If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[smaller]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
is it possible to for a person to stop believing?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

His Seed never dies or departs. The flesh in which it's planted can certainly bring some trouble in the meantime. Even to the point where His Seed remains in darkness, not yet busted through the soil and fertilizer.

That doesn't mean Jesus lost the end game.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Did this Seed Fail? Never! Not in all of eternity will His Seed fail. Love never fails.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[reba]

and what of the parable of the sower... ?

 

[Kidron]

I would instead why you believe that even though you evidently have eternal life that works of righteousness have no part in our lives.

Why did you twist his question and try to flip it?
He only stated that a gift is free, and you then ignored his point, and then you create a false response that accused him, not based on anything he wrote or even implied.
Why did you do that?
He never said anything about, " works of righteousness having no place in his life"......so, why did you accuse him falsely of that instead of just responding to his point about a "free gift, being free???.

 

[smaller]

and what of the parable of the sower... ?

His Seed never fails. His Seed is planted into all who call upon Him, and it is God in Christ who is entirely sufficient from that point on. Every person who has been called of/by God into Him, will experience His Salvation, the culmination of Himself. We are not an add on, but a literal component of His Spiritual Body, regardless of whatever other attachments we might perceive as our present life in the flesh.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The notion of continuing belief is false. Belief is a one time event, sufficient for all eternity.

 

[smaller]

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
is it possible to for a person to stop believing?

Yes, because Jesus said so in Luke 8:13 - "they believed for a while, but in time of temptation, fell away".

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

Do you understand the context here? Who the writer was writing to? And why?

The text does say anything about loss of salvation. It is about not repenting after returning to the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law. They were doing what the Galatians were doing:
First, he notes their predicament in 1:6-9 in accepting a false gospel after they had already accepted the true gospel.

Then, he makes this point in 2:16 - nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

The Hebrew audience were returning to the sacrificial system in order to avoid persecution from orthodox Jews. The writer of Hebrews goes on to prove that Christ's sacrifice abolished the Mosaic system of sacrifice, which does NOT cleanses from sin in ch 8 and 10.

 

[reba]

Your post here is one of the reasons i have been leaning to the non osas side ... reading the hoops jumped through to make your point..
Is them returning to their sin really any different then us returning to our sin? Our idols of self or football our denominations etc?

 

[smaller]

Your post here is one of the reasons i have been leaning to the non osas side ... reading the hoops jumped through to make your point..
Is them returning to their sin really any different then us returning to our sin? Our idols of self or football our denominations etc?

That dictate is false as well. There is no person who has ceased to be a sinner, post salvation. Everyone pointing at the other slaves of sin, are themselves a slave of hypocrisy.

There will be no sinful flesh in the Body of Christ, after we are taken OUT of this vile body and re-fashioned into His Body. So, some flesh pile has MORE sin? What does anyone expect of sinful flesh, but deception?

There has not been a single sinful flesh pile that has made itself acceptable before God in Christ, ever. Paul was the chief of sinners. 1 Tim. 1:15. Could we look at the actions of Paul to find this out? Never. Paul perceived his own dead sinful flesh, and what it was subject to, "internally." And there, found out what he really was. A sinner. Yet by his actions, he ruled over that sinful flesh pile. What we see on the outside is "present dominion" or NOT, and nothing more.

He never claimed not to be a sinner, but made the exact opposite claim.

Now, who would perceive that by his actions? No one. Yet, there is his claim.

 

[reba]

smaller you totally lost me.. i know we are sinful

 

[dianegcook]

One verse came to mind,
Rom.3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God.

Wages of sin is death.
What about our present sins?
We do not have to get saved again, but ask for forgiveness and repent from sin.
1John 1:9
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We can stray away from God, but He is there always, to forgive you, IF you ask and repent from them.

If we say we sin not, we are liars.

Good day, and be a doer of the Word, ...

 

[smaller]

smaller you totally lost me.. i know we are sinful

We are not saved on the basis of being non-sinners. Salvation by external morality is a lie. We show external dominion over sin only, by not being enslaved openly, but that never made anyone a non-sinner. If we follow Paul's footsteps, we will find ourselves exactly as Paul found himself, the chief of sinners, POST salvation.

Need I cite these again? Paul had evil present with him. Romans 7:21. He had sin indwelling his flesh that was not him. Romans 7:17-20. He had every manner (think about that for awhile) of concupiscence in/within him, that would be "in mind" that was prompted by the LAW which works adversarially with the flesh. It's called the "law of sin" which means, that when the law arrives, the flesh can do no other than to be disobedient, because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, which is WHY he was the chief of sinners. 2 Cor. 12:7.

