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15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

If all were to be symbolic, then the verse the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! would be symbolic as well, and we know it is literal.

Rightly divide the word.


JLB
 
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

If all were to be symbolic, then the verse the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! would be symbolic as well, and we know it is literal.

Rightly divide the word.


JLB

Does anyone here believe That The Lamb refers to Jesus?

That Him who sits on the throne refers to God the Father?

That the Day of the Lord, is what is referred to in verse 17 - For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

I find it interesting that those who always seem to explain away the scriptures with a sweep of the hand by saying this is symbolic, never seem to be able to explain what the symbolism means, as if because it was symbolic language, then some how it isn't real.


In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. Revelation 9:6

Nothing symbolic about this verse, just the simple truth.

What's else is simple truth is, the sacking of Jerusalem for a second time, certainly isn't the great tribulation that Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse, which says -

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22


JLB
 
with two heads even.

Hello Jasoncran
(would enjoy your feedback on my reasoning which follows)

Both Jerusalems destruction (v20) and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" (v27) are mentioned in Luke 21.

In verse 32 Jesus says that a (one) generation "this generation" will not die (pass away) until "all" be fulfilled.

Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL" mentioned in verse 32

Therefore, Jesus is plainly saying that one generation would remain alive to see both Jerusalems
destruction and his "coming in the clouds"

Question to all futurists:
How is this possible?
 
Does anyone here believe That The Lamb refers to Jesus?

I'm not a gambler but I'd put a few bucks on Everyone here knows that the Lamb is symbolic for Jesus. The Lamb is not a lamb that says bah, bah ...

That's the whole point, so much of Revelation is totally symbolic. But sometimes by study, doing word and phrase searches so things can become clearer.



In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. Revelation 9:6

JLB, maybe if you would read about what the 70 AD siege was like for the people in Jerusalem, you might think differently about how they may very well, want to die. I would have welcomed death in their situations. The Zealots, raped and killed, women ate their own babies, they ate from dung piles.
From what I've read, what they did and went through, was so much worse than any flood could have been. I'd much rather die in a flood than in starvation, burned, etc. and the horror went on for years.
The elect were from the remnant that God had set apart for salvation. I can even see that if God had not stopped it, it may have spread to other cities even to where the Christian Jews were.
 

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:15-17

In reading A few passages here in The Revelation there I see a strong relationship to the prophesy/ warning in Ezekiel 7 ... In reading in context this verse in very different the standing alone.... We know the scriptures were not written in chapter and verse. Don't get me wrong I like the Chapter and verses....

I see the birth, life, death, resurrection of Jesus ... His Cross that includes everything as the center of God's world or of time. All of the OT points to the Cross as does the NT.. I am not just thinking of 33 AD the hour of His Cross . God planned this sacrifice from the foundations of the world.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I see most of The Revelation as the revealing of Christ. Much of it having to do with the generation who murdered Him. ( Jesus gave His life for my sin.. God sent Him. The Jewish leaders pushed and the Romans did the dirty work) That whole time span.. Has great importance ..Not being good with words I will leave this.. to be picked apart... :)
 
What am i going to do with you reba its not "your" Antichrist unless you accept him.. and I'm thinking you don't but the unbelievers certainly have/do/will.. because Jesus said they will.

tob
 
with two heads even.

Hello Jasoncran
(would enjoy your feedback on my reasoning which follows)

Both Jerusalems destruction (v20) and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" (v27) are mentioned in Luke 21.

In verse 32 Jesus says that a (one) generation "this generation" will not die (pass away) until "all" be fulfilled.

Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL" mentioned in verse 32

Therefore, Jesus is plainly saying that one generation would remain alive to see both Jerusalems
destruction and his "coming in the clouds"

Question to all futurists:
How is this possible?
its not all doesn't mean all to them. that is the problem I have
 
Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL" mentioned in verse 32


20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Here is that event that pertains to both Jerusalem being surrounded, and the return of the Lord Jesus. This is not 70 AD.


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.

This scripture about the future return of the Lord Jesus.

The event has not taken place.

The city is surrounded, just as Jesus predicted.

The Lord returns to the Mount of Olives, where He gave His Discourse.

This event is at the end of the age, when Jesus fights against His enemies.

This event involves the signs in the heavens.

Luke 21 and Zechariah 14 concern the Return of the Lord Jesus.


Question explained, for the 10th time!


JLB
 
they don't.

when he says when ye shall see Jerusalem surrounded by her enemies know that her desolation draweth nigh? he either didn't mean or he didn't mean that he would let it happen or what? zechariah 14 says he defends isreal from her enemies. luke 21, matthew 24 don't say that at all.
 
they don't.

when he says when ye shall see Jerusalem surrounded by her enemies know that her desolation draweth nigh? he either didn't mean or he didn't mean that he would let it happen or what? zechariah 14 says he defends isreal from her enemies. luke 21, matthew 24 don't say that at all.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

You must have a different bible.


JLB
 
ah yes I forgot that you think the entire jewish race is to be blamed for the murder of the jesus.

uhm did you ever think that was in ad 70? nah

you realize that no one was left alive in Jerusalem all that remained in that city died. the people who fled or weren't there repopulated. you forget this part.

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.



Show Commentary

King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain
so you somehow think after the decimation of the jews of that level only 144,000 being as such.so he judges them they don't repent, they believe in the ac and then he comes rescues them from his armies that makes sense. I didn't read that post I as reacted to quickly.so now I will address the zechariah 14 post.
 
ok.so you expect another scattering of the jews as that is what said. how long with this diaspora be? you do realize that isreal as a nation since it at it widest 25 miles would be involved and defeated and sent away by the armies. hmm. that is kinda what happened in the past. the armies didn't meet at Jerusalem but a harmegiddo. they lost and Jerusalem was taken.
 
I will also add that in order for the earth to survive the stars to fall how do you account for a g class star or bigger hitting the earth literally? falling comets would damage the earth if they were massive enough and also a ton of them hitting the earth simulataneously we have evidence of this already. climate change has been caused by my volcanic ash.
 
ah yes I forgot that you think the entire jewish race is to be blamed for the murder of the jesus.

uhm did you ever think that was in ad 70? nah

you realize that no one was left alive in Jerusalem all that remained in that city died. the people who fled or weren't there repopulated. you forget this part.

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.




Show Commentary

King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain
so you somehow think after the decimation of the jews of that level only 144,000 being as such.so he judges them they don't repent, they believe in the ac and then he comes rescues them from his armies that makes sense. I didn't read that post I as reacted to quickly.so now I will address the zechariah 14 post.

I guess this means you now see my point, and have chosen to change the subject as you so often do.


JLB
 
no I get your point. you believe that god would judge any man for his father sin.the problem with that is this then we could by that logic pass laws requiring children of the sinners or parents to die or do time for that crime. yet the torah doesn say that what it does say it says if they continue hating and doing the same type of sins. that is supported. your position isn't. the modern jews wouldn't kill them as most don't believe in theocracy.modern isreal isn't a theocracy, but a secular jewish state. with jews being the leading tribe

using your argurment I will them add this. you missed this part to be taken literally. a jew then must have kohen to offer the praise offering to the Lord in the temple. since in ole zeke it has a law on that the prince(not the messiah) will atone for the people sins and have the kohen do that. you then must acknowledge a return to the law.!

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

with the the idea that jews call the King of the universe the YHWH. that is how a jew would see that.
 
with the the idea that jews call the King of the universe the YHWH. that is how a jew would see that.


Jesus is YHWH.

As Zechariah teaches us -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


JLB
 
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