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If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

Who thinks asking for a gift, when is received worked for it, and earned it?

  • Worked for it, and earned it!

    Votes: 1 8.3%
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FreeGrace

 
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Paul exhorts: the Galatians, The Ephesians, and the Corinthians, all of whom are Christians, and warns them against practicing a sinful lifestyle of walking after the flesh, and thereby receiving the same condemnation as the unbelievers.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Do not be a partaker of God's wrath with them.
Where did being condemned "as the unbelievers" come from? Those words aren't in the verses being quoted. Since it didn't come from Scripture, where?

It's clear that we're never going to agree on much. Your view has been refuted directly from Scripture, which you've chosen to reject.

God never goes back on his promises, and eternal life is a promise: And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. 1 Jn 2:25

Your view has God going back on his promise. Yet the Bible is clear that He always keeps His promise.

Scripture never SAYS that either eternal life or salvation can be lost, given away, forfeited. So there is no reason to think so.

Mish-mashing verses together to try to show that salvation can be lost isn't Biblical.

You've not shown that these verses don't teach eternal security.

Eph 1:13,14 - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1. having believed we are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit
2. the Holy Spirit is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING our inheritance
3. having believed, we are God's possession

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1. having believed (1:13) we were sealed for the DAY OF REDEMPTION
2. no verses that even suggest or hint that anyone, including our selves can break this seal
3. this seal is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (1:14)

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

1. here Paul repeats what he wrote to the Ephesians. Those who have believed have the Holy Spirit as a deposit which is a guarantee for the day of redemption, which is "what is to come".
2. all these verses prove that those who have believed have been sealed as a guarantee for the day of redemption.

This same author also described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Paul taught eternal security. Your view is in direct contrast with his teachings, which are Biblical.

Unless you can address each of these verses and show by exegesis that they teach something other than eternal security, there is nothing more to discuss.
 

FreeGrace

 
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You have not explained anything, but rather, as Paul says, you offer empty words of deception.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience...
Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Believers in Jesus Christ, who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be rewarded with—indignation and wrath,JLB
See post #661 for full explanation.

And if you can't exegete the verses I provided to prove that they don't teach eternal security, your view is not Biblical.
 

JLB

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Where did being condemned "as the unbelievers" come from? Those words aren't in the verses being quoted. Since it didn't come from Scripture, where?
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7


Paul warns Christians at the Church of Ephesus about the wrath of God that comes upon the sons of disobedience, which is a reference to unbelievers. If you think that "sons of disobedience", is a reference to believers then please explain why?


Paul warns Christians, not to be partakers of the wrath of God, that comes upon unbelievers, those who don't obey the Gospel.

as he says... Therefore do not be partakers with them.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10



JLB
 

JLB

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It's clear that we're never going to agree on much. Your view has been refuted directly from Scripture, which you've chosen to reject.

You have never refuted anything, but have redefined Jesus words, and explained away the meaning of "not inherit the kingdom".

As well as what Peter and Paul and James has plainly said about those who practice the works of the flesh, and those who turn away from Christ.

You have even said a born again Christian Pastor can practice and live, teach and die as a homosexual, and still be saved, which is Heresy.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

John warns us of the same thing the same thing -

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


Paul warns us not to be partakers of the wrath of God, with them.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


You would have to believe that the wrath of God, is really "loss of rewards" and not... being punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.


Maybe you think, the lake that burns with fire, really means... loss of rewards.


Is that it?


JLB
 

FreeGrace

 
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6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Paul warns Christians at the Church of Ephesus about the wrath of God that comes upon the sons of disobedience, which is a reference to unbelievers. If you think that "sons of disobedience", is a reference to believers then please explain why?

Paul warns Christians, not to be partakers of the wrath of God, that comes upon unbelievers, those who don't obey the Gospel.

as he says... Therefore do not be partakers with them.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10JLB
If you can refute post #661, by showing that Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't teach eternal security, I will listen.
 

FreeGrace

 
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You have never refuted anything, but have redefined Jesus words, and explained away the meaning of "not inherit the kingdom".
I wasn't "re-defining" anything. I was explaining what the phrase means.

