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DRS81

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Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.
 

veryberry

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Muslims choose to reject Christ and continue to worship their moon god(allah). Those who chose to trust in Jesus Christ, will not be a part of that fulfillment of prophecy. The choice is theirs.
 

Edward

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Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.
What's the confusion brother? 2 Peter explains it perfectly. God is longsuffering and desires that no one perish, but repent and come to Him. While it is a free gift, it is not withour a required effort on our part. We are instructed to study and show ourselves approved, search the scriptures daily...

Not read one verse or chapter and make a doctrine of it, taking it upon ourselves to (supposedly) do the Lords work, as I believe the Muslims have done. They have no patience, have not studied and have hardened hearts as a result. Good thing for them (for us ALL!) that God is longsuffering and merciful...They have plenty of free will, but (apparently) lack relationship, and the deeper knowledge of God. God simply knows the future and wrote it down, this didn't take away their free will.
 

DRS81

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Yeah but they really don't have a choice because of their geographical location in the Bible.

Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy. Psalm 83 was written well over 2,000 years ago.
 

childeye

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What's the confusion brother? 2 Peter explains it perfectly. God is longsuffering and desires that no one perish, but repent and come to Him. While it is a free gift, it is not withour a required effort on our part. We are instructed to study and show ourselves approved, search the scriptures daily...

Not read one verse or chapter and make a doctrine of it, taking it upon ourselves to (supposedly) do the Lords work, as I believe the Muslims have done. They have no patience, have not studied and have hardened hearts as a result. Good thing for them (for us ALL!) that God is longsuffering and merciful...They have plenty of free will, but (apparently) lack relationship, and the deeper knowledge of God. God simply knows the future and wrote it down, this didn't take away their free will.
Not to get off the op, but I note that you claim they have plenty of free will yet lack the relationship with Christ that frees the will. Also you never addressed my post on this matter found in the "what's the point" thread.

The Muslims think they believe in Jesus, and he is regarded as a prophet of God but not in the same category as Mohammed. The one thing about 2 Peter 3:9, is that he does not specify whether he is referring to the church, or all of mankind when he says us-ward. He could be speaking about future Christians. For elsewhere in scripture there appears to be a certain number of Christians that must enter in.
 

Obadiah

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Yeah but they really don't have a choice because of their geographical location in the Bible.

Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy. Psalm 83 was written well over 2,000 years ago.
Are certain people born to fulfill prophesy? Or is prophesy God's telling us what will happen through his foreknowledge?
 

Edward

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Not to get off the op, but I note that you claim they have plenty of free will yet lack the relationship with Christ that frees the will. Also you never addressed my post on this matter found in the "what's the point" thread.

The Muslims think they believe in Jesus, and he is regarded as a prophet of God but not in the same category as Mohammed. The one thing about 2 Peter 3:9, is that he does not specify whether he is referring to the church, or all of mankind when he says us-ward. He could be speaking about future Christians. For elsewhere in scripture there appears to be a certain number of Christians that must enter in.
I'm not absolutely sure. I know we all have free will. I...do not know if some were born for a specific purpose. Will Judas be saved? Like Obadiah said, perhaps God just has the foreknowledge of what the individuals will do?

Oh, if I missed answering you somewhere, link me to it brother. I clear my email notifications a lot, because I get a lot of them, and sometimes the alerts are there and sometimes they go away...sometimes posts and threads get lost on me, lol.
 

YogiD2

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Seeking God imo is free to anyone. If anyone wishes he may find God. A Muslim in Iraq may do Jihad on a "infidel" but he knows there maybe from America or UK. He knows there was more than him and Allah. He had a choice. A muslim in usa or uk or living anywhere may seek god "freely" as He has asked with the Whole Heart. And people will "find" Him. We as Humans are not alone in a dark box. We found this site, as others will.. I know in Iran the is a Christian channel from europe that beams from a satalite and many have been saved and many that have gotten in "hot water". God is a prayer away. And a muslim is not the only ones need talked about. Buddist, hindu, there are some that believe in idols, there are lost "sheep".. everywhere. IMO don't just focus on one. There is one true God and Jesus is his name. Praise and glory be to the one true god
 

th1b.taylor

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Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.
The answer to your issue is grounded in the 16th verse of Psalm 83, trouble them that they might seek your face. But remember, the ancient Jew and the Islamics of the seventh century AD firmly subscribed to salvation by the Law. Traces of that theological stance are found in the recorded words of Muhammed and still have such an influence that any Islamic believer that has no part with the World Jihad is, in their eyes, a heretic.

