I need help with a question

[childeye]

Having Free Will means being able to make a decision freely without coercion. We are free to accept God or reject God. It is not ambiguous at all.

Here is the dictionary definition of free-will:

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Respectfully, you claim no ambiguity by simply asserting that we are free to accept or reject God. You do not attempt to prove there are no other powers either restraining or compelling the decision. But why do some believe and others reject? Romans 16:25. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

Thank you for posting this definition. The definition you provide uses the word 'acting' which brings to mind some sort of action. Other dictionaries expressly say freedom of action. As I said in my earlier post, I do not contest that I can move my finger or not at will. It is unclear that this definition could be applied to being persuaded by the Truth of God as a freely made action of man. I testify honestly that I believed because I was persuaded by the revelation contained in the Gospel of grace. For once I saw the Light of God I saw that what I thought was Light was in fact darkness. The Gospel is therefore a power outside of men's discretion according to scripture and the Truth is not impotent so as to be unable to change the character of a man along with his moral decisions. 2 Corinthians 4:6,1 John 3:8-9. Nor does this definition qualify faith or unfaith, nor the Love towards God as the products of a man's free discretion. Romans 10:17. Romans 10:19-20. James 2:5.


I would point out that the decision to accept Jesus as Lord and savior is not made without the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3. John 6:44. John 6:45. John 8:39-44.
Also, the claim that a person will die in their sins unless they believe in Jesus as the Christ is a form of coercion. If one is told that to reject God means you will suffer the second death, is also a from of coercion. John 8:24. Please note that this is not why I believe however.

Also, the choice to accept Jesus is by fate according to scripture, since the promise was made to Abraham that God would save many according to God's grace through faith and not by the will of men. Romans 4:16. John 1:12-13. Romans 8:29. Ephesians 2:8.
Finally, there are no scriptures that show men having free wills as pertains to morality. There are higher powers of Light and dark, Truth and lies, life and death. We are servants to whom we obey, and to obey we must be taking orders from a master, even if that master says we are free to disobey God and live. Romans 6:17-18. John 8:32. Ephesians 6:12.

 

[TimothyW]

A person is still free to accept Christ or reject him.
When Jesus said "you shall die in your sins", it was not coercion. A person is still free to believe or disbelieve.
They have more facts to make an intelligent decision after he told them what would happen, but nobody was forced in either direction.

Abraham could have had faith in God or he could have rejected God, therefore he has free will.

 

[Brother Mike]

A person is still free to accept Christ or reject him.
When Jesus said "you shall die in your sins", it was not coercion. A person is still free to believe or disbelieve.

According to some, they can't tell the difference between God and Satan. They think both take people captive against their wills. I also have ocean front property in IL i would like to sell them.

Blessings.

 

[childeye]

A person is still free to accept Christ or reject him.

This is just an assertion. Can you right now reject Christ?

When Jesus said "you shall die in your sins", it was not coercion. A person is still free to believe or disbelieve.
They have more facts to make an intelligent decision after he told them what would happen, but nobody was forced in either direction.

But this is precisely what I mean by the term freewill being ambiguous. Is Love the force for good? Knowing the facts about God's Character and why we die apart from Him makes all the difference in seeing our need to be obedient. There is a Truth established by God that when served, serves all men. To reject it is to hurt one's own self. Is a man's will free without knowledge of this Truth, or is man's will subject to ignorance and knowledge of this Truth? Does Love restrain a person from hurting others and compel us to treat others as ourselves? Is the will free from Love?

Is God trustworthy one day and not trustworthy the next according to a freewill choice? No. The fact is only one is true and the other is a lie, He is either trustworthy or He is not, they can't both be true. Knowing Him does not allow one to even consider that God is not trustworthy, but rather causes one to Love Him with all their heart mind and soul because of Who He is as a Person. Moreover, any true praise or true worship is drawn out by the object of worship, and therefore does not proceed from the discretion of the true and sincere worshipper. If worship happened because of one's discretion to do so according to their freewill, then such worship would be insincere and tantamount to butt-kissing. Conversely, if one is deceived into thinking God is a tyrant as per the incident in the Garden of Eden, it cannot be said that they chose freely to believe God was a liar and a tyrant when such a choice was predicated upon disinformation prepared by the most cunning of creatures, and presented in subtlety to the gullible and innocent.

Abraham could have had faith in God or he could have rejected God, therefore he has free will.

This is another assertion. It is not established anywhere in scripture that Abraham could have rejected God. He was commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac, and because Abraham was obedient and trusted God, God said this in Genesis 22:12, "for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me".... Now If Abraham had a freewill and could reject God at any time he so chooses, God would have to ask this of him everyday of his life to see if he would ever change his mind. Faith in God is not a choice, it's a conviction that there is something Holy and pure and it is only seen and believed upon by the pure of heart. Titus 1:15. Matthew 13:23.

 

[TimothyW]

This is just an assertion. Can you right now reject Christ?

