Bible Study If someone doesn't know about Christ, and has never heard of Christ, then where do they go when they die?

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. The conetxt was not about people boasting, or about people who say the correct words. The topic is about people who practice the values of the kingdom of Heaven but who do not know about the name of Jesus, and how Jesus will view such

Here's a video which I think does a good job of dealing with the Romans 10 verse you quoted. Let me know what you think.

Sorry, but the video didn't come up. It says secure connection failed. It might be because I am on dial up.

How can one even try to practice the value the kingdom of heaven or even know anything about it if they have never even heard of Jesus as that would also mean they have never read the Bible. Flat out those without faith that do not confess Him as Lord and Savior are none of His own, Romans 8:1-9.

 

[john darling]

what He taught in Romans 10:9, 10 of God's salvation as we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If we do not confess that He is then we are none of His own.

Hi FHG. No problem. I'll give my point of view on the issue in my own words without it become tldr.

First off, "confess with your mouth" would have been very contextually different at the time Paul wrote it. Jesus was a criminal. Paul himself had severely persecuted the church and his conversion didn't change that. Confessing Jesus at that time would likely have resulted in being kicked out of the synagogue, which was much more consequential than the idea we have in modern days where it's pretty easy to move from one church to the next. And, more serious than that there would have been a good chance one would be persecuted if not killed for such a confession, much like one might easily be killed today for confessing to be a Christian in a predominantly Muslim country.

Today it's popular to be a Christian. You're likely to be congratulated by dozens (if not hundreds, depending on the size of your church) of cheering people when you confess the name of Jesus, which presents a very different context to what it would have meant to confess Jesus back in the day.

Secondly, Paul is not the savior; Jesus is. I believe Paul's teachings are consistent with what Jesus taught, but when it comes to teaching on what it means to be saved, the standard is Jesus.

This leads to my third point; check out Mt 7:21, Luke 6:46, and Luke 13:25 to see plenty of evidence from Jesus that calling on his name is not enough. Check out Mk 3:22. Here's an example of a demon confessing that Jesus is the son of God. Obviously, these example show that just speaking a correct formula (i.e. Jesus I believe you are Lord and I ask you into my heart) isn't enough.

This is the same mistake the Pharisees made; they developed an arrogant spirit suggesting that what made them right with God was a specific religious formula. Lk 3:8. Look carefully at this verse; John rebukes the pharisees for claiming rightness with God via genetic lineage, an outward, physical connection which had nothing to do with inner, spiritual traits. Jesus commented on the same issue when he quoted Isaiah; "this people draws near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" Mt 15:8. Like the Lord, Lord example from earlier, these people knew how to say the right things, but they did not have a right heart.

They believed they were right with God much like many Christians today believe they are right with God because they say Lord or "confess the name of Jesus".

And finally, because all these verses point to talk being cheap, I would like to suggest that confessing Jesus happens every time we act on his teachings. This is why Jesus talked about being the way; his teachings make up the values of the kingdom of Heaven. If you show love to your neighbor, you are practicing the way of Jesus eve if you do not know the name of Jesus.

Obviously God is no fool, so he will know who has a bad attitude about their good works and who is sincere, but never, ever is there any indication that we should not at least try to obey Jesus, or that people who practice the teachings of Jesus would be punished for doing so because they didn't say "Lord Jesus is my savior". They show by their actions that they are citizens of the kingdom of Heaven when they practice the values of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It makes no sense whatsoever that God will reject people who respond to his spirit (since God is the source of love people can only show love by responding to his spirit) just because they didn't say the proper prayer or use the correct titles/names for God. Remember Moses? When he asked, " who should I say has sent me" God responded by giving him an unpronounceable series of consonants which translates to "I am whatever I want to be".

"They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another". Jn 13:35

"If you follow my teachings, then you will be my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free" Jn 8:31

"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples". Jn 15:8

None of these verses suggest a need to speak the correct name of God, to speak the name of Jesus, or to perform any religious observance to be right with God. The emphasis in all these teachings is the promotion of the Kingdom of Heaven by acting on the values of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[ezra]

First off, "confess with your mouth" would have been very contextually different at the time Paul wrote it. Jesus was a criminal. Paul himself had severely persecuted the church and his conversion didn't change that. Confessing Jesus at that time would likely have resulted in being kicked out of the synagogue,

nobody said this had to be out loud we can confess with our mouth and no body hear us .. but i have to agree with F H G we believe from the heart God gives us a new heart and a heart to know him

 

[john darling]

but i have to agree with F H G we believe from the heart God gives us a new heart and a heart to know him

So, what did you think about my response to FHG?

 

[TheGoldenThread]

If Bill Gates was to offer you his mansion, together with a maintence packages, how do you think he would feel if you started to take out a mortgage to pay him for that mansion?

