I need help with a question

[Deborah13]

I'm finding it interesting here that my views seem to be in the minority. I didn't know that before. It always seemed to me that God had foreknowledge of what was going to happen and the prophecy in scripture was His sharing of some of that foreknowledge with us. I never before thought of it as God telling us something will happen, and then when it's time for it to happen, He has to create condemned people specifically to carry out what he said would happen. I just can't seem to see it that way.

I see it more like, in human terms, if I'm going to drive out onto the freeway of a major city at 5pm, I can predict (prophesy?) that the traffic will be heavy and slow to stopped. But I didn't create the slow traffic to make my prediction come true. I simply knew ahead of time this was going to happen. Even if I built the road and built all the cars, and even gave birth to all the drivers and gave them free will to drive as they please, I can still predict the heavy traffic and it will happen without me intervening to cause it to happen. So if I, as a mere human with only average intelligence can predict this, why couldn't God with his omniscience predict what will happen in the future without having to then specifically create condemned people to carry out what he predicted?

Obadiah, I do not believe God creates condemned people.
God created Adam and Eve and said His creation was good, and told them to be fruitful and multiply. He created them in His own image. God does not create anything that is not good.
Because of the fall we are ALL born into condemnation. Ranchers have a saying about sheep that,
"they are born looking for a place to die." That reminds me of people, we are born weak and stupid. Therefore, we need a loving shepard to watch over us.

26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
If we take that bird and lock it up in a cage does the Father feed them? Nope, if we don't they die.
The Father provided for them in their natural habitat. He created the plants, bugs, and worms the little birds eat. And all these things He created to reproduce themselves so that they keep providing for the birds.

So all things are the product of God's original creation. He planned before the foundations of the earth all of creation, of how it would work, He set it in motion.
Am I saying that God is just sitting back from that time forward? No, not at all. He works in the lives of people both the saved and the unsaved. He uses people to fulfill the things that He has planned.
Moses and God spoke together, Moses appealed to God. God repented (changed His mind).
Did God know all these things with Moses would happen, I think He did. Did He plan and make all of them happen, I don't really know.
When the word says, the fervent prayer avails much. How can that be true if God has already planned every little thing out and made it happen. Does God force a man to pray fervently? Or does He tell us to do that and if we do He responds to those prayers? I think He responds to those prayers.
Did God make the Israelites burn their children in the sacrificial fires to Molech/Baal. Absolutely not.
Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

Did God know they would do this? I think He did because He is God. But I don't think He planned it and I don't think He made them do it.

 

[Obadiah]

...So what is the difference between making a free choice and God sifting? What is the difference between judging and projecting?

What is "God sifting"? There's a huge difference between the words "judging" and "projecting", but I never said anything about judging anyone.

 

[Obadiah]

Obadiah, I do not believe God creates condemned people.
God created Adam and Eve and said His creation was good, and told them to be fruitful and multiply. He created them in His own image. God does not create anything that is not good.
Because of the fall we are ALL born into condemnation. Ranchers have a saying about sheep that,
"they are born looking for a place to die." That reminds me of people, we are born weak and stupid. Therefore, we need a loving shepard to watch over us.

26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
If we take that bird and lock it up in a cage does the Father feed them? Nope, if we don't they die.
The Father provided for them in their natural habitat. He created the plants, bugs, and worms the little birds eat. And all these things He created to reproduce themselves so that they keep providing for the birds.

So all things are the product of God's original creation. He planned before the foundations of the earth all of creation, of how it would work, He set it in motion.
Am I saying that God is just sitting back from that time forward? No, not at all. He works in the lives of people both the saved and the unsaved. He uses people to fulfill the things that He has planned.
Moses and God spoke together, Moses appealed to God. God repented (changed His mind).
Did God know all these things with Moses would happen, I think He did. Did He plan and make all of them happen, I don't really know.
When the word says, the fervent prayer avails much. How can that be true if God has already planned every little thing out and made it happen. Does God force a man to pray fervently? Or does He tell us to do that and if we do He responds to those prayers? I think He responds to those prayers.
Did God make the Israelites burn their children in the sacrificial fires to Molech/Baal. Absolutely not.
Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

Did God know they would do this? I think He did because He is God. But I don't think He planned it and I don't think He made them do it.

Sounds right to me!

 

[childeye]

What is "God sifting"? There's a huge difference between the words "judging" and "projecting", but I never said anything about judging anyone.

I didn't do a good job of getting my point across. Scripture says God is sifting the wheat from the chaff, the edible part from the inedible part, but which both come from a single component, and both serve a necessary function.