Your 2Peter quote stands as is alluded to in verse 16 of the Psalm. god will bring them down but they, like any lost person is not condemned to Eternal Suffering for any reason other than they chose that path, the one that leads them to the Lake of Fire just like all Lost Men and Lost Women.
 

Deborah13

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Yeah but they really don't have a choice because of their geographical location in the Bible.

Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy. Psalm 83 was written well over 2,000 years ago.
I believe God uses certain men to fulfill prophecy. I believe certain people are born, into certain people, at certain times to fulfill God's plan.
But God also uses nations (people as a whole) this no way inhibits the individuals ability to receive God when they are drawn to Him. Of coarse it can be a much more dangerous proposition for some than others depending on the nation they live in.







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Ps. 83:16-18, KJV:

16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
 

DRS81

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I believe God uses certain men to fulfill prophecy. I believe certain people are born, into certain people, at certain times to fulfill God's plan.
Ok, but if God is a just and righteous judge then what is just and righteous about creating some people for destruction and others to be saved. Where is the free will in the person who was created for destruction.
 

Sinthesis

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Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.
Psalm 83 is not about Islamic nations. The Psalm lists precisely who it is about, and they are people-groups contemporary with David. Though groups, the people who may belong to them are not judged after death collectively, but as individuals, for God is not a respecter of persons, thus each individual bears the responsibility of their freewill. However, the behavior and values promoted by the people-groups are judged by God through each group's collective historic fate as an example to the world. Many Islamic people-groups have failed to learn from the historic example of Psalm 83.
 

WIP

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Ok, but if God is a just and righteous judge then what is just and righteous about creating some people for destruction and others to be saved. Where is the free will in the person who was created for destruction.
I wait for Deborah's response but I wonder if she is making a distinction between "uses" and "creates."
 

Edward

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I believe God uses certain men to fulfill prophecy. I believe certain people are born, into certain people, at certain times to fulfill God's plan.
But God also uses nations (people as a whole) this no way inhibits the individuals ability to receive God when they are drawn to Him. Of coarse it can be a much more dangerous proposition for some than others depending on the nation they live in.

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This is a curious question that I have pondered before. I absolutely believe in ultimate free will, but like you, I have read certain scriptures which suggest that some are born for purposes. Did Judas Iscariot have a choice? I think he did. What would have happened if he rejected the temptation at the last moment?

We can confidently assume that whichever it is, that it is just, for God IS a just God, whether we understand it or not. Ultimately, God has power over death, so even if one were born to die, it's not like God it means a whole lot to God, for He could raise them up again.
 

Deborah13

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Ok, but if God is a just and righteous judge then what is just and righteous about creating some people for destruction and others to be saved. Where is the free will in the person who was created for destruction.
WIP is correct. I do not believe God creates people for destruction but that is just what I believe, IF He does than it is His prerogative as the creator. He is the potter who molds vessels but I don't remember the scripture ever saying that He uses different types of clay to do that. So with Pharaoh I see that the clay was the same as the good vessel clay. When the scripture says, God raised up Pharaoh, I take that as meaning that Pharaoh was born into a family with power and because God knows a man's heart attitude He placed Pharaoh in power to fulfill a position in His overall plan of redemption.
It's trickier for me in understanding one's like Esau and Jacob. Surely of the same clay, and twins born to the same parents, in same social and economic position. Yet we see to very different people and that God's hand is so clearly seen even before birth.
So to me God is never limited in the way He works to bring about His plan.

Edward I think scripture is pretty clear that each disciples was specifically chosen by the Father and that Judas was who he was before that. So I believe that is why he was chosen to do what he did.
 

th1b.taylor

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Ps. 83:16-18, KJV:

16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
The highlighted is balanced by v.16 as well as much more scripture. Tour mistake, here, is a common one. You are pulling a verse out of it's context to form a theological point when the Bible is of one context from beginning to end. The one rule that must be observed, always, is that no verse of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it.
 

th1b.taylor

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Ok, but if God is a just and righteous judge then what is just and righteous about creating some people for destruction and others to be saved. Where is the free will in the person who was created for destruction.
God does not do that. That is the largest error of five point hypercalvinism and it is not true.
 
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Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy.
That is a raw deal. But Jesus incarnated had the raw deal as well. He knew what he had to do, and wasn't too happy about it during the garden of gethsemane.
 
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