Infant Baptism

[Seasoned by Grace]

On this topic of infant baptism;
Remember everyone, it's much easier to have all the right scriptures and post them here, and have all truth in word, but Is much harder to LIVE THE TRUTH daily from your heart, if the truth is just "KNOWLEDGE" and doesn't "LIVE" in your heart.

So much of what I read here in this thread is just unsupported knowledge handed down from family to family, traditions, that have no scriptural validity, opposing Gods truth, just like the Jews have done for centuries.

We're talking "LEGALISM" here and "RULE KEEPING with no proper connection to God through our love of God, that isn't just something we talk about, but live daily", through the truth of His word, not a twisted version, that leads many astray'
A lot of church goers have learned all the right words to say to sound righteous, the Christianeze language, but for many it's just a show, a mask, to cover up who they truly are. Seen it many, many times, even pastors.

Godly truth like Godly love is is a super-natural Godly quality, not like natural love that the world has.

All of what God require of us to be like Christ, are all super-natural qualities totally unobtainable by man.
We need to pray and ask God Himself for these changes and quality's in our lives, or live frustrated trying on our own without the results we want. Failure and and everlasting destruction.

That's what makes Christianity so unique and beyond man in His "Natural state without God".
Access to the true Godly way that leads to eternal glory in Christ, is denied without receiving the super-natural salvation from the super-natural Christ. NATURAL vs. SUPER_NATURAL

The more you focus on the the truth that all of Christianity is SUPER-NATURAL, and impossible to achieve," without the influence and participation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, the more time you will spend praying and asking for those Character traits, instead of wrestling with your impossible efforts to achieve them on your own and the frustrations and failure that come with it.

The root of so much of what I read here on infant baptism is "NATURAL"traditions in support of infant baptism, and an ungodly justification with hollow "NATURAL" words that have been passed down from family to family, and heard so often, they become truths to live by, but have no root in Christs teachings and truth.'The words I hear here are "NATURAL" words to support the validity of infant baptism, not the SUPER-NATURAL words of God, because He doesn't speak or validate the idea of "NATURAL" man made traditions of infant baptism, and the falsehoods attached to salvation through this practice.

God bless you all as you search out together the truths of God's word.

My name is OLIGOS

 

[Mungo]

Who uses extra biblical evidence over scripture?


Please use scripture to validate doctrine.

JLB

JLB,
Over the last 2 days I've been pondering our discussion and there is something I want to say regarding your post because is shows what I consider is a problem in any discussion between Catholics and Protestants.

I will use infant baptism to make my point.
Belief: I believe that infant baptism has the same effect on infants as it does on adults;
- all sins are forgiven, original sin and (adults only) all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.
- makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted child of God, who has become a partaker of the divine nature
- makes us members of the Body of Christ; incorporates us into the Church and into the New Covenant.

Question: Why do I believe that?

Answer: because that is what the Catholic Church teaches; it is a formally and authoritatively defined doctrine.

It does not need to be validated.

It can be supported by scripture and by the witness of the Early Church Fathers (as I did in the post you responded to).

Question: But what if such a doctrine contradicts scripture?

Answer: It cannot. No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted). By Catholic doctrine I mean one that is formally and authoritatively defined by the Magisterioum of the Catholic Church.

 

[JLB]

JLB,
Over the last 2 days I've been pondering our discussion and there is something I want to say regarding your post because is shows what I consider is a problem in any discussion between Catholics and Protestants.

I will use infant baptism to make my point.
Belief: I believe that infant baptism has the same effect on infants as it does on adults;
- all sins are forgiven, original sin and (adults only) all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.
- makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted child of God, who has become a partaker of the divine nature
- makes us members of the Body of Christ; incorporates us into the Church and into the New Covenant.

Question: Why do I believe that?

Answer: because that is what the Catholic Church teaches; it is a formally and authoritatively defined doctrine.

It does not need to be validated.

It can be supported by scripture and by the witness of the Early Church Fathers (as I did in the post you responded to).

Question: But what if such a doctrine contradicts scripture?

Answer: It cannot. No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted). By Catholic doctrine I mean one that is formally and authoritatively defined by the Magisterioum of the Catholic Church.

Thanks for your reply.


Please explain how an infant can believe the Gospel?


JLB

 

[Mungo]

Thanks for your reply.


Please explain how an infant can believe the Gospel?


JLB

It is not necessary for an infant to believe the gospel
As I said in post #25:
Faith is required but an infant cannot have faith.
However parents and God-parents make a profession of faith on behalf of the infant and the parents, assisted by the God-parents, promise to bring the child to faith by teaching them about Jesus.