You have even said a born again Christian Pastor can practice and live, teach and die as a homosexual, and still be saved, which is Heresy.
You still haven't proven a thing about your "loss of salvation" notions. None of the passages you love to quote are speaking about loss of salvation.

Why not? Because of all the passages that teach eternal security.

And, you'll have to go to post #661 and prove that the verses I quoted do NOT teach eternal security.

Maybe you think, the lake that burns with fire, really means... loss of rewards. Is that it?
Not even close.

The lake of fire is for those who never received the free gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15

From your question, it is clear that you really have no clue about the biblical teaching of eternal rewards. That is quite sad.

Paul told Timothy that in order to "reign with Christ" they had they to "endure". Nowhere in Scripture is reigning with Christ used to describe going to heaven. It is a reward for enduring.

Your whole view eliminates the concept of rewards. In fact, your view has going to heaven a reward, which means that going to heaven is earned.

Now, that is what is really heresy. Because we aren't saved by earning it. We are saved by grace through faith.

Your view is salvation by working for it. That is a heresy.

Jesus Christ died for your sins because you (and I) cannot meet God's standards of perfection. Only His Son did that and paid our sin debt IN FULL.

There's NOTHING we can do to get to heaven except by receiving (through faith) God's free gift, which is eternal life.

And if eternal life can be lost, refunded, given away, forfeited, etc, then it really wasn't all that "eternal". Which is a huge problem for your view.

The word 'eternal' means exactly what it says. It's permanent life. Given to those who believe (Jn 3:16, 6:40). And as a gift of God (Rom 6:23), it is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

I have proven eternal security from Scripture. Which means your view has been refuted from Scripture.

You're going to have to prove by exegesis that the verses I posted in post #661 don't teach eternal security.

Which will be impossible to do. Because they DO teach eternal security.
 

JLB

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If you can refute post #661, by showing that Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't teach eternal security, I will listen.

I have shown you multiple times from scripture, the truth that the Apostles and Jesus teach us about eternal life, and to those it is granted.

The lake of fire is for those who never received the free gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


I guess you believe John was writing to unbelievers, to warn them? :eek2


7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


I guess a person who believes that a pastor who becomes a Homosexual, and teaches his people from his pulpit that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle for Christians, and is still saved, would believe just about any unbiblical doctrine out there.


Those Christians, who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; have eternal security.
Those Christians, who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will have—indignation and wrath,


7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8


JLB


 

FreeGrace

 
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I said this:
"If you can refute post #661, by showing that Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't teach eternal security, I will listen."
I have shown you multiple times from scripture, the truth that the Apostles and Jesus teach us about eternal life, and to those it is granted.
Again, you've ignored the verses I presented that teach eternal life. Unless you deal with each verse and show me with exegesis how those verses don't teach eternal life, there is no reason to accept your view.
 

JLB

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Again, you've ignored the verses I presented that teach eternal life. Unless you deal with each verse and show me with exegesis how those verses don't teach eternal life, there is no reason to accept your view.
You have rejected all the scriptures I have posted, and have made up your own theology from a verse of scripture that doesn't contain the words eternal life.

You refuse to acknowledge the plain words of scriptures that say: Now you want to get out of the spotlight of truth and change to different scriptures, because you can't explain away the truth about to whom eternal life will be given.

These words were written to Christians in the Church of Rome -

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8

These words were written to Christians in Ephesus, the same Christians he started writting to in Chapter 1.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Paul wrote to these Christians who believed the Gospel, and have the seal of God upon them, which is the Holy Spirit of promise, and warned them with these words of warning... do not be partakers with them!

Do not be partakers of what? The wrath of God.



Christians who practice the works of the flesh, and walk after it's lustful desires, rather than by the Spirit putting them to death, are disobedient Christians who do not obey the truth.

They are self seeking, and obey unrighteousness.

  • Christians who believe the Gospel and have the Holy Spirit are warned with these solemn words from Paul -

...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

  • Christians who believe the Gospel and have the Holy Spirit are warned with these solemn words from Paul -
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
  • Christians who believe the Gospel and have the Holy Spirit are warned with these solemn words from Peter -

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

  • Christians who believe the Gospel and have the Holy Spirit are warned with these solemn words from Paul -
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

  • Christians who believe the Gospel and have the Holy Spirit are warned with these solemn words from Paul -

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8


Look at the point he makes:

These people are partakers of the Holy Spirit,
which is the seal and guarantee of our redemption, but if we have been given the Holy Spirit and we "bring forth" unrighteous things, as typified by "briers and thorns", then the end is to be burned.