Yes, if I wanted to. I don't want to. Why would I want to reject Christ?
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”

 

[childeye]

Yes, if I wanted to. I don't want to. Why would I want to reject Christ?
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”

But my point is that the term freewill is ambiguous and you are only furthering my honest assessment with this statement. For this is what I have been saying all along, that of course you don't want to, because your will is not free to not want to. The obvious result being that you cannot choose to not believe. Why? Because you cannot fathom a reason why you would rather not believe, as per your testimony.

You are proving my points with your own words. For I cannot fathom a reason why I would not want to believe that at the highest seat of Power exists such a beautiful and awesome Love as seen on the cross. Consequently, my forthright and honest testimony is that the revelation of God moves me and I am forced to believe. I cannot honestly claim I can choose to do otherwise, and therefore I did not simply choose to believe simply because my will is free not to believe. But rather I am convinced and have obtained conviction because of the Truth. And even more than that, I rejoice with all my heart and mind and soul to have heard the Good News. Therefore I must submit to it as there is no other viable course, there is no other viable choice, even as there is only One True God. The ugly sickening lies have no power over the beautiful and healing Truth of God. And therefore the twelve responded, "where would we go, for you have the words of Life".

Moreover, I am not glorying in my choice as though I am responsible and should be credited because I chose to believe. But rather it is unto God's glory according to His grace and mercy, even so that I would not glory in myself even as it is He Who removed my ignorance and healed my blindness. This is how God destroys the vanity which is the very reason we are in our predicament wherein we need salvation.

 

[TimothyW]

Jesus asked the Twelve "Do you want to go away as well?" John 6:67
He would not have asked if they wanted to go away if they did not have free will.

 

[childeye]

Jesus asked the Twelve "Do you want to go away as well?" John 6:67
He would not have asked if they wanted to go away if they did not have free will.

Respectfully, this is another assertion based on freewill being an equivocation. If I may point out, if Christ had never asked the twelve if they wanted to go away this would not disprove freewill. Your statement above is implying that Jesus didn't know whether they would stay or not, which is like asking if God knows what a person will do before they do it. But of course Christ knew they would not leave him, just as Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times and that Judas would betray him. John 6:64-70,
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Please note that in verse 70, Jesus seems to be saying that he chose them and they did not choose him.

One last point I wish to make. The term 'will' all by it's self means the ability to choose.

 

[TimothyW]

Okay,
I've said I that I want to say on this topic.

May God bless you.

 

[childeye]

According to some, they can't tell the difference between God and Satan. They think both take people captive against their wills.

Blessings.

This is an issue of semantics. On man's freedom is anothe man's slavery depending upon one's image of God. There is a Satanic image and the Christ Image.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well, one who parties all night, sleeps with who the want would think of the Christ image as some bondage, and stupid person not enlightened, needing to cling onto some old religion.

The difference is the person who was stupid and was clinging to that old religion had a choice.
The one sleeping around who's father is the devil, taken captive and blinded by the god of this World can't see their choice.

 

[childeye]

Well, one who parties all night, sleeps with who the want would think of the Christ image as some bondage, and stupid person not enlightened, needing to cling onto some old religion.

The difference is the person who was stupid and was clinging to that old religion had a choice.
The one sleeping around who's father is the devil, taken captive and blinded by the god of this World can't see their choice.

I see where you're coming from, although I would have worded it differently. And since it is a semantic issue, the term choice carries two primary meanings, option and decision. One is applicable to the will and the other to the circumstances. Hence the equivocation of the term freewill causes a person to conflate one with the other as the mind reasons, that because an option is present then the will is free. The problem with that, is that there is only One True God, and consequently the only Truly free will knows Who God is in Truth, and seeks no option so as to establish a freewill. This is only one example of the effects of the ambiguity contained in the term freewill.

 

[Brother Mike]

Free will would then establish which yoke to take. It does become a paradox in a way.

Jesus Yoke is light.
Devils yoke is not. (Isa 10:27)

If free will chooses not the light yoke all the time, then the default is to obey the other yoke.

So freewill would not determine if it has a yoke or not.

 

[childeye]

Free will would then establish which yoke to take. It does become a paradox in a way.

I identified two free wills, one ruled by Truth and one by lies which usurp from theTruth. I cannot be certain which will you are talking about when you say free will would establish which yoke to take. Free from what? The term is ambiguous when predicated on there being an option. Therefore I surmise we are either ruled by Truth or lies to begin with so as to draw a distinction. At any rate no sane person could call a person ruled by lies free in their will.

Jesus Yoke is light.
Devils yoke is not. (Isa 10:27)

To have knowledge as to why one is a light yoke and why one is not, would arguably force the decision. Hence the knowledge of God is a power that can move the will and more importantly establish it's countenance. This makes the term 'God' a power that rules in the heart and minds of His people, including any false god.

If free will chooses not the light yoke all the time, then the default is to obey the other yoke.

Which is why the term freewill is an equivocation.

So freewill would not determine if it has a yoke or not.

