If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[OzSpen]

(Post removed. Off topic. Obadiah)

 

[MarkT]

Correct. He never lies and He always keeps His promises.


Paul isn't implying anything. He already described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. That's exactly what he was referring to in Rom 11:29. Nothing else.

I had said this:
"Where did Paul say that Israel being God's people was a gift? He didn't. Where else in Scripture does it say that being God's people is a gift? No where."

How is this any kind of answer to my question? Prior to Rom 11:29, the ONLY use of "gift of God" occurs in Rom 6:23.

That's where we connect the dots.

He brings it into our remembrance - The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Assuming we have a memory. Ps. 89

Don't argue with me. Just do it!

 

[MarkT]

Paul isn't implying anything. He already described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. That's exactly what he was referring to in Rom 11:29. Nothing else.

Justification and eternal life are the things he promised, and like you said, God keeps his promises. That pretty much sums up Rom. 11:29

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

(Post removed. Failure to follow staff's request to abide by the guidelines of this forum. Obadiah.)

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

All our Lord wants us to do is to keep his words and do what he said. Those who are called, who are chosen by God, they get the higher gifts. They do have the assurance of the Holy Spirit. They follow the Lord and no one else. Chosen from the foundation of the world, predestined. I agree. But most people are not chosen. Jesus said, Many are called, few are chosen. Mt. 22:14 Most believers are caught in the net. There you will find the good and the bad. They will be separated when the Lord returns. You seem to have the words of eternal security. That’s good. Wish everyone did.

I don't agree with any of this. All believers have been given spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12 and 14

Believers who are faithful and obedient will be blessed in this life, and rewared in eternity. Those who don't lose out on blessings in this life and rewards in eternity. That's the the Bible promises.

And, the words of eternal security are for all believers, for all believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

 

[FreeGrace]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[FreeGrace]

He brings it into our remembrance - The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Assuming we have a memory. Ps. 89

Don't argue with me. Just do it!

I have no idea what your point is. "Do" what? And of course we need to remember what the Bible says. But the debate is about the meaning of Rom 11:29. That God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. And Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God.

The gifts of Rom 11:29 are what Paul described as gifts in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23.

Because he didn't describe ANYTHING ELSE as gifts of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Justification and eternal life are the things he promised, and like you said, God keeps his promises. That pretty much sums up Rom. 11:29

Voila!! Because God does keep His promises, and He has promised that believers are sealed for the day of redemption, which is a guarantee according to Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, we know that eternal security is for all believers.

 

[JLB]

No one has yet shown that the verse doesn't mean "irrevocable".

What you have been shown many times, is the word without repentance or irrevocable doesn't carry the modern meaning that our culture ascribes to the word.

In the original Greek word it means:

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

not repentant of, unregretted - Strongs G278


The only other place this word is used in the New Testament is found in 2 Corinthians 7:10.

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

God does not regret calling nor giving the gifts associated with that calling as it will lead to salvation...

For the gifts and calling are without repentance, without regret.

Our greatest gift is Jesus Christ, and eternal life is knowing Him and being joined to Him.

Though some will be cut off from this relationship because of unbelief, God does not withhold or regret giving His only begotten Son as His greatest gift to the Jews, or to the world.


You have attempted to use this word in Romans 11:29, without repentance as a means to convey the idea that it is impossible to be disconnect from Jesus Christ, once a person believes and is joined to Him.

You have tried to remove what the word without repentance [irrevocable] means and substitute it with the word eternal life, in order to try persuade people to believe the doctrine of OSAS.

• I have found that mostly it is Pastors who desire to teach people what their itching ears want to hear, in order to take up good offerings, that push this doctrine

Here is what Peter says about such people -

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber...19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2;1-3,19-21


JLB

 

[JLB]

Which is a HUGE point for eternal security.

Tell that to Lucifer and the angels who were cast down to hell for their disobedience during the days of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

This scripture is a warning from Peter to false teachers, and uses angels, who are called sons of God, as an example.

Here is the context by which Peter makes this clear warning of... if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell.


But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

...19 While they [false teachers] promise them [the ones being taught false doctrine] liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:1-4,19-21


JLB

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for moderator review.

 

[Obadiah]

This thread is now re-opened and I thank those who abide by our requests and our rules. Further off topic arguments or posts as well as further violations of the ToS or refusal to follow staff's requests will be rewarded with infraction points.

 

[smaller]

What we invariably ask ourselves in this matter is "why do I believe" and someone else doesn't?

The freewill quotients say you can hear, but you have to ask to receive. The determinists say we are drawn in by God's Living Word, to believe.

I believe that God in Christ is The Fisher of man, and catches whom He Will, and conversely, if any particular individual isn't caught, they aren't meant to be caught, but both Purposes serve God's Divine Purposes, regardless.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

We can witness to any given captive all the day long and they just can't see it and don't/won't "get it" or understand unless and until it's given to them by God in Christ, directly to them, to understand, to repent, to believe.

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Jesus said He will build His Church.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I doubt very much that Jesus is interested in any other man's church.

