Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

So do you think the infants go to hell?

No, I don't believe that children who die are lost to Hell. I believe that they are "safe" until they reach a point where they know the difference between right and wrong, and then choose wrong. That is sin, and separates them from God. Until that point, they are still pure, and as Jesus said, the Kingdom of God belongs to such as they.

 

[Doug Brents]

I didn't read all that you wrote with what Jesus stated. I reject your qualifier.

Those that are born of God already have the Spirit. Why would they need to ask for something they already have?

My qualifier? I didn't think I had written the Scriptures. I am only 47 years old, not nearly 2000. I didn't write any of what is in the Bible. I am just pointing it out to you.

No one is "born of God" until he has been immersed. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be immersed, and [then] you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Rom 6:2-3 says that we join Christ when we are immersed into Him, and in that immersion we die to sin, and arise in resurrection with Him. These things do not happen when we "ask Him into our heart", or "say a prayer confessing that we are a sinner", or any other humanistic nonsense. It is obedience to God or Hell. There is no other option.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

My qualifier? I didn't think I had written the Scriptures. I am only 47 years old, not nearly 2000. I didn't write any of what is in the Bible. I am just pointing it out to you.

No one is "born of God" until he has been immersed. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be immersed, and [then] you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Rom 6:2-3 says that we join Christ when we are immersed into Him, and in that immersion we die to sin, and arise in resurrection with Him. These things do not happen when we "ask Him into our heart", or "say a prayer confessing that we are a sinner", or any other humanistic nonsense. It is obedience to God or Hell. There is no other option.

1 Peter 3:21; says that baptism does not save us from the body but rather is a pledge of good conscience toward God.

 

[WIP]

No one is "born of God" until he has been immersed. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be immersed, and [then] you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

One can be filled with the Holy Spirit without being immersed in water baptism.

Luke 1:15 tells us about John, the baptist, being filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.

Luke 1:41 tells of John's mother, Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit. To our knowledge baptism was not practiced at this time.

Luke 1:67 tells of John's Father, Zecharias, being filled with the Holy Spirit after his tongue was loosed again. Again, to our knowledge baptism was not a thing yet.

Acts 2:4 tells us about 120 disciples of Jesus that were gathered and filled with the Holy Spirit. Scripture doesn't tell us if all of them were water baptized. Actually, we don't have record of all of the 12 apostles, who were there, having been water baptized either before or after this.

Acts 4:31 tells about a large group of Jesus' disciples' companions being filled with the Holy Spirit. We are not told how many nor are we told they were all baptized but they all were filled with the Holy Spirit after praying.

Acts 9:17 tells about Saul receiving his sight and being filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

Some of these above we just don't know if they were baptized before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit but in Acts 10:44-48 we read of gentiles being filled with the Holy Spirit and most definitely afterwards Peter commands for them to be baptized.

 

[Randy]

My qualifier? I didn't think I had written the Scriptures. I am only 47 years old, not nearly 2000. I didn't write any of what is in the Bible. I am just pointing it out to you.

No one is "born of God" until he has been immersed. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be immersed, and [then] you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Rom 6:2-3 says that we join Christ when we are immersed into Him, and in that immersion we die to sin, and arise in resurrection with Him. These things do not happen when we "ask Him into our heart", or "say a prayer confessing that we are a sinner", or any other humanistic nonsense. It is obedience to God or Hell. There is no other option.

That does not limit Jesus who said ask and receive for the "gift" of the Spirit. The qualifier Jesus gave repeatedly in regard to salvation was to believe in Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

That does not limit Jesus who said ask and receive for the "gift" of the Spirit. The qualifier Jesus gave repeatedly in regard to salvation was to believe in Him.

Yes, the qualifier He gave during His life was to believe. Then just before He arose into Heaven, He told the Apostles to go and preach about Him. Anyone who "believes and is immersed will be saved." This is almost the last thing He said; the thing He wanted to be most recent in the Apostles minds. And there is no ambiguity in His statement.

 

[Doug Brents]

1 Peter 3:21; says that baptism does not save us from the body but rather is a pledge of good conscience toward God.

An erroneous interpretation. 1 Pet 3:21 doesn't say that we are not saved by immersion. "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," The verse prior says that Noah and his family were saved through the water of the Flood. And that is an example of what now saves us. This passage is contrasting NT immersion with the Law (of Moses) said immersions that were to remove outward (fleshly) filth to "cleanse" a person, ie: the washing of hands, feet, dishes, etc. In contrast, NT immersion is not for the cleansing of fleshly filth from the body (outwardly), but the cleansing done by the Holy Spirit to our soul (inwardly).