It is even more rediculous to think that our filthy rags can be pleasing to God and that they would pay any part of the value of Jesus.

It still amazes me how people can look at God and say, "well, I can't do this perfectly, so I am just going to not try and disobey everything you say." It is as if this attitude will impress God on judgment day.

It seems people have gone back to holding on to their religious rituals as did the Israelites. It is sad because what God wants is obedience, not religious sacrifice (the ritual of 'accepting' Jesus as our lord and savior).

 

[Who Me]

It still amazes me how people can look at God and say, "well, I can't do this perfectly, so I am just going to not try and disobey everything you say." It is as if this attitude will impress God on judgment day.

It seems people have gone back to holding on to their religious rituals as did the Israelites. It is sad because what God wants is obedience, not religious sacrifice (the ritual of 'accepting' Jesus as our lord and savior).

Which is why I use such a stupid example to try and show what they are doing.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. No problem. I'll give my point of view on the issue in my own words without it become tldr.

First off, "confess with your mouth" would have been very contextually different at the time Paul wrote it. Jesus was a criminal. Paul himself had severely persecuted the church and his conversion didn't change that. Confessing Jesus at that time would likely have resulted in being kicked out of the synagogue, which was much more consequential than the idea we have in modern days where it's pretty easy to move from one church to the next. And, more serious than that there would have been a good chance one would be persecuted if not killed for such a confession, much like one might easily be killed today for confessing to be a Christian in a predominantly Muslim country.

Today it's popular to be a Christian. You're likely to be congratulated by dozens (if not hundreds, depending on the size of your church) of cheering people when you confess the name of Jesus, which presents a very different context to what it would have meant to confess Jesus back in the day.

Secondly, Paul is not the savior; Jesus is. I believe Paul's teachings are consistent with what Jesus taught, but when it comes to teaching on what it means to be saved, the standard is Jesus.

This leads to my third point; check out Mt 7:21, Luke 6:46, and Luke 13:25 to see plenty of evidence from Jesus that calling on his name is not enough. Check out Mk 3:22. Here's an example of a demon confessing that Jesus is the son of God. Obviously, these example show that just speaking a correct formula (i.e. Jesus I believe you are Lord and I ask you into my heart) isn't enough.

This is the same mistake the Pharisees made; they developed an arrogant spirit suggesting that what made them right with God was a specific religious formula. Lk 3:8. Look carefully at this verse; John rebukes the pharisees for claiming rightness with God via genetic lineage, an outward, physical connection which had nothing to do with inner, spiritual traits. Jesus commented on the same issue when he quoted Isaiah; "this people draws near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" Mt 15:8. Like the Lord, Lord example from earlier, these people knew how to say the right things, but they did not have a right heart.

They believed they were right with God much like many Christians today believe they are right with God because they say Lord or "confess the name of Jesus".

And finally, because all these verses point to talk being cheap, I would like to suggest that confessing Jesus happens every time we act on his teachings. This is why Jesus talked about being the way; his teachings make up the values of the kingdom of Heaven. If you show love to your neighbor, you are practicing the way of Jesus eve if you do not know the name of Jesus.

Obviously God is no fool, so he will know who has a bad attitude about their good works and who is sincere, but never, ever is there any indication that we should not at least try to obey Jesus, or that people who practice the teachings of Jesus would be punished for doing so because they didn't say "Lord Jesus is my savior". They show by their actions that they are citizens of the kingdom of Heaven when they practice the values of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It makes no sense whatsoever that God will reject people who respond to his spirit (since God is the source of love people can only show love by responding to his spirit) just because they didn't say the proper prayer or use the correct titles/names for God. Remember Moses? When he asked, " who should I say has sent me" God responded by giving him an unpronounceable series of consonants which translates to "I am whatever I want to be".

"They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another". Jn 13:35

"If you follow my teachings, then you will be my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free" Jn 8:31

"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples". Jn 15:8

None of these verses suggest a need to speak the correct name of God, to speak the name of Jesus, or to perform any religious observance to be right with God. The emphasis in all these teachings is the promotion of the Kingdom of Heaven by acting on the values of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:46; 13:25 calling on the name of Jesus is enough if you are doing the will of the Father.

The word of God never changes as it's the same yesterday, today and forever It is only man that blinds themselves from what has already been written as they follow the doctrines of man and not the doctrines of Christ. There is no formula or special prayers we say in order to be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

[RevSRE]

If someone doesn't know about Christ, and has never heard of Christ, then where do they go when they die?
"They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another". Jn 13:35

"If you follow my teachings, then you will be my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free" Jn 8:31


This is "ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS" The answer is in the will of GOD, it is way beyond my responsibility.
I am responsible for " WAHT IS RANDY doing with JESUS?
we sing a hymn " Turn your eyes upon Jesus Look full in His wonderful face..."
The point should be I am to busy with showing others JESUS to judge if ANYONE is saved.
I live for JESUS.
the SPIRIT calls people to Jesus.
JESUS SAVES!!