Paul gives this warning over and over and over, throughout his letters to all the churches.

Christians with the Holy Spirit
, who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Christians with the Holy Spirit,
who bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Christians with the Holy Spirit, do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:7

Christians with the Holy Spirit, whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Christians with the Holy Spirit, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20


JLB
 

FreeGrace

 
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You have rejected all the scriptures I have posted, and have made up your own theology from a verse of scripture that doesn't contain the words eternal life.
So interesting that a verse that "doesn't contain the words eternal life" seems so troubling to your view, YET, your theology is based on NO VERSES that say that one can lose eternal life.

So, a "pick & choose" kind of theology, huh.

Your view cannot be found in Scripture. Mine has been, since the word "gifts" were previously defined by Paul before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. But because that refutes your theology, you'll have no part of it, even though it's the truth.

But, worse than that, I've provided very clear verses that teach eternal security in post #661, and you've not even tried to explain how they DON'T teach eternal security.

If they don't teach eternal security, it should be easy to explain where I am wrong about them.

The reason why there has been no attempt to show that they don't teach eternal security is that in your own heart, you KNOW that they do, and there is no rebuttal for that.

You refuse to acknowledge the plain words of scriptures that say: Now you want to get out of the spotlight of truth and change to different scriptures, because you can't explain away the truth about to whom eternal life will be given.
Nice shift. Paul defined what he meant by "gifts" BEFORE he said that God's gifts are irrevocable. Anyone is free to accept the truth or not.

And you've still failed to show any verses that plainly teach that one can lose their salvation.
 

WIP

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And you've still failed to show any verses that plainly teach that one can lose their salvation.
For my own clarity, are you saying that one can be saved and although this is a saved person still receive the wrath of God, still be thrown into the lake of fire, and still not inherit the Kingdom of God? What then is this person saved from?
 

FreeGrace

 
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I said this:
"And you've still failed to show any verses that plainly teach that one can lose their salvation."
For my own clarity, are you saying that one can be saved and although this is a saved person still receive the wrath of God, still be thrown into the lake of fire, and still not inherit the Kingdom of God? What then is this person saved from?
No, I am saying that once saved, a person is always saved. Because the free gift of God, eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

But there are many other verses that teach eternal security. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 are all related to the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a guaranteed promise for the day of redemption.

Also, 1 Thess 5:4-11 is another such passage.
4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then,let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self controlled.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, letus be self controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

v.4-8 provides a contrast between believer (sons of light and day) and unbeliever (those who belong to the night/darkness). The contrast suggests a lifestyle difference as well, from v.7 (sleeping/drinking).

v.9 is a statement about God having appointed us (believers) to receive salvation, not to suffer wrath (lake of fire).
v.10 This is key. Regardless of whether the believer is awake or asleep, He died so that we may live together with Him. I don't see how that can mean anything other than regardless of the believer's lifestyle, they will live together with Him.
v.11 shows that we are to encourage one another. Since there isn't anything in this passage about a believer facing God's wrath, but being saved from it, the encouragement is related to eternal security.

Doesn't it make sense that eternal security should encourage each believer to live for Him in gratitude?

And, as my previous post notes, there are no plainly stated verses about losing salvation. And there's plenty of verses that could have added such an idea if it were true.

Even 1 Thes 5:4-11 is one such passage. But instead of reading about those who are asleep facing God's wrath, instead they will live together with Him!
 

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Okay so how do you explain for example Hebrews 6:4-8?
 

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Okay so how do you explain for example Hebrews 6:4-8?
I don't consider "falling away" to refer to loss of salvation. Scholars say that the author was addressing Jewish believers who had turned back to the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution.

The author's point was that Jesus was the ultimate "once for all" Sacrifice, and that the animal sacrifices done year after year don't actually cleanse anyone (Heb 10:1).

When a believer turns away from God's commands, they lose out on His blessings, which He promises for those who are obedient and faithful. This is what they fall away from; His blessings.
 

