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childeye

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Reba said He is the potter. Would it actually be unrighteous of God to predestine some vessels to hold light and and other vessels to hold darkness? I don't see a free will. I see corruption entering in through Adams sin and forgiveness and remission of sin through Christ. It could not be said God would be unjust to save some and not all, and yet call it just to save no one. Personally I hope in mercy for everyone.
 
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Reba said He is the potter. Would it actually be unrighteous of God to predestine some vessels to hold light and and other vessels to hold darkness? I don't see a free will. I see corruption entering in through Adams sin and forgiveness and remission of sin through Christ. It could not be said God would be unjust to save some and not all, and yet call it just to save no one. Personally I hope in mercy for everyone.
If a vessel is predetermined to hold darkness. What would be the grounds for that? A past family sin etc? But that would be going along the lines of reincarnation and reincarnation is a buddist concept nor christian.
 

Deborah13

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Reba said He is the potter. Would it actually be unrighteous of God to predestine some vessels to hold light and and other vessels to hold darkness? I don't see a free will. I see corruption entering in through Adams sin and forgiveness and remission of sin through Christ. It could not be said God would be unjust to save some and not all, and yet call it just to save no one. Personally I hope in mercy for everyone.
Personally I believe the heart of God is sorrowful about every person who perishes. Jesus wept over those who would be lost in Jerusalem. He took no joy in the fact that some would perish. Seeing Jesus was always of the same mind as His Father and one with the same Spirit, how could I think God is any different.
 

Sinthesis

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That is a raw deal. But Jesus incarnated had the raw deal as well. He knew what he had to do, and wasn't too happy about it during the garden of gethsemane.
No, Jesus was happy to do for us what we could not do. That is not to say He was not apprehensive given the time in the garden to anticipate the particulars of what He chose to do for us. However, a loving parent will gladly run into a burning building to save their helpless children despite the physical discomfort they know they will endure.
 

Sinthesis

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If a vessel is predetermined to hold darkness. What would be the grounds for that? A past family sin etc? But that would be going along the lines of reincarnation and reincarnation is a buddist concept nor christian.
A vessel does not have to be only an individual person, but can also be a character role in God's plan, which individuals choose to fill based on belief and action. In choosing for themselves a role destined for destruction, they seal their condemnation unless they repent and choose a new role.
 

Deborah13

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A vessel does not have to be only an individual person, but can also be a character role in God's plan, which individuals choose to fill based on belief and action. In choosing for themselves a role destined for destruction, they seal their condemnation unless they repent and choose a new role.
Now that is an interesting statement. :chin
 

childeye

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Personally I believe the heart of God is sorrowful about every person who perishes. Jesus wept over those who would be lost in Jerusalem. He took no joy in the fact that some would perish. Seeing Jesus was always of the same mind as His Father and one with the same Spirit, how could I think God is any different.
I appreciate this sentiment, and I agree with it concerning Christ. For Christ is the son of man and knows what it is to be flesh. His intercession is what I am depending upon. But he also said the flesh profits nothing, which means to me that if there is nothing redeemable in the vessel of flesh, then there is nothing there to save. It may sound cold and heartless, but in reality, what is untrue about it?
 

Deborah13

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I appreciate this sentiment, and I agree with it concerning Christ. For Christ is the son of man and knows what it is to be flesh. His intercession is what I am depending upon. But he also said the flesh profits nothing, which means to me that if there is nothing redeemable in the vessel of flesh, then there is nothing there to save. It may sound cold and heartless, but in reality, what is untrue about it?
I say that only God can see the heart of man and know if he is redeemable. So we as disciples bring the Gospel message to all men and leave the rest up to God who knows.
 

Edward

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No, Jesus was happy to do for us what we could not do. That is not to say He was not apprehensive given the time in the garden to anticipate the particulars of what He chose to do for us. However, a loving parent will gladly run into a burning building to save their helpless children despite the physical discomfort they know they will endure.
:thudI'm speechless brother. I agree with you here.
 

DRS81

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Another question. Ok, so if Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 HAS to come to pass in order for the second coming of Christ to come to pass then, God created those people in those prophecies specifically fit for destruction, no? For example, can the second coming of Christ come to pass without these two prophecies coming to pass?
 