 

[MarkT]

Voila!! Because God does keep His promises, and He has promised that believers are sealed for the day of redemption, which is a guarantee according to Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, we know that eternal security is for all believers.

He also destroys dead branches.

According to Paul, natural branches were broken off because of unbelief, and we stand fast only through faith. Then he goes on, "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Rom. 11:21-24

 

[MarkT]

(Post removed. After numerous warnings you still refuse to comply with A&T guidelines requiring statements be backed by scripture and you refuse to comply with staff's previous request in this thread to follow these guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[MarkT]

I have no idea what your point is. "Do" what? And of course we need to remember what the Bible says. But the debate is about the meaning of Rom 11:29. That God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. And Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God.

The gifts of Rom 11:29 are what Paul described as gifts in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23.

Because he didn't describe ANYTHING ELSE as gifts of God.

Irrevocable meaning the gifts and the call of God cannot be rescinded, as one might rescind a will or a contract or a covenant.

In this case Paul is talking about natural Israel's right to sonship Rom. 9:4 and the gifts and the call of God. This is of particular concern to Paul. He asks, 'Has God rejected his people?' Rom. 11:1 He explains what he said in Rom. 11:29 in Rom. 11: 30-32 - "Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all." Rom. 11: 30-32

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Because God does keep His promises, and He has promised that believers are sealed for the day of redemption, which is a guarantee according to Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, we know that eternal security is for all believers."

He also destroys dead branches.

But since Scripture cannot contradict itself, either the verses on sealing with the Holy Spirit do not teach eternal security, or, the metaphor about burning unfruitful branches doesn't refer to loss of salvation.

It cannot be both. Because we know from the verses I've cited that those who believe are sealed as a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption, I know that the agricultural metaphor isn't about loss of salvation.

According to Paul, natural branches were broken off because of unbelief, and we stand fast only through faith. Then he goes on, "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Rom. 11:21-24

And, again, because justification (Rom 3:24,5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are gifts of God, and Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable, we also know that Rom 11:21-24 cannot refer to loss of salvation.

Again, the whole idea of branches is an agricultural metaphor about failure to be productive. Not about loss of salvation. If it was about loss of salvation, then the Bible is internally contradicted and we might as well all just go home.

 

[FreeGrace]

Irrevocable meaning the gifts and the call of God cannot be rescinded, as one might rescind a will or a contract or a covenant.

And since Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24,5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God, it is obvious that both of them cannot be rescinded. That is eternal security.

In this case Paul is talking about natural Israel's right to sonship Rom. 9:4 and the gifts and the call of God.

Except Paul never described natural Israel's right to sonship as a gift, either in the letter to the Romans, or in any other letter he wrote. But he did describe both justification and eternal life as gifts of God.

This is of particular concern to Paul. He asks, 'Has God rejected his people?' Rom. 11:1 He explains what he said in Rom. 11:29 in Rom. 11: 30-32 - "Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all." Rom. 11: 30-32

Given how Paul had previously described both justification and eternal life in Romans, 11:29 refers to those things he already described as gifts of God.

In fact, Paul didn't even use the word 'gift' between 6:23 and 11:29. Making it extremely easy to connect the dots between those 2 verses.

 

[MarkT]

And since Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24,5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God, it is obvious that both of them cannot be rescinded. That is eternal security.


Except Paul never described natural Israel's right to sonship as a gift, either in the letter to the Romans, or in any other letter he wrote. But he did describe both justification and eternal life as gifts of God.


Given how Paul had previously described both justification and eternal life in Romans, 11:29 refers to those things he already described as gifts of God.

In fact, Paul didn't even use the word 'gift' between 6:23 and 11:29. Making it extremely easy to connect the dots between those 2 verses.

Not when he is talking about his people. I believe he is talking about their right to sonship. Paul talks about the sonship in Rom. 8: 14-17, saying, we are fellow heirs with Christ, and he talks about the call of God in Rom. 8:28-30

Their right, based on the law, was abolished when the new covenant came.

The gifts pertain to the new covenant. So he is not talking about the gifts exactly when he says the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

To me he is saying Israel is included in the new covenant. He says so. Rom. 11:12

 

[FreeGrace]

Not when he is talking about his people. I believe he is talking about their right to sonship.

[Edited for not following forum guidelines. Please post Scriptural support for your view. WIP]

Paul talks about the sonship in Rom. 8: 14-17, saying, we are fellow heirs with Christ, and he talks about the call of God in Rom. 8:28-30

[Edited for not following forum guidelines. Please post Scriptural support for your view. WIP]

The gifts pertain to the new covenant.

Could you specify exactly what you mean by gifts that pertain to the new covenant? And provide Scripture to support your view about them being gifts.

So he is not talking about the gifts exactly when he says the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Actually, he IS talking about the gifts EXACTLY in 11:29. Your statement makes no sense.

To me he is saying Israel is included in the new covenant. He says so. Rom. 11:12

[Edited for not following forum guidelines. Please post Scriptural support for your view. WIP]