JLB

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I don't consider "falling away" to refer to loss of salvation. Scholars say that the author was addressing Jewish believers who had turned back to the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution.
Turning back to the Law is turning away from Christ, under persecution from the Jews.

The very definition of falling away and loss of salvation.

Also those believing Jews who demanded the Gentile and Jew believers continue to keep the law and have Gentiles become circumscribed is what Paul addresses in Galatians 1.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

Turn away, fall away, depart from, are all references to the word Repent.

It would in essence be to un-repent.

If repent is to turn to God, then turn away, or fall away, of depart from Him is to turn back away from Him.


JLB
 

JLB

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When a believer turns away from God's commands, they lose out on His blessings, which He promises for those who are obedient and faithful. This is what they fall away from; His blessings.
It's not turning away from His commands... It's turning away or departing from God Himself, the One in whom we turn to when we repent.

Repent is the command of the Gospel we are to obey, to be saved.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, is the Gospel.

This is what Jesus commissioned Paul to do.

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:16-18


Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God. Colossians 1:13-14

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.
The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to "come out of hiding", in darkness, and to come into the light, the kingdom of light.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


JLB
 

FreeGrace

 
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Turning back to the Law is turning away from Christ, under persecution from the Jews.
Yes, it is.

The very definition of falling away and loss of salvation.
Except…….there is NO such teaching in Scripture. One MUST ASSUME that falling away means loss of salvation.

In spite of clear verses about being held by the Father's hand (Jn 10:28,29), being sealed with the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5) (how is that not crystal clear?). And don't forget that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Turn away, fall away, depart from, are all references to the word Repent.

It would in essence be to un-repent.
OK

If repent is to turn to God, then turn away, or fall away, of depart from Him is to turn back away from Him.
JLB
OK

But you've not proven that falling away means loss of salvation. That is purely an assumption, and an erroneous one at that.

The Bible teaches eternal security in many places, and you've rejected every one of them.

Yet, in spite of that, your faith in Christ keeps you secure in the Father's hand, even though you've rejected His promises.

Jesus addressed the issue of believing "for a while" and then falling away. The phrase "fall away" refers back to "for a while". They fell away from their faith. But there are NO WORDS to suggest loss of salvation, and WHAT A PLACE to do that, if that were true.

What's very interesting to me is that there is no mention of loss of salvation or eternal life anywhere in Scripture, yet many believe in the concept. There is no rational reason to believe such a view.
 

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It's not turning away from His commands... It's turning away or departing from God Himself, the One in whom we turn to when we repent.
And God STILL holds the who had believed in His hand, and in which NO ONE (no person, which obviously includes the one who believed as well) can snatch out of His hand.

iow, JBL, even you yourself cannot separate yourself from God's hand. And there are no verses to even suggest such a thing.

And Jesus made it clear about who's in control. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." Jn 10:29

The words "no one" means "no person", and that includes yourself. And note that Jesus spoke of inability to remove yourself from the Father's hand. There are no believers in history who were able to remove themselves from the Father's hand.

But you don't believe that because you've accepted a false teaching over what the Bible teaches.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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Nice shift. Paul defined what he meant by "gifts" BEFORE he said that God's gifts are irrevocable. Anyone is free to accept the truth or not.

And you've still failed to show any verses that plainly teach that one can lose their salvation.
I've shown many, you just keep you eyes shut to them.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

All anyone has to do is read the plain words of Jesus Christ, to know that a person can indeed be "cast out" from Him, and end up thrown into the fire.

Remember, your claim that thrown into the fire and burned, "really means" removed from Christian service. :drool

That's was your "interpretation" to these words of Jesus Christ.


And when Paul teaches us from Romans... 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Your "interpretation" of these plain words of warning to the Church at Rome were... These were "moralist's" who didn't understand grace.


... eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

So is this verse of scripture written to the Christian or the "moralist"?


JLB

 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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And don't forget that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
Yes, eternal life is a gift of God, which is defined by the Lord Himself as relationship with God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Turn away from Christ, and you turn away from the eternal life He provides, just like a Vine provides life to the branch. John 15:6


Those who are connected to the Vice produce the "fruit", the Vine expresses through the branch.

That's why Paul can plainly say... eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


JLB
 

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