If all sin is of the devil...

[Stormcrow]

{10} And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (NASB)

And the devil is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20, how is it that sin is seen outside the walls of "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21 and 22?


{27} and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27 (NASB)


{15} Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. Revelation 22:15 (NASB)

 

[smaller]

{10} And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (NASB)

And the devil is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20, how is it that sin is seen outside the walls of "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21 and 22?


{27} and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27 (NASB)


{15} Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. Revelation 22:15 (NASB)

Obviously in the Lake.

 

[Stormcrow]

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6 (NASB)

17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. Luke 10:17-18 (NASB)

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Revelation 12:9 (NASB)

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10 (NASB)

"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." Revelation 12:12 (NASB)

The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Romans 16:20 (NASB)

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Hebrews 2:14-16 (NASB)

Satan went from having free access to God in heaven (Job), to being cast down to the earth with His angels (Luke, Revelation), to being rendered powerless by the cross (Hebrews), to being "crushed under the feet" of the Roman church (Romans), to being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation).

The gospel - aside from offering salvation - sets the believer free from the works of Satan, who no longer holds power over us. Therefore, the question still stands: if Satan has been cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20, why is sin still seen to exist in Revelation 21 and 22, events which come after Satan is utterly defeated by Christ?

 

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Satan went from having free access to God in heaven (Job), to being cast down to the earth with His angels (Luke, Revelation), to being rendered powerless by the cross (Hebrews), to being "crushed under the feet" of the Roman church (Romans), to being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation).

Your presentation is that Satan after the cross was no longer active. That position is easily proven false from an abundance of N.T. scriptures.

The gospel - aside from offering salvation - sets the believer free from the works of Satan, who no longer holds power over us.

You are also welcome to say believers are not subject to temptation of the tempter. That too is a false position. You are also welcome to say that believers no longer sin and that any such sin is not of the devil. That too is a false declaration, unless one eliminates vast segments of N.T. scriptures, which of course is not logically or reasonably possible.

Therefore, the question still stands: if Satan has been cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20, why is sin still seen to exist in Revelation 21 and 22, events which come after Satan is utterly defeated by Christ?

It didn't happen. Jesus came not only to utterly destroy the devil and his messengers, which has not yet transpired, He also came to destroy the works of the devil, which is sin.

You are welcome to claim that sin is not a work of the devil and that the devil is no longer functional.

That position is not credible to the scriptures.

s

 

[reba]

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
How does this verse fit into the thinking of both of you?
And how is this topic "end times"?

 

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Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
How does this verse fit into the thinking of both of you?

What is your position on the existence of the devil Reba? Currently operating or not?

And how is this topic "end times"?

The end times are exactly about the final destruction of Satan and his messengers. It is a large portion of our HOPE.

s

 

[reba]

You are welcome to claim that sin is not a work of the devil and that the devil is no longer functional.

I am curious. Is the above what Storm thinks?

I think what we have sense the Cross is when we are in Christ we are free from sin wages.

 

[Stormcrow]

Your presentation is that Satan after the cross was no longer active.

No, I wrote - according to the writers of the NT - he was rendered powerless, until thrown into the lake of fire, not "inactive."

Given that the rest of your reply responds to an inaccurate portrayal of what I've written, I won't even bother responding to it.

 

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I am curious. Is the above what Storm thinks?

Good luck getting a straight answer on that one.

I think what we have sense the Cross is when we are in Christ we are free from sin wages.

Meaning what as it relates to this topic? No penalty whatsoever for believers sinning?

I think not. Paul in the N.T. spoke no different than the prophets of the O.T. We reap what we sow on either side of the ledgers.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

I am curious. Is the above what Storm thinks?

Some people make a living out of mischaracterizing the words of others. It's a subtle form of slander.

 

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Some people make a living out of mischaracterizing the words of others. It's a subtle form of slander.

The question of the devil's current existence as a yes or no and the question of the devil's currently being in the lake of fire as a yes or no addressed to your positions is no form of subtlety.

It is only a question of those matters being put forth openly from you.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

And how is this topic "end times"?

The final defeat of Satan fits into an end-time paradigm. The question is, which one?

If sin still exists after he is seen thrown into the lake of fire, how can a "futurist view" maintain that all sin is defeated with him, and that when he is thrown into the lake of fire the world will be completely and perfectly sinless?

The chronology of the last 3 chapters of Revelation suggests a different interpretation of the symbolism there.

 

[smaller]

The final defeat of Satan fits into an end-time paradigm. The question is, which one?

If sin still exists after he is seen thrown into the lake of fire, how can a "futurist view" maintain that all sin is defeated with him, and that when he is thrown into the lake of fire the world will be completely and perfectly sinless?

Sin still exists.

The chronology of the last 3 chapters of Revelation suggest a different interpretation of the symbolism there.

Believers are forgiven of sin. That same measure would not apply to the deceiver who remains in operation.

Nor does that fact that believers are forgiven of sin excuse being pawned by the workings of the deceiver by any sin or in doing his prompted actions.

Pretty simple.

s

 

[reba]

Gluttony is a sin...

My sins have been forgiven...

The wages (death) have been paid

I still carry the ugly fat

 

[Stormcrow]

Sin still exists.

Will it/does it exist after Satan's defeat?

 

[reba]

I sure wish you two understood each other better....


Seems to me the more we are " in Christ" the less we sin.... the defeat of sin at the Cross happened but do we use that defeat or go to this place

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

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Gluttony is a sin...

My sins have been forgiven...

The wages (death) have been paid

I still carry the ugly fat

Reba, seriously, listen up:

Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;

s

 

[smaller]

Will it/does it exist after Satan's defeat?

Yes, sin, evil, death and the workers of iniquity will still abide.

Where?

In the Lake of Fire. It's a permanent containment facility.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

Yes, sin, evil, death and the workers of iniquity will still abide.

Where?

In the Lake of Fire. It's a permanent containment facility.

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[smaller]

I sure wish you two understood each other better....

I have sought to clarify this matter with Stormcrow and Hitch many times. I can say that there has been ZERO responses to my direct questions, as that really is the heart of the differences in position understandings. Certainly nothing personal on my part other than to continually observe the facts of the differences. I don't think one whit less of them for their positions.

Seems to me the more we are " in Christ" the less we sin.... the defeat of sin at the Cross happened but do we use that defeat or go to this place

Sin's NON-attribution to believers in faith transpired at the Cross. This does not mean however that the workings of the tempter and his minions ceased then nor did the Cross stop them in the associated workings of sin with the devil. We are strongly advised not to be enslaved by the workings of evil which stem from the operations of the TEMPTER as we can assuredly be enslaved by same in this present life.

It is a gradual diminishment of the power of the tempter, but we can't say we don't have sin, at a minimum in thought form, and sin is of the devil in any form.

The fact should leave us in a humble approach, knowing what we are still subject to in our minds and hearts. It's not all just about 'us.'

s