Obadiah

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I'm finding it interesting here that my views seem to be in the minority. I didn't know that before. It always seemed to me that God had foreknowledge of what was going to happen and the prophecy in scripture was His sharing of some of that foreknowledge with us. I never before thought of it as God telling us something will happen, and then when it's time for it to happen, He has to create condemned people specifically to carry out what he said would happen. I just can't seem to see it that way.

I see it more like, in human terms, if I'm going to drive out onto the freeway of a major city at 5pm, I can predict (prophesy?) that the traffic will be heavy and slow to stopped. But I didn't create the slow traffic to make my prediction come true. I simply knew ahead of time this was going to happen. Even if I built the road and built all the cars, and even gave birth to all the drivers and gave them free will to drive as they please, I can still predict the heavy traffic and it will happen without me intervening to cause it to happen. So if I, as a mere human with only average intelligence can predict this, why couldn't God with his omniscience predict what will happen in the future without having to then specifically create condemned people to carry out what he predicted?
 
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I'm finding it interesting here that my views seem to be in the minority. I didn't know that before. It always seemed to me that God had foreknowledge of what was going to happen and the prophesy in scripture was His sharing of some of that foreknowledge with us. I never before thought of it as God telling us something will happen, and then when it's time for it to happen, He has to create condemned people specifically to carry out what he said would happen. I just can't seem to see it that way.

I see it more like, in human terms, if I'm going to drive out onto the freeway of a major city at 5pm, I can predict (prophesy?) that the traffic will be heavy and slow to stopped. But I didn't create the slow traffic to make my prediction come true. I simply knew ahead of time this was going to happen. Even if I built the road and built all the cars, and even gave birth to all the drivers and gave them free will to drive as they please, I can still predict the heavy traffic and it will happen without me intervening to cause it to happen. So if I, as a mere human with only average intelligence can predict this, why couldn't God with his omniscience predict what will happen in the future without having to then specifically create condemned people to carry out what he predicted?
Obadiah, I'm sure this will be much to your dismay, but I agree with you.

Also, I'm sure that you know the difference between 'prophecy' and 'prophesy' and merely made a typo (as we all do -- too often in my case).
 

Obadiah

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Obadiah, I'm sure this will be much to your dismay, but I agree with you.
No! Not to my dismay at all! Why would it be?

...Also, I'm sure that you know the difference between 'prophecy' and 'prophesy' and merely made a typo (as we all do -- too often in my case).
LOL! You caught that! :clap I hadn't even noticed it because, of course, it didn't get a red underline and I didn't proofread close enough. Changed it now.
 

Edward

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I'm finding it interesting here that my views seem to be in the minority. I didn't know that before. It always seemed to me that God had foreknowledge of what was going to happen and the prophecy in scripture was His sharing of some of that foreknowledge with us. I never before thought of it as God telling us something will happen, and then when it's time for it to happen, He has to create condemned people specifically to carry out what he said would happen. I just can't seem to see it that way.

I see it more like, in human terms, if I'm going to drive out onto the freeway of a major city at 5pm, I can predict (prophesy?) that the traffic will be heavy and slow to stopped. But I didn't create the slow traffic to make my prediction come true. I simply knew ahead of time this was going to happen. Even if I built the road and built all the cars, and even gave birth to all the drivers and gave them free will to drive as they please, I can still predict the heavy traffic and it will happen without me intervening to cause it to happen. So if I, as a mere human with only average intelligence can predict this, why couldn't God with his omniscience predict what will happen in the future without having to then specifically create condemned people to carry out what he predicted?
That makes perfect sense to me brother. Your view, in no way would contradict any scripture that I'm aware of either. I do believe that you've hit on it.

That you're in the minority may just be a flag of indication of the truth also, lol.
I know that I'm in the minority on many things here. But, in order for us to learn, sometimes we have to push the edge of the envelope, clinging to the realization that we are not to lean upon our own understanding, and actually setting it aside, along with our pre-suppositions, however plausible they may have been presented to us in our past.