This is why I ask free of what, and also why I point out that the term 'will' already contains the ability to choose. We choose according to our knowledge and ignorance of Truth, and only then because we must choose. The circumstance of having to choose however cannot identify the will as free since it is choosing which way lies freedom. This is all semantic confusion. John 8:31-36.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said,“If you hold to my teaching,you are really my disciples.32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendantsand have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied,“Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.36 So if the Son sets you free,you will be free indeed.

 

[Brother Mike]

This is why I ask free of what, and also why I point out that the term 'will' already contains the ability to choose. We choose according to our knowledge and ignorance of Truth, and only then because we must choose. The circumstance of having to choose however cannot identify the will as free since it is choosing which way lies freedom. This is all semantic confusion. John 8:31-36.

Then speaking about free will is at best confusing then. I don't want to agree, but ......

If there was someone unsaved, blinded, and I ask God to open the eyes of their understanding that they many know what is the hope of his Calling......... And God does.

Then it was not their freewill or their intelligence that figured anything out.
In fact, does anyone get saved if one of us does not pray, or preach?
How can you have freewill in something you don't see, though it's there?

if the person chooses Jesus, is that freewill or is it the best option that makes the most logical sense once they know that is also a choice?

how can it make logical sense though unless God revealed it to them, when we prayed for them?

wow. The term freewill is not as simple as it may seem.

 

[childeye]

Then speaking about free will is at best confusing then. I don't want to agree, but ......

It is a term with semantic confusion because it is an equivocation. For example, let's say you don't want to admit it but...why? Because the term is meant to promote personal responsibility for your actions, and you don't want to say there is no freewill because that's like saying the devil made me do it or we're just robots and that sounds like you're dodging responsibility. I understand that. But here's the problem, there is nothing wrong and nor are you a robot if you were to say God is responsible for causing me to believe the Gospel. Romans 6:17. Ephesians 2:8. Matthew 3:9. Nor is it wrong to admit being deceived by sin. Romans 7:11.

Moreover if you take personal blame for your sinful actions then you must also blame others personally for theirs. But if one sins because they are blind, then it was not as if they knew what they were doing. If you blame others for their sin as intentional and without any blindness, then according to your own judgment you condemn yourself. John 9:41. Matthew 7:2. Romans 2:1. Luke 23:34.

So ironically it would be irresponsible to hold someone responsible for being blind which freewill believers do even as they do not see because they are counting the will that sins as free. Matthew 9:11-1 2. And it is also ironic that freewill will never cause someone to act responsibly since it is Love/empathy that causes a person to care about how our actions affect others, not the ability to choose. And God who is Love gets the Glory. Mark 10:18. 1 John 4:8.

 

[Malachi]

Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.

No Muslim is automatically condemned to Hell. The Koran mentions Jesus the Son of Mary multiple times. While Muslims generally do not have free access to the Bible in their own countries, those who live in other lands where the Bible is freely available can access it and read for themselves whether the description of Jesus in the Koran is accurate or distorted. They can then put their faith in Christ through the true Gospel. At the present, there have been many reported incidents of Muslims being confronted by Christ Himself and being saved. So Muslims have not been abandoned by God in the least. Each and every sinner has at least one opportunity to hear the truth and be saved.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus asked the Twelve "Do you want to go away as well?" John 6:67
He would not have asked if they wanted to go away if they did not have free will.

Tim,

I don't find free will difficult to understand. It is the ability of contrary choice. We see an example of this is Joshua 24:14-15 (ESV) and Joshua 24:21-24 (ESV):

14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 He said, “Then put away the foreign gods that are among you, and incline your heart to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “The Lord our God we will serve, and his voice we will obey.”​

Here we have ample example that it is possible to choose for or against the Lord.

Oz

​

 

[OzSpen]

Each and every sinner has at least one opportunity to hear the truth and be saved.

Please tell me how that is possible for the180 million people speaking 1,860 languages of the world who do not even have one book of the Bible translated (SIL statistics)?

Oz

 

[childeye]

Tim,

I don't find free will difficult to understand. It is the ability of contrary choice. We see an example of this is Joshua 24:14-15 (ESV) and Joshua 24:21-24 (ESV):

14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 He said, “Then put away the foreign gods that are among you, and incline your heart to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “The Lord our God we will serve, and his voice we will obey.”​

Here we have ample example that it is possible to choose for or against the Lord.

Oz

​

Oz. No one is saying it is impossible to choose for or against the Lord. As a matter of circumstance it is impossible to not choose for or against the Lord. Therefore what we are discussing is how the term freewill is an equivocation. To elaborate, freewill to you means the ability to choose one way or the other. But in all dictionaries it means the ability to choose apart from any restraining powers such as Coercion, Fate, or God. So with that in mind, simply showing where someone made a choice to either choose for or against God in scripture is not evidence of freewill. One must show that there are no powers of darkness restraining a person from choosing God, and no powers of Light restraining a person from choosing to reject God. And according to scripture, that definition of freewill does not exist. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

To make this more simple, I would frame the issue as the choice being dependent upon whether the person believes God is good, or God is evil. That will predetermine whether a person chooses for or against God. Just as Joshua says, 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve.