we are Abrahams seed and children of God by faith.

Israel had a beginning. (Ex. 19) Before that, there was no Israel.

The Church has a beginning. (Acts 2) And, yes, the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. It is a new Body of Believers, the Body of Christ. But it doesn't replace Israel. And it isn't Israel morphed into a new thing.

The Scriptures that are usually used to prove that the Church is now the true Israel or true Jews do not say that at all. They are simply describing what a true Jew or Israelite is before God. See (Rom. 2:28-29) It is not saying the Gentile now becomes a Jew when he believes.

So, it is my belief, the Dispensational view, that the Church and Israel are not the same body of believers. The Church doesn't become 'spiritual Israel'. God is not done with the nation of Israel. There will come a day when God will again begin His work with Israel that He started. That would be the start of the Tribulation period. But it will be after the Body of Christ, the Church is finished, number wise, and removed. That would be the Rapture.

Quantrill
 

for_his_glory

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I understand what you are saying, but I do disagree.

Yes we are Abrahams seed and children of God by faith.

Israel had a beginning. (Ex. 19) Before that, there was no Israel.

The Church has a beginning. (Acts 2) And, yes, the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. It is a new Body of Believers, the Body of Christ. But it doesn't replace Israel. And it isn't Israel morphed into a new thing.

The Scriptures that are usually used to prove that the Church is now the true Israel or true Jews do not say that at all. They are simply describing what a true Jew or Israelite is before God. See (Rom. 2:28-29) It is not saying the Gentile now becomes a Jew when he believes.

So, it is my belief, the Dispensational view, that the Church and Israel are not the same body of believers. The Church doesn't become 'spiritual Israel'. God is not done with the nation of Israel. There will come a day when God will again begin His work with Israel that He started. That would be the start of the Tribulation period. But it will be after the Body of Christ, the Church is finished, number wise, and removed. That would be the Rapture.

Quantrill

I never said a Gentile becomes a Jew, but that the Gentile is grafted into the branch with Israel. As you said, your belief is the Dispensation view that the Church and Israel are not the same body of believers. This is only a view without the support of scripture. Romans 2:28, 29 is about the Jews in their disobedience to the law.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.
 

JLB

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The Church has a beginning. (Acts 2) And, yes, the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. It is a new Body of Believers, the Body of Christ. But it doesn't replace Israel.

Of course the Church doesn’t replace Israel.

The Church which began with Abraham is the “Israel of God”.


JLB
 
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