Yeah. Bravo brother. Your view pings of truth to me.
 

follower

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Reba said He is the potter. Would it actually be unrighteous of God to predestine some vessels to hold light and and other vessels to hold darkness? I don't see a free will. I see corruption entering in through Adams sin and forgiveness and remission of sin through Christ. It could not be said God would be unjust to save some and not all, and yet call it just to save no one. Personally I hope in mercy for everyone.
i think in the old testament , and in the new testament -up to a point , God's mercy was shown over and over to His people.

then, as it looks like in Revelation, maybe Daniel and Ezekiel, when God's Judgment is executed finally, it is not mixed with mercy (at the end, the last days of earth).... because in previous times, God saved a remnant of His people most of the time , if not all the time -- people could and did repent. but in Revelation somewhere, doesn't it say that even when 1/3 of mankind is dead, the rest of the people don't repent ? not because God wasn't willing to forgive them, but because they chose all their life not to turn to Him... ... like somewhere it is written that they loved the darkness instead of the Light(Jesus)? this is just in general, not something specific - but i don't see people in the book of Revelation turning to God when the fierce troubles start and continue to the end.... does anyone see people in the Bible repenting in the end days ?
 

childeye

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If a vessel is predetermined to hold darkness. What would be the grounds for that? A past family sin etc?
The problem with answering this question are the semantics involved. If say mankind knew not the value of God in relation to mankind, then darkness would be predetermined accordingly.
But that would be going along the lines of reincarnation and reincarnation is a buddist concept nor christian.
I don't see what you are getting at with this. How is reincarnation involved?
 

childeye

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i think in the old testament , and in the new testament -up to a point , God's mercy was shown over and over to His people.

then, as it looks like in Revelation, maybe Daniel and Ezekiel, when God's Judgment is executed finally, it is not mixed with mercy (at the end, the last days of earth).... because in previous times, God saved a remnant of His people most of the time , if not all the time -- people could and did repent. but in Revelation somewhere, doesn't it say that even when 1/3 of mankind is dead, the rest of the people don't repent ? not because God wasn't willing to forgive them, but because they chose all their life not to turn to Him... ... like somewhere it is written that they loved the darkness instead of the Light(Jesus)? this is just in general, not something specific - but i don't see people in the book of Revelation turning to God when the fierce troubles start and continue to the end.... does anyone see people in the Bible repenting in the end days ?
Jesus spoke of the door being closed after a certain time and if you knock after that time he will simply say, I don't know you. I don't think repentance has anything to do with this. When I say I hope in mercy for all, it is after the end of time. That those who loved darkness will be condemned as such, but that God may yet have mercy upon them, in some manner or form. I of course don't know this for certain. I just feel it is not implausible.
 
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childeye

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I'm finding it interesting here that my views seem to be in the minority. I didn't know that before. It always seemed to me that God had foreknowledge of what was going to happen and the prophecy in scripture was His sharing of some of that foreknowledge with us. I never before thought of it as God telling us something will happen, and then when it's time for it to happen, He has to create condemned people specifically to carry out what he said would happen. I just can't seem to see it that way.

I see it more like, in human terms, if I'm going to drive out onto the freeway of a major city at 5pm, I can predict (prophesy?) that the traffic will be heavy and slow to stopped. But I didn't create the slow traffic to make my prediction come true. I simply knew ahead of time this was going to happen. Even if I built the road and built all the cars, and even gave birth to all the drivers and gave them free will to drive as they please, I can still predict the heavy traffic and it will happen without me intervening to cause it to happen. So if I, as a mere human with only average intelligence can predict this, why couldn't God with his omniscience predict what will happen in the future without having to then specifically create condemned people to carry out what he predicted?
Jesus said a bird cannot fall out of the sky apart from the will of God. That every hair on your head is numbered. It seems that there is nothing happening that God hasn't foreseen. So what is the difference between making a free choice and God sifting? What is the difference between judging and projecting?
 

childeye

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I say that only God can see the heart of man and know if he is redeemable. So we as disciples bring the Gospel message to all men and leave the rest up to God who knows.
Sounds like a safe assessment to me. The parable of the net. The parable of the tares.
 

DRS81

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Deut 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
Prov 16:4 The LORD works out everything to its proper end-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
 
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