When a person judges or "chooses", he is projecting who he is by how he judges. Because when the Truth is sent into the world, each man is judged according to what each man sees. Let me say that again. Every man judges the Truth that is sent by God into the world. And according to each man's judgment they are judged because they are projecting who they are through their judgment of the Truth. Hence Jesus says, now judgment has come into the world and now the prince of this world is cast out. Also, blessed is he that finds no offense in me. Hence judging is projecting.

 

[childeye]

Obadiah, I do not believe God creates condemned people.
God created Adam and Eve and said His creation was good, and told them to be fruitful and multiply. He created them in His own image. God does not create anything that is not good.
Because of the fall we are ALL born into condemnation. Ranchers have a saying about sheep that,
"they are born looking for a place to die." That reminds me of people, we are born weak and stupid. Therefore, we need a loving shepard to watch over us.

26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
If we take that bird and lock it up in a cage does the Father feed them? Nope, if we don't they die.
The Father provided for them in their natural habitat. He created the plants, bugs, and worms the little birds eat. And all these things He created to reproduce themselves so that they keep providing for the birds.

So all things are the product of God's original creation. He planned before the foundations of the earth all of creation, of how it would work, He set it in motion.
Am I saying that God is just sitting back from that time forward? No, not at all. He works in the lives of people both the saved and the unsaved. He uses people to fulfill the things that He has planned.
Moses and God spoke together, Moses appealed to God. God repented (changed His mind).
Did God know all these things with Moses would happen, I think He did. Did He plan and make all of them happen, I don't really know.
When the word says, the fervent prayer avails much. How can that be true if God has already planned every little thing out and made it happen. Does God force a man to pray fervently? Or does He tell us to do that and if we do He responds to those prayers? I think He responds to those prayers.
Did God make the Israelites burn their children in the sacrificial fires to Molech/Baal. Absolutely not.
Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

Did God know they would do this? I think He did because He is God. But I don't think He planned it and I don't think He made them do it.

I liked your post. It made me think of this:
John 9:2-3King James Version (KJV)
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

A vessel does not have to be only an individual person, but can also be a character role in God's plan, which individuals choose to fill based on belief and action. In choosing for themselves a role destined for destruction, they seal their condemnation unless they repent and choose a new role.

Thats an interesting idea but goes against the concept of "it is written"

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

 

[BigSodaExposer]

No, Jesus was happy to do for us what we could not do. That is not to say He was not apprehensive given the time in the garden to anticipate the particulars of what He chose to do for us. However, a loving parent will gladly run into a burning building to save their helpless children despite the physical discomfort they know they will endure.

Mathew 26:39 "
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

I agree with you but the point I was making was for a moment the reality of the situation got to him. He was very sad, and he was so tore up emotionally by the reality that God sent an Angel to comfort him.

Luke 22:41-43 "
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him"

 

[Sinthesis]

Thats an interesting idea but goes against the concept of "it is written"

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

God's plan required the role of betrayer, but not who would fill it. Judas chose the role oblivious to how it would play out.

 

[jonahmano]

God's plan required the role of betrayer, but not who would fill it. Judas chose the role oblivious to how it would play out.

Judas was another lukewarm guy. Neither he believed in Jesus nor he walked out of Jesus' ministry.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

A vessel does not have to be only an individual person, but can also be a character role in God's plan, which individuals choose to fill based on belief and action. In choosing for themselves a role destined for destruction, they seal their condemnation unless they repent and choose a new role.

What sin did Judas Iscariot commit when Jesus put the sop in his mouth and Satan entered him? He did not steal the sop as Christ gave it to him freely.

You hear of twice that Satan entered Judas. The first time was when he went scheming to the high priest (iniquity), then at the last supper when Christ placed the sop in his mouth. And he then went out to enact his plan and do the transgression.

The point is, you act like ALL have a choice, and that clearly is not the case. Paul was chosen for his role, I guess Judas was as well.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

God's plan required the role of betrayer, but not who would fill it. Judas chose the role oblivious to how it would play out.

Thats sort of like being righteous by faith and not works then. I picture Abraham as this troubled man who would shrug his shoulders looking to the sky asking "Is this not what you want God?" He BELIEVED he was doing what God wanted and his faith was counted for righteousness.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Jesus said a bird cannot fall out of the sky apart from the will of God. That every hair on your head is numbered. It seems that there is nothing happening that God hasn't foreseen. So what is the difference between making a free choice and God sifting? What is the difference between judging and projecting?

That implies the illusion of free will. It reminds of those amusement park rides for kids, the cars on a tract that can only go so far out left or right. That reminds me of this life. No man can break the world. (though there are many Liberals who say otherwise concerning climate change). Jesus said you can't by thought make one hair black and one white, or by thought no one can add one cubit of height to their stature.