We need to keep the order stright, MY place is only to live so others see JESUS in me,
HE IS MORE THAN ABLE TO DO THE REST!

 

[chessman]

But as he was considering these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for what has been conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.​

Matthew 1:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 1:20&version=LEB

The Lord is perfectly capable of communicating to anybody, anywhere, anything He so chooses. Commanding His disciples to spread His Word around the world is an honor, not God’s only means.

 

[john darling]

Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:46; 13:25 calling on the name of Jesus is enough if you are doing the will of the Father.

Yep, if you do the will of the father; not if you use the correct title. So, getting back to the topic of the thread, if a person who does not know the name of Jesus shows love to his neighbor, is he doing the will of God?

 

[john darling]

nobody said this had to be out loud we can confess with our mouth and no body hear us

People have said two things; we must call on the name of the lord, and that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation. Think about how contradictory that is.

Call on the name of the lord, be baptized, say the sinners prayer, tithe, fellowship with other Christians, perform praise and worship, read your Bible, believe and repent; these are all activities which the average Christian would argue must be performed in order to be saved, and yet they all require us to do something.

The "salvation by works" argument is almost only ever brought out when it comes to discussing the specifics of the teachings of Jesus. You can look back at the posts on this thread to see it in action. As soon as I suggested a person who does not know the name of Jesus could still be saved by loving his neighbor (i.e. a teaching of Jesus), some people trotted out the salvation-by-works argument to refute that suggestion.

 

[RevSRE]

People have said two things; we must call on the name of the lord, and that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation. Think about how contradictory that is.

Call on the name of the lord, be baptized, say the sinners prayer, tithe, fellowship with other Christians, perform praise and worship, read your Bible, believe and repent; these are all activities which the average Christian would argue must be performed in order to be saved, and yet they all require us to do something.

The "salvation by works" argument is almost only ever brought out when it comes to discussing the specifics of the teachings of Jesus. You can look back at the posts on this thread to see it in action. As soon as I suggested a person who does not know the name of Jesus could still be saved by loving his neighbor (i.e. a teaching of Jesus), some people trotted out the salvation-by-works argument to refute that suggestion.

THERE Are TWO points here. First there is BEING SAVED. IT is by Grace God required it, planned it and paid the price for it. All we do is accept the gift. Second: All the rest you listed must fall under living a saved life.
The Question about someone that never heard the name of Jesus is just a question WE CANNOT ANSWER God will take care of that He knows who heard and who did not. We are to spend our time our life living so others see Jesus, We must be about the work of telling everyone we can who Jesus is and Living an example of Christian life for them.
WE DO OUR PART AND GOD WILL DO HIS PART.

 

[TheGoldenThread]

Which is why I use such a stupid example to try and show what they are doing.

Sorry, it wasn't whether or not the example was something that you agree with, or it was saying that to prove the point that God wants us to obey Him.

In peace

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe that those who live in remote villages that have no contact outside of their village God would somehow reveal Himself to them. As RevSRE said, this is a question that can not be answered as only God knows who are His own.

 

[john darling]

I believe that those who live in remote villages that have no contact outside of their village God would somehow reveal Himself to them.

He that hath my commandments, (John 13:34) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him. John 14:21


According to Jesus, he reveals himself to us through our love for one another. If a person who has never heard of Jesus shows love to his neighbor, he will know the spirit of Jesus even though he doesn't know the name of Jesus. This is because Jesus is more than just a religious icon. We don't get salvation because we preform a special prayer, or say the correct words, or perform the correct religious observances, which means neither do we lose salvation for not performing these actions.

 

[for_his_glory]

He that hath my commandments, (John 13:34) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him. John 14:21


According to Jesus, he reveals himself to us through our love for one another. If a person who has never heard of Jesus shows love to his neighbor, he will know the spirit of Jesus even though he doesn't know the name of Jesus. This is because Jesus is more than just a religious icon. We don't get salvation because we preform a special prayer, or say the correct words, or perform the correct religious observances, which means neither do we lose salvation for not performing these actions.

How can one that has never heard the name of Jesus even know the spirit of Jesus or God's commandments. What we think love is and what is already written are two different things. Good intentions alone does not gives us a place in the kingdom of God.

How can one have faith and trust in something they never heard of. Look at all the various religions in the world that have not the love of the Father, but yet think their religion is the perfect one.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

How can one totally ignore that which is already written!!!

 

[Who Me]

How can one have faith and trust in something they never heard of

because God says:-
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Ignorance of the law is never an excuse in any legal system.