 

[Doug Brents]

One can be filled with the Holy Spirit without being immersed in water baptism.

Luke 1:15 tells us about John, the baptist, being filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.

Luke 1:41 tells of John's mother, Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit. To our knowledge baptism was not practiced at this time.

Luke 1:67 tells of John's Father, Zecharias, being filled with the Holy Spirit after his tongue was loosed again. Again, to our knowledge baptism was not a thing yet.

Acts 2:4 tells us about 120 disciples of Jesus that were gathered and filled with the Holy Spirit. Scripture doesn't tell us if all of them were water baptized. Actually, we don't have record of all of the 12 apostles, who were there, having been water baptized either before or after this.

Acts 4:31 tells about a large group of Jesus' disciples' companions being filled with the Holy Spirit. We are not told how many nor are we told they were all baptized but they all were filled with the Holy Spirit after praying.

Acts 9:17 tells about Saul receiving his sight and being filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

Some of these above we just don't know if they were baptized before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit but in Acts 10:44-48 we read of gentiles being filled with the Holy Spirit and most definitely afterwards Peter commands for them to be baptized.

First off, the first three of these examples are from the time when the OT was still in effect (even though they appear in the NT Gospels). They do not have any bearing on this discussion.

Acts 9 is retold in Acts 22, and in Acts 22 we see a better picture of the timing of Saul's reception of the Holy Spirit. He received the Holy Spirit when he was immersed to wash away his sins.

Acts 4 refers to Peter and John going back to their companions there in Jerusalem. Their companions were undoubtedly other members of the Church, because they supported Peter and John, and gave glory to God for His providence and deliverance of Peter and John. These men already had the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit came upon them more strongly, or in greater effect. But these men already had the Spirit.

And Acts 2 is, like Acts 10 and 11, not a relevant event because that is the coming of the Kingdom of God to the Jews and Gentiles respectively. You are correct that we don't have record of the Apostles being immersed. I would assume that they were either immersed (by each other or maybe John) during Jesus ministry, or more likely they were immersed into Christ on Pentecost after Peter preached to the crowd. But I do know that they were immersed into Christ at some point.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

An erroneous interpretation. 1 Pet 3:21 doesn't say that we are not saved by immersion. "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," The verse prior says that Noah and his family were saved through the water of the Flood. And that is an example of what now saves us. This passage is contrasting NT immersion with the Law (of Moses) said immersions that were to remove outward (fleshly) filth to "cleanse" a person, ie: the washing of hands, feet, dishes, etc. In contrast, NT immersion is not for the cleansing of fleshly filth from the body (outwardly), but the cleansing done by the Holy Spirit to our soul (inwardly).

Wow!
You read all that into a few verses.
You must be a genius!

 

[Doug Brents]

Wow!
You read all that into a few verses.
You must be a genius!

Can the sarcasm!

Yes. There is a lot you can unpack out out of just a few verses. And my comments were supported and moderated by other passages like Rom 6:1-6, Col 2:11-15, Eph 5:25-27 and others.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you don't believe that Jesus said, "He who believes and is immersed will be saved."? Commands don't get much more clear than that. And then Peter, in the first sermon preached in the new Kingdom, taught exactly what Jesus said when he commanded, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." How do you "receive Him"? How are you "born again"? Both answers are the same: by being "immersed into Him" (Rom 6:1-6).

I believe I've stated that Jesus said we are to be baptized and I do believe we should be.
I just cannot go as far as you go.

Your belief is that if someone believes in Jesus but is not baptized he will be lost.
I read that if we believe in Jesus and are born from above, we will be saved.

Then we must also be baptized....but if we die in the meantime,,,we will be saved because we believe in God and in His Son, the Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Take a quick look at the inscription of the charge against Jesus on the Cross. It is specifically mentioned in all four of the Gospels. But if you look closely, it is different in each one. Two of them mention that it is in three languages, but the other two do not. If you only read one of the passages, you may not learn that it was in three languages. And if you only read one passage, you may come away with the idea that it was the soldier's idea to write the charge, when in reality it was Pilate who commanded the charge to be written. And there are other differences as well.