 

[JLB]

It is not necessary for an infant to believe the gospel
As I said in post #25:
Faith is required but an infant cannot have faith.
However parents and God-parents make a profession of faith on behalf of the infant and the parents, assisted by the God-parents, promise to bring the child to faith by teaching them about Jesus.

How can anyone possibly say this is biblical?

Each person must choose to believe and therefore obey the Gospel or not.


Parents can indeed teach their children in the way they should go but it’s up to each person to believe and commit himself to the Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The more you focus on the the truth that all of Christianity is SUPER-NATURAL, and impossible to achieve," without the influence and participation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, the more time you will spend praying and asking for those Character traits, instead of wrestling with your impossible efforts to achieve them on your own and the frustrations and failure that come with it.

This is the truth that each of us must come to understand in our own personal supernatural life we live with God dwelling within us.


JLB

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

This is the truth that each of us must come to understand in our own personal supernatural life we live with God dwelling within us.


JLB

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN !!!

 

[Mungo]

Thanks for your reply.


Please explain how an infant can believe the Gospel?


JLB

I respect your opinion JLB but I disagree with it.

 

[JLB]

I respect your opinion JLB but I disagree with it.

Ok.

 

[Walpole]

How can anyone possibly say this is biblical?

Each person must choose to believe and therefore obey the Gospel or not.


Parents can indeed teach their children in the way they should go but it’s up to each person to believe and commit himself to the Lord.


JLB

It's biblical because it is found in the Bible. Here it is in practice...

Example 1:

Acts 2:38-39 ---> "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

St. Peter's famous sermon references the Prophet Joel, who prophesied the coming of grace and the sanctification of the people, which included children and infants (those that "suck the breasts")...

Joel 2:16 ---> "Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet."

What Joel prophesied is the coming of grace and the sanctification of God's people, which included infants. It is St. Peter who states the sanctification for God's people (including infants) promised by Joel is now fulfilled by receiving the Holy Spirit in baptism.



Example 2:

Entire households (without exception) were baptized in the early Church...
---> Acts 16:15
---> Acts 16:33
---> 1 Cor 1:16



Example 3:

And we have the words of our Blessed Lord Himself…

“Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.’” (Luke 18:15-16)


What these verses demonstrate is that there is no age restriction on who can enter the kingdom of God. Would you force your children to live outside of your house until they are old enough to profess membership in your household? I would hope not. So too Christian parents do not exclude their children from the household of God.

 

[JLB]

It's biblical because it is found in the Bible. Here it is in practice...

Example 1:

Acts 2:38-39 ---> "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

How can an infant choose to repent, which how we believe, and therefore obey the Gospel?


An infant is innocent.

 

[Walpole]

How can an infant choose to repent, which how we believe, and therefore obey the Gospel?


An infant is innocent.

Infants have no need to repent because they are incapable of committing sin, for they do not have full use of their facilities. Hence they have nothing to be repentant for. It is similar to those with a mental handicap. However, that in no way precludes them from receiving baptism. For once again, St. Peter is explicit baptism is for "you and your children".

Furthermore, our Blessed Lord said the kingdom of God belongs to little children and we are not to hinder them.

Matthew 19:14 ---> But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[JLB]

Infants have no need to repent because they are incapable of committing sin, for they do not have full use of their facilities. Hence they have nothing to be repentant for. It is similar to those with a mental handicap. However, that in no way precludes them from receiving baptism. For once again, St. Peter is explicit baptism is for "you and your children".

I agree children are innocent.

Baptism without believing is no more than a bath.

 

[Walpole]

I agree children are innocent.

Baptism without believing is no more than a bath.

What age do you think people can enter the kingdom of God?


We are born again in the waters of baptism and hence it is through baptism that we are given "newness of life". (cf. Romans 6:4) Recall St. Paul also calls baptism "the circumcision of Christ" (Col 2:11-12). Jesus wasn't circumcised at 30, but rather as an infant. (It is not a coincidence baptistries in antiquity were octagonal - as baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision, symbolized by the eighth day / the figure eight --> 1 Peter 3:20-21).


I find this objection to baptizing children from anti-sacramentalists to be absurd. If baptism is nothing more than "a bath", why would you care about how or when Christians baptize people?

 

[JLB]

I thought it was faith? Have you changed your mind now?

The definition of love is keeping His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

• This is how we remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


Keeping His commandments is how we love.