 

[childeye]

That implies the illusion of free will. It reminds of those amusement park rides for kids, the cars on a tract that can only go so far out left or right. That reminds me of this life. No man can break the world. (though there are many Liberals who say otherwise concerning climate change). Jesus said you can't by thought make one hair black and one white, or by thought no one can add one cubit of height to their stature.

I was addressing semantics. Free will is in my view a term that carries ambiguity in it's inferences, since it doesn't reference a single point that identifies what the will is free from. Instead it references many points, even points contrary and opposed to each other in perspective. As such many people use the term free will to convey an overtone of culpability that I find to be hypocritical and contradictory in any sound reasoning.

 

[Sinthesis]

What sin did Judas Iscariot commit when Jesus put the sop in his mouth and Satan entered him? He did not steal the sop as Christ gave it to him freely.

You hear of twice that Satan entered Judas. The first time was when he went scheming to the high priest (iniquity), then at the last supper when Christ placed the sop in his mouth. And he then went out to enact his plan and do the transgression.

The point is, you act like ALL have a choice, and that clearly is not the case. Paul was chosen for his role, I guess Judas was as well.

Jesus was identifying Judas as the betrayer in their midst with the sop. Jesus was not choosing Judas for the betrayal. Both Paul and Judas could have chosen to let another take the cup of their respective rolls, but neither did because of their chosen conviction that they were doing what God wanted. Judas was wrong, while Saul was wrong, but then as Paul he was right.

 

[Obadiah]

Since you guys have resurrected this old thread I need to point out that we now have new rules for the A&T forum that are spelled out here for you to review. Among them is a requirement that posts stating a position or opposition to a position must be based on scripture and must cite the specific verse(s) they are based on. Please consider this a direct instruction to everyone responding to this thread. Thank you.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

(Post deleted, ToS 1.3, 2.14 "If a member disagrees with a Moderator's action, they are not to take their dispute public. Obadiah.)

 

[TimothyW]

Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.

Psalm 83 doesn't say anyone goes to hell. It says "Yea, let them be put to shame, and perish".
Psalm 83:17 KJV

So 2 Peter 3:9 makes perfect sense:
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 ESV

It is not the Lord's will that they perish, but if they reject God who is able to give them eternal life, then they will perish. It is God's will that they should reach repentance but if they refuse to repent, God will not over-ride their free will. That wouldn't be true repentance, that would make them automatons.

 

[childeye]

It is God's will that they should reach repentance but if they refuse to repent, God will not over-ride their free will. That wouldn't be true repentance, that would make them automatons.

There is no true repentance that comes from a freewill unless you mean a will set free by the Truth. I would therefore like to comment about the term free-will. Free from what? I once had a person preaching the Gospel to me and I told her that I don't believe we have free wills. She looked at me as if I were a servant of Satan and said, "my Pastor teaches us that it was Satan who told us we don't have free wills". I said that I would probably not disagree with your Pastor, since Satan was implying something to that effect, with the assertion that if we ate of the tree of knowledge, then we could choose for ourselves between good and evil and we would not need God to tell us what to do.

The fact is, free-will is an ambiguous term, an equivocation. Oh, I know I have freedom of action since I can move my finger at will. But to have this ability is not uncommon in God's creatures. No, this free-will that we speak of in theology is a moral issue of choosing between good and evil. And as that is the case, I don't believe any choice to do good is made apart from God Who is the Eternal Spirit of Love and it is His attributes in us that makes up what we call Godliness in mankind. Romans 1:20-21.

The reason why there are children of God and children of the devil in scripture, is because the children carry within their minds and hearts the same characteristics of their Father, the same reasoning serving the same desires based on one's imagery of God. John 8:41-48. Therefore there is no free-will that is free from God's Truth, unless you wish to count ignorance or being deceived a freewill. Freewill implies self determination, self governing, the ability to chart one's own course apart from God or fate. But as we know the knowledge of good and evil only brought death, which is our fate apart from God's salvation. Genesis 2:17. As I said, as pertains to Godliness, freewill is an ambiguous term, an equivocation.

 

[TimothyW]

Having Free Will means being able to make a decision freely without coercion. We are free to accept God or reject God. It is not ambiguous at all.

Here is the dictionary definition of free-will:

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

 

[Brother Mike]

Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.

Reading Psalm 83, Muslim is not mentioned, but a whole lot of cities that were against Israel at the time are mentioned. There is no Mention of those cities having to go to hell.

No mention of God saying he was going to slam them.

So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
(Psa 83:15)

There is a request to God to slam them, and normally the case for those that went against God's people.

I don't see any prophecy here to be fulfilled, I don't see Islam though I am sure there are many descendants from those towns mentioned. I don't see where nobody can repent.