My point is, that if we only look at a few passages and exclude others from our research, we may get a skewed idea about what Scripture really says about a subject. Yes, we are commanded to believe, but if we stop with just the passages that say believe, we may miss other passages that command repentance as well, and also confession of Jesus' Name, and also immersion. All must be done, or none of them have meaning.

Doug,
I'm not saying that it's not necessary to be baptized.
The early church baptized for the forgiveness of sin.
The early church believed that after baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit,
persons would stop sinning.
But they did not.

Thus the reason public confession came about and then private confession...and so on till we have the confession of the CC. This is how it developed.

Jesus told the Apostles to teach and to baptize.
I may be wrong...time will tell...but I find it hard to believe God would send one to hell because they were not baptized.

Were persons baptized before Jesus?
No.
So they went to hell?

Who were all those persons in Abraham's Bossom in Luke 16:19........
Were they baptized?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Can the sarcasm!

Yes. There is a lot you can unpack out out of just a few verses. And my comments were supported and moderated by other passages like Rom 6:1-6, Col 2:11-15, Eph 5:25-27 and others.

I kind of like you.
I can see you'll be easy pickin's

 

[GodsGrace]

Then how are they saved?
Or do they all just go to hell?

The CC believes we are saved just like we Protestants believe we are saved.
By believing in Jesus as our Savior.

They do, however, believe we get grace through sacraments.
Sacraments are not a bad thing.

So they baptize infants but they teach that a person must come to believe in their
baptism, accept it and accept Jesus as Lord.

And live a life accordingly.

 

[jerry63935]

Then how are children saved?

just like adults by grace

 

[jerry63935]

One can be filled with the Holy Spirit without being immersed in water baptism.

exactly amen

 

[Randy]

Yes, the qualifier He gave during His life was to believe. Then just before He arose into Heaven, He told the Apostles to go and preach about Him. Anyone who "believes and is immersed will be saved." This is almost the last thing He said; the thing He wanted to be most recent in the Apostles minds. And there is no ambiguity in His statement.

No one is against baptism. But in regard to condemned He only stated those that didn't believe. He didn't state those that weren't baptized.

Irregardless this issue was infant baptism.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There's nothing wrong with infant baptism.
It's tradition.
When a person gets older and is born again, the Holy Spirit will convict them that immersion is the thing to do.

 

[Doug Brents]

I believe I've stated that Jesus said we are to be baptized and I do believe we should be.
I just cannot go as far as you go.

Your belief is that if someone believes in Jesus but is not baptized he will be lost.
I read that if we believe in Jesus and are born from above, we will be saved.

Then we must also be baptized....but if we die in the meantime,,,we will be saved because we believe in God and in His Son, the Christ.

The problem with that belief is that it is not supported by Scripture. There is no indication anywhere in the NT that there was any time allowed to elapse between when a person believed, and when they were immersed. The ministers of the Gospel believed that strongly in immersion that they did it immediately (even that same hour of the night, they didn't wait till morning much less a "baptismal service" three weeks from now).

I agree that if we believe in Jesus AND are born from above we will be saved, but we are not "born from above" until we are immersed (Rom 6:1-6 & Col 2:11-15). These two passages both say that it is in the water that the Spirit takes action and we are born again.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug,
I'm not saying that it's not necessary to be baptized.
The early church baptized for the forgiveness of sin.
The early church believed that after baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit,
persons would stop sinning.
But they did not.

Thus the reason public confession came about and then private confession...and so on till we have the confession of the CC. This is how it developed.

Jesus told the Apostles to teach and to baptize.
I may be wrong...time will tell...but I find it hard to believe God would send one to hell because they were not baptized.

Were persons baptized before Jesus?
No.
So they went to hell?

Who were all those persons in Abraham's Bossom in Luke 16:19........
Were they baptized?

No, they didn't believe that we would stop sinning after we are saved. That teaching is directly contradicted by a large amount of Paul's teaching.

As for the people who lived from Adam to Pentecost, they were under the OT, and subject to a different set of commands. When the perfect came, the imperfect was eliminated. As Jesus said, not one jot or tittle will be done away with until all is accomplished. Then on the cross He said, "It is finished." He had fulfilled the Law, and so it was canceled in favor of the NT. No, none of the people in Abraham's Bossom were immersed, because that was not a commandment during the OT, but it is in the NT.