The instant we perceive "internal temptations" to be of the tempter, THEN we see how it is "we" are the chief of sinners as well, because sin is in fact "of the devil." 1 John 3:8.

There is no person, standing as a lone individual. The flesh is 'subject' to the intrusion of the tempter, as shown by Jesus in Mark 4:15, and ALL the other seed parables.

Personal perception of this scriptural fact is critical to any form of christian theology.

Short lesson? The tempter operates in the flesh. The flesh is thusly sinful REGARDLESS of it's external actions. And thusly, no person can stand in the flesh, fully justified. And as such the flesh is not justified, righteous, nor is it even remotely possible to make it so. We are justified only by His Eternal Deposit, in faith, to be raised from this present factual [adverse] planting.

Paul exercised this exact understanding, showing the construction of "me" in Romans 9:18-23. He paints it again in 1 Cor. 15:43-49, showing openly that we are planted in corruption, weakness, dishonor and in a natural body that is DOOMED to perish and fail, in favor of His Spiritual Body.

Whether any perceives the above will remain rather irrelevant anyway.

God Saves sinners, and does so on the basis of faith in His Promises. If someone wants to perceive the other side of these equations, there is present gain, imho, to do so in order to wage our battles and wrestling matches. Eph. 6:11-13.

And you will notice that wrestling match is with the devil. Not some other sinner in the flesh.

 

[reba]

Thanks i think i got what you are saying..

 

[FreeGrace]

Your post here is one of the reasons i have been leaning to the non osas side ... reading the hoops jumped through to make your point..

I don't understand this. I presume my explanation is seen as "jumping through hoops". Why would that be?

Is them returning to their sin really any different then us returning to our sin? Our idols of self or football our denominations etc?

No. What is the point here?

 

[reba]

i do see what your saying as jumping through hoops.. the Scripture says this :

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

Your explanation tells me those Scriptures were not written for today.. I disagree.

 

[JLB]

Do you think the apostles Jesus was speaking to are gathered together with Jesus at this time? Are those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 present in heaven with Jesus prior to the tribulation even beginning? How’d they get there?

I agree with your thought “The man of sin may in fact be alive on the earth today, but is yet to be revealed, as he will be revealed "in his own time."

You’re using scripture of a particular time, and would you have any idea what is being said in 2 Th 2:7? For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
2 Thessalonians 2:3

man of sin comes before the coming of the Lord.

Plain and simple!

The coming of the Lord is when the simultaneous Resurrection/Rapture take place.

JLB

 

[Eugene]

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
2 Thessalonians 2:3

man of sin comes before the coming of the Lord.

Plain and simple!

The coming of the Lord is when the simultaneous Resurrection/Rapture take place.

JLB

Who is to be taken away first? Who is it that letteth or hinders before the wicked one is revealed? Rev 3:10 is a clue for them that faithfully keep the word of God that will be kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world.
How are they kept from it?

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Th 2:8a And then shall that Wicked be revealed . .
2 Thes 2:8b whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The man of sin will have been here 3 1/3 years prior to our Lord's coming.

 

[JLB]

Who is to be taken away first? Who is it that letteth or hinders before the wicked one is revealed? Rev 3:10 is a clue for them that faithfully keep the word of God that will be kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world.
How are they kept from it?

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Th 2:8a And then shall that Wicked be revealed . .
2 Thes 2:8b whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The man of sin will have been here 3 1/3 years prior to our Lord's coming.

No one is Resurrected/Raptured before the man of sin is revealed, that the point Paul makes.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Paul makes it clear, the Resurrection and Rapture happen together, at His Coming.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

His Coming = Resurrection and Rapture (Gathering)

His Coming = after the man of sin is revealed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The man of sin will have been here 3 1/3 years prior to our Lord's coming.

Yes. Agreed

 

[JLB]

Rev 3:10 is a clue for them that faithfully keep the word of God that will be kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world.
How are they kept from it

The same way Noah was kept.

Again the Resurrection and Rapture happen at His Coming, and are the same event, which takes place after the man of sin is revealed.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Please acknowledge that you understand that the Ressurrection and Rapture happen at the same time, and are not separated by time, at His Coming.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

The use of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is certainly the correct order of those caught up to God, but you're not addressing the fact of
those of 2 Thes 2:7 (he who now letteth) being taken out of the way first, and then shall that wicked be revealed according to 2 Thes 2:8. Please allow me to ask you again who is HE that letteth? I might also ask if you're aware that more that one order of saints are caught up into the air to meet Jesus at separate times? John reports at least three different cohorts of believers arriving in heaven at separate times.

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Th 2:8a And then shall that Wicked be revealed . .