Keeping Hs commandments is how we remain in His love.

Keeping His commandments is how we remain in Him.

Love is how we remain in Him.


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10




JLB

 

[JLB]

What age do you think people can enter the kingdom of God?

As soon as they can believe.

 

[JLB]

We are born again in the waters of baptism and hence it is through baptism that we are given "newness of life". (cf. Romans 6:4) Recall St. Paul also calls baptism "the circumcision of Christ" (Col 2:11-12). Jesus wasn't circumcised at 30, but rather as an infant. (It is not a coincidence baptistries in antiquity were octagonal - as baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision, symbolized by the eighth day / the figure eight --> 1 Peter 3:20-21).

Sorry bro, water baptism is about death.

Identifying with the likeness of His death.


Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, Romans 6:4-5


Being born again is about birth, the new birth.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
John 3:5-12

• If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Jesus used natural birth to teach Nicodemus about Spiritual birth.




JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Infant baptism makes you a member of God's kingdom. The sooner you do it the better.

Like this:
I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. (pouring water over their head)

Mark 10
“Let the children come to me! Don't try to stop them. People who are like these little children belong to the kingdom of God.+ 15 I promise you that you cannot get into God's kingdom, unless you accept it the way a child does.” 16Then Jesus took the children in his arms and blessed them by placing his hands on them.

--The purpose of baptism is 'for the remission of sins" Acts 2:38. Children have no sins to be remitted.

--from the logical sequence of events of Mk 16:16 one must have the mental capacity to believe BEFORE being baptized which infants do not. Infants have not even develop language skills to communicate ideas as the teaching of the gospel.

--baptism is a burial (Rom 6:4; Acts 8:38-39) not a pouring.

--Mark 10:14-15
"for of such is the kingdom of God"
Jesus did not say little children are in the kingdom but that little children possess certain traits and a person must possess those traits, be "like" little children in order to enter the kingdom. Membership in the kingdom requires a person to have the ability to have faith, ability to obey, that is, ability to do the will of the Father, (Mt 7:21) to enter the kingdom. Jer 31:33-34 the OT prophecy about the NT covenant requires one to 'know' the Lord to be in the kingdom...."If the so-called baptism of an infant can make him a member of the kingdom of God, then such a person is saved without being taught, without repentance, without confession, without the new birth, and without anything under the sun except a few drops of water. That is truly "water salvation," and it should be rejected as foreign to everything in the New Testament. " Coffman Commentaries. Christianity is a taught religion and it is God's plan that through preaching of the gospel men would be saved, 1 Cor 1:21; Mk 16:15-16; Rom 1:16. One is born again...by the word (1 Pet 1:23) which requires one being "taught" to have "heard" and "learn" (Jn 6:45) requires "obeying the truth" (1 Pet 1:22). Those that become Christians have the responsibility to teach others (Mt 28:19-20) do good works (Eph 2:10). All meaning infants are not candidates for baptism.

 

[JLB]

--The purpose of baptism is 'for the remission of sins" Acts 2:38. Children have no sins to be remitted.

--from the logical sequence of events of Mk 16:16 one must have the mental capacity to believe BEFORE being baptized which infants do not. Infants have not even develop language skills to communicate ideas as the teaching of the gospel.

--baptism is a burial (Rom 6:4; Acts 8:38-39) not a pouring.

--Mark 10:14-15
"for of such is the kingdom of God"
Jesus did not say little children are in the kingdom but that little children possess certain traits and a person must possess those traits, be "like" little children in order to enter the kingdom. Membership in the kingdom requires a person to have the ability to have faith, ability to obey, that is, ability to do the will of the Father, (Mt 7:21) to enter the kingdom. Jer 31:33-34 the OT prophecy about the NT covenant requires one to 'know' the Lord to be in the kingdom...."If the so-called baptism of an infant can make him a member of the kingdom of God, then such a person is saved without being taught, without repentance, without confession, without the new birth, and without anything under the sun except a few drops of water. That is truly "water salvation," and it should be rejected as foreign to everything in the New Testament. " Coffman Commentaries. Christianity is a taught religion and it is God's plan that through preaching of the gospel men would be saved, 1 Cor 1:21; Mk 16:15-16; Rom 1:16. One is born again...by the word (1 Pet 1:23) which requires one being "taught" to have "heard" and "learn" (Jn 6:45) requires "obeying the truth" (1 Pet 1:22). Those that become Christians have the responsibility to teach others (Mt 28:19-20) do good works (Eph 2:10). All meaning infants are not candidates for baptism.

Amen